Who will bond Yelig-Nar?

[Ciridae]

Whoever bonds Yelig-Nar is going to be a pretty heavy hitter. I think Aesudan and Amaram were meant to show YN off a bit before someone bonds him for real (read: more than five minutes). For them to really be scary they would need to be far more comfortable with their new form and all of the surges.

On another note, YN was on standby while Odium tried to turn Dalinar into his champion, so I think there was a pretty good chance Dalinar would have bonded YN if he had accepted. 

So who do you think will bond with YN? I don't think it'll be Moash and I don't think it can be a singer. 

I think it could potentially be Malata. 

(Or May Aladar ) 

[+Invocation]

It would have to be someone under Odium's direct supervision, since Yelig-Nar would otherwise just eat their soul like he did to Aesudan. Whoever becomes his official champion will, I believe, though it won't be Malata, probably, since she already has a bond. Ialai Sadeas maybe, but unlikely. 

11 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

I don't think it can be a singer. 

What makes you think this? He needs a gemheart (or a swallowed gemstone) to bond and singers come ready-made for it. Honestly, my main money is on Turash.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I have suspected Nale for a while, and then Szeth will destroy him with Nightblood.

I doubt it will be Moash though.

[Pathfinder]

12 minutes ago, Invocation said:

It would have to be someone under Odium's direct supervision, since Yelig-Nar would otherwise just eat their soul like he did to Aesudan. Whoever becomes his official champion will, I believe, though it won't be Malata, probably, since she already has a bond. Ialai Sadeas maybe, but unlikely. 

What makes you think this? He needs a gemheart (or a swallowed gemstone) to bond and singers come ready-made for it. Honestly, my main money is on Turash.

My one disagreement with Turash, is he is a fused which means he is already "inhabiting" the body after kicking someone else out. I feel like if he bonded with Yelig-nar, he would have to then get kicked out since his hold on his current body would be relatively tenuous (by not being the original owner). But that is all just me theorizing. Got nothing definitive to say "it won't work because of X"

[Ciridae]

16 minutes ago, Invocation said:

What makes you think this? He needs a gemheart (or a swallowed gemstone) to bond and singers come ready-made for it. Honestly, my main money is on Turash.

I don't know if a singer gemheart could hold an Unmade. They can't even hold a Fused and leave a singer alive at the same time. Seems like YN needs a live host. 

But I guess the singer could swallow the gemstone like a human would. I don't know, I just don't feel like it would be a singer, just how I don't think Odiums champion will end up being a singer. It's just a gut feeling, a singer probably could bond YN technically. 

[CrazyRioter she/her]

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

My one disagreement with Turash, is he is a fused which means he is already "inhabiting" the body after kicking someone else out. I feel like if he bonded with Yelig-nar, he would have to then get kicked out since his hold on his current body would be relatively tenuous (by not being the original owner). But that is all just me theorizing. Got nothing definitive to say "it won't work because of X"

Yeah I think a Fused wouldn't work. I see no reason why a regular singer wouldn't though.

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, CrazyRioter said:

Yeah I think a Fused wouldn't work. I see no reason why a regular singer wouldn't though.

You get no disagreement from me. Was only commenting on Turash the fused. 

[Ciridae]

Do we think it's possible it'll be a character that hasn't been named? I mean the gemstone can change hands all the time, between new singers or humans we haven't heard of yet, but I think that would be a lot less interesting. Do any named singers come to mind? I dont think Thude or Rlain work. Maybe Khen or another singer from Moash's group could bond with him. 

[+Invocation]

11 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

I don't know if a singer gemheart could hold an Unmade. They can't even hold a Fused and leave a singer alive at the same time. Seems like YN needs a live host. 

 

Maybe the point is to experiment with giving Yelig-Nar his own body, shoving the singer out. I don't think they would have tried that during the last Desolations and we know they think nothing of sacrificing singer lives.

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, Invocation said:

Maybe the point is to experiment with giving Yelig-Nar his own body, shoving the singer out. I don't think they would have tried that during the last Desolations and we know they think nothing of sacrificing singer lives.

What would be different about past desolations that they would not have tried it already? Fused were already a thing back then. I wouldn't imagine they would have any problem sacrificing singer lives before vs now. 

[+Invocation]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

What would be different about past desolations that they would not have tried it already? Fused were already a thing back then. I wouldn't imagine they would have any problem sacrificing singer lives before vs now. 

Probably more that they didn't need it as much. Now that Dalinar has freaked out Odium a little and refused his championship, Odium probably is trying new things, plus he had 4,000 years to come up with new things to do other than just breaking the Heralds.

[Dalakaar he/him]

16 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Probably more that they didn't need it as much. Now that Dalinar has freaked out Odium a little and refused his championship, Odium probably is trying new things, plus he had 4,000 years to come up with new things to do other than just breaking the Heralds.

He is verifiably trying new strategies this time around. Specifically the Everstorm is stated to be something new. I don’t have the verbatim quote easy to find on my phone though.

That being said I don’t think that impacts the underlying question significantly. Just wanted to point out you’re right and Odium is capable of formulating and executing new strategy. 

[+Invocation]

Just now, Dalakaar said:

He is verifiably trying new strategies this time around. Specifically the Everstorm is stated to be something new. I don’t have the verbatim quote easy to find on my phone though.

That being said I don’t think that impacts the underlying question significantly. Just wanted to point out you’re right and Odium is capable of formulating and executing new strategy. 

The overall strategy is to free himself from the confines of Roshar, so bonding Yelig-Nar in new ways wouldn't really interfere with that.

But good point about the Everstorm being new, I'd forgotten about that.

[Pathfinder]

14 hours ago, Invocation said:

Probably more that they didn't need it as much. Now that Dalinar has freaked out Odium a little and refused his championship, Odium probably is trying new things, plus he had 4,000 years to come up with new things to do other than just breaking the Heralds.

I think since we do not have a verified metric on what makes a successful host for Yelig-nar, it is hard to judge what was done at all in the past vs now, so this is entirely my own opinion. Yes Odium is trying new things, but Yelig-nar is definitely an "old" thing. I do not see why Odium would not have already used Yelig-nar to try to bond his existing troops (singers and fused) in the ages past. They are the most readily available. If anything I think offering him up to humans is the new experimentation. 

 

[+Invocation]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

I think since we do not have a verified metric on what makes a successful host for Yelig-nar, it is hard to judge what was done at all in the past vs now, so this is entirely my own opinion. Yes Odium is trying new things, but Yelig-nar is definitely an "old" thing. I do not see why Odium would not have already used Yelig-nar to try to bond his existing troops (singers and fused) in the ages past. They are the most readily available. If anything I think offering him up to humans is the new experimentation. 

 

I can see where you're coming from, but I think Yelig-nar bonded to humans in the old days as well, given that in Hessi's Mythica, there was a segment about Yelig-nar and bonding him, with something along the lines of "Curiously, some sources mention swallowing a gemstone to engage in this process," so I believe that combining that with the information that humans would fight on the side of Odium's forces in multiple Desolations, per the Stormfather and the visions Dalinar has.

[Pathfinder]

47 minutes ago, Invocation said:

I can see where you're coming from, but I think Yelig-nar bonded to humans in the old days as well, given that in Hessi's Mythica, there was a segment about Yelig-nar and bonding him, with something along the lines of "Curiously, some sources mention swallowing a gemstone to engage in this process," so I believe that combining that with the information that humans would fight on the side of Odium's forces in multiple Desolations, per the Stormfather and the visions Dalinar has.

Like I said, comes down to personal preference. That information still does not preclude Odium from giving his own troops a try. It does not preclude him from taking chickens and seeing if they would hold Yelig-nar. We have not seen anyone successfully house him, nor truly know what it means to successfully house him. The Mythica could mention that only because those sources were concerned with the human portion. As far as we know humans always fail, but the dawnsingers always succeed. So long story short, I feel we got nothing lol. 

[+Invocation]

22 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Like I said, comes down to personal preference. That information still does not preclude Odium from giving his own troops a try. It does not preclude him from taking chickens and seeing if they would hold Yelig-nar. We have not seen anyone successfully house him, nor truly know what it means to successfully house him. The Mythica could mention that only because those sources were concerned with the human portion. As far as we know humans always fail, but the dawnsingers always succeed. So long story short, I feel we got nothing lol. 

Fair. We don't know enough to make a solid decision. Yet.

[Ripheus23]

Maybe Odium will feed the Yelig-nar crystal to a chasmfiend 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

46 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Like I said, comes down to personal preference. That information still does not preclude Odium from giving his own troops a try. It does not preclude him from taking chickens and seeing if they would hold Yelig-nar. We have not seen anyone successfully house him, nor truly know what it means to successfully house him. The Mythica could mention that only because those sources were concerned with the human portion. As far as we know humans always fail, but the dawnsingers always succeed. So long story short, I feel we got nothing lol.

Like @Toaster Retribution said with his suspicion that Nale might be the one to bond Yelig-nar, I think we have seen characters that have both decided to side with Odium and who won't be bothered overly much if their fusion with Yelig-nar temporarily destroys their physical vessel.

Nale is still taking his orders from Ishar and his decision to fight on the side of the Singers was made with Ishar's blessing. My hope is that Tezim, the God Priest of Tukar is going to be the vessel Odium chooses for Yelig-nar.

I think it would be awesome if Ishar, bonded with Yeligar, leads his Tukari troops and some of Odium's Singer and Fused forces in an assault on Urithiru. He has already threatened that he plans to take back the tower in his spanreed communique to Dalinar in OB, and being bonded to Yelig-nar would give him a tactical advantage I think, and being the Herald of the Bondsmith would give him the greatest possible ability to survive the bond (or at least maintain the bond for the greatest possible duration).

[+Invocation]

22 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Maybe Odium will feed the Yelig-nar crystal to a chasmfiend 

Oh that would be amazing and terrifying.

2 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I think it would be awesome if Ishar, bonded with Yeligar, leads his Tukari troops and some of Odium's Singer and Fused forces in an assault on Urithiru. He has already threatened that he plans to take back the tower in his spanreed communique to Dalinar in OB, and being bonded to Yelig-nar would give him a tactical advantage I think, and being the Herald of the Bondsmith would give him the greatest possible ability to survive the bond (or at least maintain the bond for the greatest possible duration).

That would be really cool.

[Pathfinder]

25 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Like @Toaster Retribution said with his suspicion that Nale might be the one to bond Yelig-nar, I think we have seen characters that have both decided to side with Odium and who won't be bothered overly much if their fusion with Yelig-nar temporarily destroys their physical vessel.

Nale is still taking his orders from Ishar and his decision to fight on the side of the Singers was made with Ishar's blessing. My hope is that Tezim, the God Priest of Tukar is going to be the vessel Odium chooses for Yelig-nar.

I think it would be awesome if Ishar, bonded with Yeligar, leads his Tukari troops and some of Odium's Singer and Fused forces in an assault on Urithiru. He has already threatened that he plans to take back the tower in his spanreed communique to Dalinar in OB, and being bonded to Yelig-nar would give him a tactical advantage I think, and being the Herald of the Bondsmith would give him the greatest possible ability to survive the bond (or at least maintain the bond for the greatest possible duration).

For all we know Yelig-nar would end up consuming the investiture keeping the herald in his created body, which would run into the potential same problem as using the fused. Though I say this not to say I am right you are wrong. This is completely conjecture on my own part. 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

For all we know Yelig-nar would end up consuming the investiture keeping the herald in his created body, which would run into the potential same problem as using the fused. Though I say this not to say I am right you are wrong. This is completely conjecture on my own part. 

Good point I agree in the main, but there are a couple of fundamental differences between the Fused and the Heralds. The Fused are cognitive shadows that use the gem hearts of singers as anchors to staple in their spirit webs to the physical body of the body snatched Singer. Heralds are not body snatchers, so the only alternative explanation (I think) is that their physical forms are created from investiture to house their cognitive shadows. The exact mechanic of this is unknown, but I think that they probably have advantages as hosts for Yelig-nar over the Fused. Namely that they don't have a competing anchor of fusion for their spirit webs. I am not up to date on the WoB's regarding the mechanics of the Fused, but how I've described it is how it seemed to me to be implied in the text of OB (and the one WoB that describes cognitive shadows being stapled into bodies). It could be that the Heralds, because they are also Cognitive shadows stapled into a body, would likewise be unsuitable hosts for Yelig-Nar, and it could easily be too that Yelig-nar as a parasitic entity destroys the spirit web that it is fusing to (it definitely seemed like Amaram's body was being consumed by yelignar, and maybe this extended to his spirit web as well, which if that is the case, poor Amaram).

So, if I was Odium, I would experiment with the Fused first and if there was no adverse effect to the Fused's spirit web after fusing with Yelig-Nar, I would have my new buddy Tezim swallow Yelig-Nar. Now that I think about it, because Yelig-nar is a splinter of his own power, Odium would probably know what would happen without having to experiment. And with his recent decision to "Vyre" Jezrien, he might not be unhappy with the outcome where Ishar's spirit web would be consumed by Yelig-Nar. The more I think about this, the more I see no reason that Odium would have for not letting Tezim swallow the Yelig-Nar pill. It's a win win, and Ishar as Tezim definitely is not lacking in self-confidence, so I don't see him hesitating to do it either.

[Pathfinder]

23 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Good point I agree in the main, but there are a couple of fundamental differences between the Fused and the Heralds. The Fused are cognitive shadows that use the gem hearts of singers as anchors to staple in their spirit webs to the physical body of the body snatched Singer. Heralds are not body snatchers, so the only alternative explanation (I think) is that their physical forms are created from investiture to house their cognitive shadows. The exact mechanic of this is unknown, but I think that they probably have advantages as hosts for Yelig-nar over the Fused. Namely that they don't have a competing anchor of fusion for their spirit webs. I am not up to date on the WoB's regarding the mechanics of the Fused, but how I've described it is how it seemed to me to be implied in the text of OB (and the one WoB that describes cognitive shadows being stapled into bodies). It could be that the Heralds, because they are also Cognitive shadows stapled into a body, would likewise be unsuitable hosts for Yelig-Nar, and it could easily be too that Yelig-nar as a parasitic entity destroys the spirit web that it is fusing to (it definitely seemed like Amaram's body was being consumed by yelignar, and maybe this extended to his spirit web as well, which if that is the case, poor Amaram).

So, if I was Odium, I would experiment with the Fused first and if there was no adverse effect to the Fused's spirit web after fusing with Yelig-Nar, I would have my new buddy Tezim swallow Yelig-Nar. Now that I think about it, because Yelig-nar is a splinter of his own power, Odium would probably know what would happen without having to experiment. And with his recent decision to "Vyre" Jezrien, he might not be unhappy with the outcome where Ishar's spirit web would be consumed by Yelig-Nar. The more I think about this, the more I see no reason that Odium would have for not letting Tezim swallow the Yelig-Nar pill. It's a win win, and Ishar as Tezim definitely is not lacking in self-confidence, so I don't see him hesitating to do it either.

I would need to pull up the WoBs associated with each but we do know for a fact that:

1. the heralds bodies are "grown"/created

2. their cognitive shadow is inhabiting the body, as Moash's dagger took it away to prevent it from being reborn

 

edit: found the WoB for the second one, but it is not exactly how I recall. please give me a few moments to dig further to be sure

edit 2: i slightly tweaked my response. relevant WoBs shown below

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Moash killed a god? One of the Heralds?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
He did. One of the Heralds. And trapped his soul so he couldn't be reborn.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
That's what it is. Trapped his soul, didn't actually kill him?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
It's killed him...It was like, extra killed. The Heralds are bound to a cycle of rebirth that happens...that they wanted to make sure didn't happen that time.

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
How do the Heralds come back? How do they a physical body?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
That system will be explained in the coming books, so that is a RAFO. I'm gonna dig into it pretty deeply. It's relevant for multiple reasons.

In the original version, Taln ended up in someone else, like they would get a body from someone else, which was part of fueling the "Is he crazy, is he not," because people were like, "I recognize this guy!" I don't use that system anymore.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
That's what I was wondering, because the Fused...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
They use something kind of more like the Fused in the original draft, it's not that process anymore.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Is that gonna give us lead-ins to how it worked with Kelsier?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Maybe. Maybe. You shall see.

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Can a Returned be made from Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
How would you count the Heralds?

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
I haven't read much, so I don't really know what you're talking about.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
In the Stormlight books, there is a set of people who are constantly reborn, into full sized grown bodies that are being created for them. Would you count that as being Returned?

Or do you count Returned...What's your definition, right? You can create something that is Returned-like. But your definition of what is Returned and what is not, is going to be involved in that.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Pathfinder

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

1. the heralds bodies are "grown"/created

So found these WoBs (spoilered below) are there others?
 

Spoiler

Legion Release party (9-19-18)

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Can a Returned be made from Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

How would you count the Heralds?

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I haven't read much, so I don't really know what you're talking about.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

In the Stormlight books, there is a set of people who are constantly reborn, into full sized grown bodies that are being created for them. Would you count that as being Returned?

Or do you count Returned...What's your definition, right? You can create something that is Returned-like. But your definition of what is Returned and what is not, is going to be involved in that.

source

Read for Pixels AMA (9-1-18)

Quote

Oversleep (as Droga Królów)

Do the Heralds need to consume Investiture in order to stay in their body?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Good question. Excellent question. They're asking if they're like Returned and they need to consume a breath each week.

source

Skyward Chicago (11-16-18)

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

How do the Heralds come back? How do they a physical body?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That system will be explained in the coming books, so that is a RAFO. I'm gonna dig into it pretty deeply. It's relevant for multiple reasons.

In the original version, Taln ended up in someone else, like they would get a body from someone else, which was part of fueling the "Is he crazy, is he not," because people were like, "I recognize this guy!" I don't use that system anymore.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

That's what I was wondering, because the Fused...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

They use something kind of more like the Fused in the original draft, it's not that process anymore.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Is that gonna give us lead-ins to how it worked with Kelsier?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Maybe. Maybe. You shall see.

source

Then there's this one, from BookCon 2018 (6-1-18) that maybe shows the mechanic for how the Heralds became cognitive shadows, namely through exposure to extreme levels of power (so their cognitive essence was preserved like the petrified wood example):

Quote

WindRunner88 [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

So far during The Stormlight Archive we've seen that the spren bond appears to have some distinct advantages (i.e. armor, more efficient Stormlight consumption, access to a variety of weapons) over what Tanavast via the Oathpact provided the Heralds. With the exception of Nale, and the fact that the Heralds had no need for Stormlight, can you please tell me one way in which a Herald had a distinct advantage over a level 5 Radiant of their corresponding  order?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

Rebirth. *pause* The Heralds had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain.

source

Here's the Petrified wood WoB from the Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (12-6-16):

Quote

Questioner

Have we seen cameos of Heralds on other Shardworlds?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave.

Questioner

I thought I saw someone but I guess not.

Brandon Sanderson

It’s part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not. "Cognitive Shadow" is a very ambiguous term in the cosmere. It means, basically your soul-- It's the same thing with petrification, right? Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but... you are usually Invested with something, that's tied, and you're basically like pure Investiture then. You're tied to the thing you're Connected to. Most of the things that you're gonna see with that, travelling is going to be very difficult, unless you know how to do it. You have seen people do it.

Questioner

Who?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher... You have seen people do it. But anyone who's got-- yeah.

source

 

The fact that the Herald's don't need to consume investiture to maintain their form would imply to me at least that their bodies are more durable than the Returned's or that the mechanic for anchoring their cognitive shadow into their bodies is at least more efficient or more permanent than for the Returned.

 

17 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

. their cognitive shadow is "investiture" inhabiting the body, as Moash's dagger took away the investiture holding to the body

I think this just means that their cognitive shadow is a separable and discrete component of the composite entity that is the herald. I.e. that in place of a soul (that a normal human would have) the Herald's have a cognitive shadow (that is made of fossilized Investiture). I really don't think we have enough information about how Yelig-nar works to do more than make reasoned conjectures about how this all works, but I don't think that should stop us from speculating. That's the fun part, I think.

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

So found these WoBs (spoilered below) are there others?
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Legion Release party (9-19-18)

Read for Pixels AMA (9-1-18)

Skyward Chicago (11-16-18)

Then there's this one, from BookCon 2018 (6-1-18) that maybe shows the mechanic for how the Heralds became cognitive shadows, namely through exposure to extreme levels of power (so their cognitive essence was preserved like the petrified wood example):

Here's the Petrified wood WoB from the Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (12-6-16):

 

The fact that the Herald's don't need to consume investiture to maintain their form would imply to me at least that their bodies are more durable than the Returned's or that the mechanic for anchoring their cognitive shadow into their bodies is at least more efficient or more permanent than for the Returned.

 

I think this just means that their cognitive shadow is a separable and discrete component of the composite entity that is the herald. I.e. that in place of a soul (that a normal human would have) the Herald's have a cognitive shadow (that is made of fossilized Investiture). I really don't think we have enough information about how Yelig-nar works to do more than make reasoned conjectures about how this all works, but I don't think that should stop us from speculating. That's the fun part, I think.

Lol, refresh the page, I kinda beat you to it. Cognitive Shadows are investiture. Moash's dagger trapped the cognitive shadow, and the body was then dead. I speculate that Yelig-nar would consume the investiture that is the cognitive shadow of the herald or the fused, and thereby not be a perfect host. Speculate away. I just speculate differently.