The Heralds’ Origin

[StrikerEZ he/him]

So, I was listening to the source audio for the Denver signing and I found a really interesting WoB. It hasn’t been transcribed yet, so this isn’t the most accurate retelling of this WoB, but it gets the point across.

Quote

Questioner:

Do the Heralds predate the Ashyn exodus?

Brandon Sanderson:

Yes.

(Again, very very very paraphrased)

In addition, Brandon also mentioned that he’d have to check his notes to make sure, but he’s pretty sure that Shalash was either born before the exodus, but it could’ve been after.

So, I don’t really know what to think of this yet. This completely messes with how I thought the timeline was working. If the Heralds existed on Ashyn (Brandon said they weren’t Heralds yet at that point), how old are they? Did they live longer than normal humans? Or was the transition from exodus to first desolation a lot quicker than we had previously assumed?

Edited November 18, 2018 by StrikerEZ

[Gavtyven he/him]

10 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

In addition, Brandon also mentioned that he’d have to check his notes to make sure, but he’s pretty sure that Shalash was either born before the exodus, but it could’ve been after.

Then it's fair to say that at least Jezrien, her father, was born pre-exodus. That's interesting, because I too assumed there was at least a bit of time between the exodus and the first desolation, as the humans needed time to grow discontent with Shinovar, before they decided to invade the rest of the continent. If there was, then what does that imply for the Heralds? Maybe they're kind of like the Returned from Nalthis, only granted their life by either Odium or Honor (most likely Odium, as he was the god of the humans before Honor was), but then why would they oppose him that much? 

It's all a bit weird

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

The Heralds being from Ashyn makes sense. I even have a theory that Ishar is responsible for imprisoning Odium, so they have to be old for that to work. 

[Gavtyven he/him]

11 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I even have a theory that Ishar is responsible for imprisoning Odium, so they have to be old for that to work. 

Yeah, but Odium was imprisoned when the humans took Honor as their god, replacing Odium. That happened after the exodus, and during or after the first desolation, probably. So that doesn't exactly clear up a lot, timeline wise. Maybe someone asked a follow up question to it? I'd hope so at least.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

6 hours ago, Gavtyven said:

Yeah, but Odium was imprisoned when the humans took Honor as their god, replacing Odium. That happened after the exodus, and during or after the first desolation, probably. So that doesn't exactly clear up a lot, timeline wise. Maybe someone asked a follow up question to it? I'd hope so at least.

Nope, no one asked a follow up question, at least not at that signing.

[+Extesian he/him]

This was my head canon, that the Heralds were great leaders on Ashyn and magic users, and they were immortal from that magic (any magic powerful enough to break a planet could have immortality options). They then broke Ashyn, evacuated their people and set up in Shinovar. Kept leading their people against disgruntled Singers until Odium made them Fused. Then they went to Honor asking for the Herald gig.

Fitted to me because of the references to Jes being a great king iirc and with the Heralds having powers not just from the Honorblades eg Taln's speed.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Extesian

[Argent he/him]

8 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

The Heralds being from Ashyn makes sense. I even have a theory that Ishar is responsible for imprisoning Odium, so they have to be old for that to work. 

I came up with a similar idea during the Heralds Shardcast episode. I don't remember exactly what I said but I think it was Ishar's title as the "Binder of Gods" that led me to believe that his role in the founding of the Oathpact and whatever event made him the Binder of Gods were different events. So when somebody from the Cosmere Chat Discord server asked me for questions, I offered the Heralds on Ashyn question - it felt like it didn't need much background, and it was interesting enough. 

It does make the timeline interesting though. If the Heralds had a normal human lifespan pre-Oathpact, then the time between the exodus and the first Desolation couldn't have been more than a few decades at most. If they could live for a long time anyway, then we get into more reasonable timeframes, I think. It's exciting news either way.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Here’s the WoB, since it’s now been transcribed.

Quote

DiscordBondsmith[PENDING REVIEW]

Were the Heralds alive for the human exodus from Ashyn?

Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. They were not Heralds then, but they all made that trip. I believe. You can't nail me down on that one, because it's possible that Ash was born after, but I don't think so.

source

 

[+Child of Hodor]

On 11/18/2018 at 8:02 PM, Argent said:

I came up with a similar idea during the Heralds Shardcast episode. I don't remember exactly what I said but I think it was Ishar's title as the "Binder of Gods" that led me to believe that his role in the founding of the Oathpact and whatever event made him the Binder of Gods were different events. So when somebody from the Cosmere Chat Discord server asked me for questions, I offered the Heralds on Ashyn question - it felt like it didn't need much background, and it was interesting enough. 

It does make the timeline interesting though. If the Heralds had a normal human lifespan pre-Oathpact, then the time between the exodus and the first Desolation couldn't have been more than a few decades at most. If they could live for a long time anyway, then we get into more reasonable timeframes, I think. It's exciting news either way.

Depends what whoever came up with the title "Binder of Gods" meant by Gods. Ishar definitely founded the Oathpact which bound the Fused who were referred to as gods.

I feel like the Stormfather directly contradicts the idea that any of the Heralds bound Odium. 

Quote

THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION. -  OB Ch. 38 

It is clear that Odium thinks the power of Honor itself is binding him because he thinks Dalinar, as the holder of the largest remnant of Honor, has the ability to release him. 

Quote

"Is that," Odium said quietly, "an offer to release me from my bonds, coming from the man holding the remnants of Honor's name and power?" - OB Ch. 57

There is the idea that a Dawnshard can bind any creature. Someone climbed Urithiru and used it for something according to this poem, but Urithiru was built long after the Heralds and the Oathpact. 

Quote

 

Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.”

—From the Poem of Ista. I have found no modern explanation of what these "Dawnshards" are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies^[1]

 

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Argent he/him]

I was suggesting that Ishar may have been a facilitator of the binding of Odium - Honor's power would've still been the thing that keeps him chained. I imagine a contest of champions could work similarly. 

[+Child of Hodor]

22 minutes ago, Argent said:

I was suggesting that Ishar may have been a facilitator of the binding of Odium - Honor's power would've still been the thing that keeps him chained. I imagine a contest of champions could work similarly. 

Gotcha. I agree there is nothing that shoots down your theory. 

It just seems like Honor and Cultivation did the binding, I don't know why they would need Ishar, a mere human at that point, to help.  I think he's the binder because he came up with the Oathpact and enforced it through his oaths and actions. He also forced the Knights Radiant structure upon the nahel-bonding spren and some cultures view those spren as gods. That's enough god-binding that Ishar definitely did to earn the title of god-binder.  

Cognitive Shadows are imprisoning Cognitive Shadows with the Oathpact. Shards imprisoning Shards makes sense to me. 

I guess he could have negotiated with Odium and got him to agree to something like Taravangian did, but I don't know why Odium would barter with a human when two Shards were alive on the planet. Odium would have been afraid of a 2 on 1 fight after Ambition fought back and would want an agreement directly with H&C to avoid that. 

Quote

To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal. OB Ch. 16

I am contractually obligated to mention Dawnshards in every post . Ishar could have used the binding Dawnshard to bind Odium I guess, why Ishar would be the one and how Dawnshards even work or what exactly they are (object, spren, misc.) is unknown. 

If Ishar bound Odium through some action then he should be able to release Odium. If Ishar abandoned the Oathpact and as the Stormfather says seeks death, I would think he would release Odium. Maybe he did it with a Dawnshard and needs a Dawnshard to undo it and Tanavast heavily implies the Dawnshards are not available anymore.

I also don't like the idea of Honor and Cultivation sitting there "duh, what do we do?" and Ishar coming up with the plan AND the Oathpact AND founded the Knights Radiant.   

I think Honor and Cultivation put their heads together and figured out a way to trap Odium and Ishar was inspired by that and came up with the Oathpact to trap the Fused.  It would be a nice parallel to he Heralds and the Radiants where Honor made the Honorblades which gave the Heralds Surges and the spren were inspired by something Honor did and emulated it. 

[stonedshaman]

Unrelated but @Argent I now hear your sultry voice everytime I read one of your posts