Toaster Retribution he/him Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 Just outlaw the Skybreakers. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Child of Hodor Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 Too late, it will only work if the Singers do it now. He recognizes the Singers as the true legal authority of Roshar and so do the Skybreakers that went over with him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripheus23 Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said: Just outlaw the Skybreakers. He would probably think that that would be like outlawing the police, a self-defeating idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yezrien Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 Or just use a hammer. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripheus23 Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 4 minutes ago, Belzedar said: hammer. Under the circumstances, Hammir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+robardin he/him Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 20 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said: Too late, it will only work if the Singers do it now. He recognizes the Singers as the true legal authority of Roshar and so do the Skybreakers that went over with him. True, but... What or who defines the "codex of law" for the singers? They have an oral, song-based tradition. Most of the "awakened" parshmen are going along with what the Fused tell them to do because it's the only option they can see, as they refuse to be "parshmen" slaves to humans any more, and you know, are kind of upset about that whole "stole their minds and treated them as chattel for many, many generations" thing, too. Yet even they are subject to brutal treatment to keep them in line at the hands of the Fused, as Moash saw happened to Sah and their group. In turn, the Fused are doing what Odium tells them to do, out of fear of him revoking "that which grants you persistent life". Those that aren't insane. So really, the Skybreakers have signed up not for following "the laws of the original masters of Roshar", but for a rule by whim and fear from a group of partly insane Fused singers, driven by the passion and hatred of Odium, the original enemy of the Oathpact. Whatever the Great Secret is (that Hoid/Wit knows, and told to Jasnah) that caused the Recreance did not do the same for the Skybreakers, though, allows for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 36 minutes ago, robardin said: True, but... What or who defines the "codex of law" for the singers? They have an oral, song-based tradition. Most of the "awakened" parshmen are going along with what the Fused tell them to do because it's the only option they can see, as they refuse to be "parshmen" slaves to humans any more, and you know, are kind of upset about that whole "stole their minds and treated them as chattel for many, many generations" thing, too. Yet even they are subject to brutal treatment to keep them in line at the hands of the Fused, as Moash saw happened to Sah and their group. In turn, the Fused are doing what Odium tells them to do, out of fear of him revoking "that which grants you persistent life". Those that aren't insane. So really, the Skybreakers have signed up not for following "the laws of the original masters of Roshar", but for a rule by whim and fear from a group of partly insane Fused singers, driven by the passion and hatred of Odium, the original enemy of the Oathpact. Whatever the Great Secret is (that Hoid/Wit knows, and told to Jasnah) that caused the Recreance did not do the same for the Skybreakers, though, allows for it. Which is one of the reasons Nale's current logic is entirely flawed and bound to change eventually. But to answer the initial question, still believe you could use his own description of how Authority works to convince him that the "proper" authority has nothing to do with the race of the serf cannon fodder in this war: by his own logic rises through secular rank and then jumps to divine authority above that. So by his own logic Odium should still be the Murderous Invader of the scenario, and the actual Authority on Roshar should go to either Cultivation as the surviving "original" Shard-God of Roshar, or else the Stormfather as Honor/Tanavast's Invested (in several senses of word) Heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted November 7, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 41 minutes ago, Quantus said: Which is one of the reasons Nale's current logic is entirely flawed and bound to change eventually. I doubt it. I think Brandon wants Nale as an antagonist. From a story perspective, making him join Odium just to sideswitch back because of bad logic wouldn’t accomplish anything. Also, Nale sticks to his decisions. Look at how he kept on killing Radiants up until he had the Everstorm on his doorstep. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said: I doubt it. I think Brandon wants Nale as an antagonist. From a story perspective, making him join Odium just to sideswitch back because of bad logic wouldn’t accomplish anything. I disagree, personally, but then I think he's a red herring baddy and is being actively manipulated by Ishar, who makes a better Vader-figure for me than Nale alone. Honestly I like Nale, his self-doubt makes him oddly sympathetic. Quote Also, Nale sticks to his decisions. Look at how he kept on killing Radiants up until he had the Everstorm on his doorstep. Nah, he sticks to the Law, and interprets that as best he can, but he's perfectly willing to drop and abandon a path if the Law comes to contradict it like when Lift was pardoned. And while I think it will be extremely difficult to convince him (or any 5th Ideal Skybreaker) with a simple dissenting Legal Brief, I do think he's open/vulnerable to it. A big part of why I think that is because he is clearly starting to Doubt his own judgement and/or interpretation, given how he counseled Szeth to NOT swear a Dedication Ideal to follow Nale personally. Edited November 8, 2018 by Quantus grammar... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted November 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2018 13 hours ago, Quantus said: I disagree, personally, but then I think he's a red herring baddy and is being actively manipulated by Ishar, who makes a better Vader-figure for me than Nale alone. Honestly I like Nale, his self-doubt makes him oddly sympathetic. Quote I am a big fan of Nale as well, but I think he is doomed to be a villain. Brandon made him sideswitch in, what I think, a somewhat contrieved way. Nale is mad, so I buy it, but it does feel a bit like Brandon meddling in the story to me. And that also makes it very clear that Brandon wants him on Team Odium. I also think that his eventual death by Szeth has been foreshadowed pretty well. Nale says that they might face eachother on a battlefield, and we know that we will see Nightblood clash with a shardblade. But I might be wrong. Nale might team up with Venli or something, who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted November 8, 2018 Report Share Posted November 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said: I am a big fan of Nale as well, but I think he is doomed to be a villain. Brandon made him sideswitch in, what I think, a somewhat contrieved way. Nale is mad, so I buy it, but it does feel a bit like Brandon meddling in the story to me. And that also makes it very clear that Brandon wants him on Team Odium. I also think that his eventual death by Szeth has been foreshadowed pretty well. Nale says that they might face eachother on a battlefield, and we know that we will see Nightblood clash with a shardblade. But I might be wrong. Nale might team up with Venli or something, who knows? Only time will tell, I suppose. As a general statement I see a very strong pattern of subverted expectations with a lot of characters, especially "villains" in basically every cosmere work, and Nale already seems to be falling into that category having been introduced as the murderous Radiant-hunter in Edgedancer. On the Watsonian side, since Odium has directly expressed to Dalinar that he intends and requires that all the Heralds die, that give Team Unity a very specific reason to keep Nale alive, regardless of Nales choices. Heraldic status or not, he's no harder to hold prisoner than any other Radiant (millennia of experience aside). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted November 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Quantus said: Only time will tell, I suppose. As a general statement I see a very strong pattern of subverted expectations with a lot of characters, especially "villains" in basically every cosmere work, and Nale already seems to be falling into that category having been introduced as the murderous Radiant-hunter in Edgedancer. On the Watsonian side, since Odium has directly expressed to Dalinar that he intends and requires that all the Heralds die, that give Team Unity a very specific reason to keep Nale alive, regardless of Nales choices. Heraldic status or not, he's no harder to hold prisoner than any other Radiant (millennia of experience aside). You do make a couple good points. I’ll agree that time will tell. I seem to recall a WoB that stated we would see a lot more of Nale as well, so who knows. Also, in spirit of the thread, I think Nale would be very confused if he was locked up. You don’t imprison the law. Edit: Ah, here it is! Quote chasmfriend's child Why would anyone give Szeth Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson Hahaha, hehehe. Isaac Stewart He had to so we could make this shirt. Brandon Sanderson You will learn a lot more about Nale in future books. He's not all there. So you're asking the right question. Edited November 8, 2018 by Toaster Retribution Added an interesting WoB about Nale, Herald of Justice and t-shirts 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted November 8, 2018 Report Share Posted November 8, 2018 14 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said: You do make a couple good points. I’ll agree that time will tell. I seem to recall a WoB that stated we would see a lot more of Nale as well, so who knows. Also, in spirit of the thread, I think Nale would be very confused if he was locked up. You don’t imprison the law. Edit: Ah, here it is! Oh dear lord, I never considered the existential crisis that would cause for him. To say nothing of what his Spren would think; I wonder if that would be the sort of thing that might violate one of his sworn Ideals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvisual Haze Posted November 8, 2018 Report Share Posted November 8, 2018 Riddle Contest? Or perhaps a dance-off? Fiddling competition? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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