Is Scadrian metal required for hemalurgy?

[Zallek Windblade he/him]

There are a lot of Cosmere implications with hemalurgy but I am curious if, since metal is a manifestation of investiture on scadrial, would Rosharan metal work on Roshar?

Would Scadrian metal work anywhere else? Or does each planet have it’s own form of hemalurgic materials?

[Yezrien]

Hemalurgy is a cosmere-wide phenomenon. Scadrians discovered it first because of Lord Ruler, but it works the same everywhere. (It is NOT location-dependent, like AonDor.) Godmetals will all have different effects, but Rosharan iron should work the same as Scadrian iron.

Hemalurgy works because of Ruin's investiture, which (according to recent WoBs) is everywhere. All metal in the cosmere probably contains a little bit of Ruin.

[The Sovereign]

Bleeder's spike was made of "Trellium" [for lack of another term]. We can make an educated guess that Trell is Autonomy (or a less educated, but still somewhat reasonable guess that Trell is Odium). And that metal was used one Scadrial. This would indicate the metals origin isn't necessarily relevant. I believe there was a WOB that said a spike made of a gem was plausible although I can't find it. Also Vyre's dagger is Hemalurgy after a fasion. Here are a few relevent WOBs:

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

In the past, you have said... that we've seen a metal that is from a Shard that we know, on Scadrial. You said Wax has seen the influence of a Shard other than Preservation, Ruin, or Harmony, and that the spike that Bleeder was using was a metal from a Shard we know. It seems like there's another Shard influencing Scadrial. Is Trell an extension of that?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

And is that Odium?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That's a RAFO.

source

 

 

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Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

The knife used by Moash is "something similar to hemalurgy."

I7Ax [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

Is it a Dawnshard?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

Good question but no.

source

 

 

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Moogle

Why can non-Scadrians use Hemalurgy? Don't they need Ruin's sDNA, like Allomancers need Preservation?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy is built to be able to be used by anyone. It's about taking and breaking. Ruin doesn't care who does such things

source

 

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by The Sovereign

[+Invocation]

Scadrian Allomancers can use metals from other worlds, provided the percentages are correct, so Hemalurgy needing only Scadrian metals would be wonky, plus The Sovereign's WOBs.

[goody153]

2 hours ago, Zallek Windblade said:

There are a lot of Cosmere implications with hemalurgy but I am curious if, since metal is a manifestation of investiture on scadrial, would Rosharan metal work on Roshar?

Would Scadrian metal work anywhere else? Or does each planet have it’s own form of hemalurgic materials?

Hemalurgy is the magic that can literally work anywhere so long as you provided Ruin's intent and you have the right metal with the right hitting point and the right attribute.

Hemalurgy is crucial in future cosmere 

2 hours ago, The Sovereign said:

Bleeder's spike was made of "Trellium" [for lack of another term]. We can make an educated guess that Trell is Autonomy (or a less educated, but still somewhat reasonable guess that Trell is Odium). And that metal was used one Scadrial. This would indicate the metals origin isn't necessarily relevant. I believe there was a WOB that said a spike made of a gem was plausible although I can't find it. Also Vyre's dagger is Hemalurgy after a fasion. Here are a few relevent WOBs:

First of all i agree that any metal anywhere can be used for hemalurgy (with the right timing and the right attribute to steal ofc )

@first bolded part : You might find yourself in the minority. Trell is not Odium. Trell is Autonomy(i also started on the Trell is Odium camp). Most here believe that Trell is not Odium but autonomy.  I actually had the same deduction initially as well but Autonomy makes a better case for Trell (narrative-wise and connection-wise)

Here are one of the many Trell is Autonomy discussion on this forum. Here's another

@second bolded part: That was not Hemalurgy. It just works in a similar fashion

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kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW]

Have we seen any evidence of Hemalurgy on Roshar? And, as sort of an addendum, given the end of Oathbringer, was what happened to Jezrien Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There are certain cosmere philosophers that would count it. I would divide it as two separate things that are using similar fundamentals... I wouldn't call it myself, but there are people who would disagree with me in-world. Have we seen evidence? I would say no evidence that is easily-- easy to pick out.

kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW]

But it's there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, there are people with Hemalurgy who have been to Roshar. I'm pretty sure they've been on-screen.

source

There's your WoB. 

Edited December 28, 2018 by goody153

[The Sovereign]

12 hours ago, goody153 said:

@first bolded part : You might find yourself in the minority. Trell is not Odium. Trell is Autonomy(i also started on the Trell is Odium camp). Most here believe that Trell is not Odium but autonomy.  I actually had the same deduction initially as well but Autonomy makes a better case for Trell (narrative-wise and connection-wise)

Here are one of the many Trell is Autonomy discussion on this forum. Here's another

I believe you are mis-reading my post; I am saying that I believe Trell is Autonomy. Either way, your point is valid. My point was regardless if you think that Trell is Autonomy or Odium, you are seeing a case with Bleeder where a metal of non-Scadrian origin is being used for Hemalurgy on Scadrial.

Edited December 28, 2018 by The Sovereign
Formatting.

[goody153]

1 hour ago, The Sovereign said:

I believe you are mis-reading my post; I am saying that I believe Trell is Autonomy. Either way, your point is valid. My point was regardless if you think that Trell is Autonomy or Odium, you are seeing a case with Bleeder where a metal of non-Scadrian origin is being used for Hemalurgy on Scadrial.

Think i definitely misread it. Oops but eitherways i like sharing about trell is autonomy xD

[Wandering Investor]

Hemallurgy will work anywhere, and the origin of the metal does not matter as long as it has the right percentages. But to get hemallurgy to work requires both very specific knowledge, and the intent to use hemallurgy. That's why you don't see it being used all over the place, people don't know about it and/or how to use it.

[Scion of the Mists]

Metal is not a "manifestation of Investiture" on Scadrial.  It's just metal - exactly the same as metal on any other planet.  

I don't think anybody's asked Brandon specifically about non-Scadrian metal and Hemalurgy, but he's answered a number of times that non-Scadrian metal would work just as well for Allomancy, and I see no reason why Hemalurgy would be any different.  

[NysemePtem he/him]

 

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kalamitous_emoashions

Have we seen any evidence of Hemalurgy on Roshar? And, as sort of an addendum, given the end of Oathbringer, was what happened to Jezrien Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

There are certain cosmere philosophers that would count it. I would divide it as two separate things that are using similar fundamentals... I wouldn't call it myself, but there are people who would disagree with me in-world. Have we seen evidence? I would say no evidence that is easily-- easy to pick out.

kalamitous_emoashions

But it's there?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there are people with Hemalurgy who have been to Roshar. I'm pretty sure they've been on-screen.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Oathbringer says that after Moash killed Jezrien, the sapphire in the pommel takes on a "subdued glow". It's implied or said that Jezrien's soul is somehow trapped and prevented from returning to Braize - stolen by the dagger, hence the Hemalurgic aspect. But it seems like in this case, rather than the spike storing the stolen attribute, it transferred the attribute to the gemstone. 

I also am not sure if it is Jezrien's entire soul that was stolen, or just part of his spiritweb - maybe his Connection to Honor, created by the Oathpact? It's also interesting that the dagger leaves Nightblood-esque wounds. 

EDIT: another difference between the dagger and Hemalurgy is Intent - we know that proper Hemalurgy requires the Intent to create a spike, otherwise we'd probably have people randomly losing attributes any time they're stabbed or pierced with Hemalurgically viable metal. 

So, while the fundamental principle is the same: stealing parts of a spiritweb, this Odium-lurgy(terrible name, I know...) doesn't seem to require Intent, and may store stolen spiritweb fragments in gemstones rather than metal. 

ALTHOUGH it is also possible that Odium was guiding Moash , and maybe that gave him enough Intent for the spike to take? Ruin did this to an Urteau soldier, guiding his sword to stab through a Pewterarm and spike Spook. But while Moash is obviously under Odium's influence, he doesn't hear his voice, it seems more like he's being manipulated than controlled. 

Or maybe something else is at play, involving some kind of Intent-storing Fabrial?

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by NysemePtem

[Weltall]

@NysemePtem First off, please use quotes so it's easy to tell where the WoB ends and your own ideas begin.

Second: