Godmetal Melting Points (and other phase-change questions)

[Quantus he/him]

I stumbled across this WOB that mentioned how Harmonium does not have the normal melting point of an Alkali metal (which normally melt relatively low and are mostly liquid at ambient room temps). 

That got me thinking about Investiture and how those might deal with phase changes.  Investiture manifests in various unique ways when it's solidified into physical form.  We know that it has to be possible to melt godmetals because it is possible to make alloys of at least two of them.  In any other situation that would be the end of it, but now we are talking about something that only acts like metal because it is solid, it's part of the definition.  Investiture as a liquid or as a gas works in wildly different ways.  But if you melt or boil one do you get another?  Does boiling godmetal make Mist/Stormlight/etc gaseous Investiture?  If you froze the waters from a shard-pool would it take on metallic traits?  Can either of those things be done with normal thermal energy or is there some other secret method needed to actually melt and smith a Godmetal?  For example, does the phase change of melting a godmetal require more dramatic Realmic process, like maybe using a perpendicularity to provide a "pressure" equivalent, rather than temperature-based phase changes the way astronomic pressures can crush hydrogen into a metallic form?

 

It's a side of Realmic Mechanics that Id never considered so it's a rabbit-hole Ive never really chased.  Thoughts?

   

Edited November 8, 2018 by Quantus
grammar...

[The Silverlight Scholar]

I think this is a really cool idea. Another thing to mention is that Zane gave Vin a hunk of lead covered in a thin layer of Atium, so we know that somebody was able to work a god metal with just the tools and knowledge available during TFE.

[Dunkum he/him]

9 minutes ago, The Silverlight Scholar said:

I think this is a really cool idea. Another thing to mention is that Zane gave Vin a hunk of lead covered in a thin layer of Atium, so we know that somebody was able to work a god metal with just the tools and knowledge available during TFE.

heck, we see Malatium during TFE so we know they were able to make an alloy of it at that time.

I'm no metalurgist, but I assume most alloys are made by melting the different metals and mixing them together then letting them reharden (freeze seems like the wrong word for molten to solid metal conversion for some reason).  this would suggest that molten atium behaves the way a normal metal would, rather than reverting to something like a mini-shardpool.  though I suppose it may be possible to create an alloy using chemical reactions or something that avoids the melting process.  though that gtes into other questions on the chemical properties of godmetals and how free atoms of a godmetal would behave...

[Quantus he/him]

14 hours ago, The Silverlight Scholar said:

I think this is a really cool idea. Another thing to mention is that Zane gave Vin a hunk of lead covered in a thin layer of Atium, so we know that somebody was able to work a god metal with just the tools and knowledge available during TFE.

Per that same WOB, Atium was based on Platinum so I suspect it's simply malleable enough to be shaped without flirting with a phase change where the realmic complications would (I think) start coming into play.   

[+hwiles He/Him]

Regarding malatium, they could have just added powdered atium to molten gold with no technical need to literally melt the atium. Also, the lead ball could have been made by pounding a bead of atium into a thin foil and then hammering it around the lead until it appeared smooth and seamless (at a glance anyway).

I'm not sure that godmetals should have phases considering they are "solidified" Investiture rather than traditional matter. If mist can be condensed into atium/lerasium/harmonium, then I would think that stormlight and Breath could also be condensed into crazy godmetal-like substances. If Investiture from a shardpool can be boiled into its gaseous equivalent, then Endowment is in for serious problems if awakeners ever find the Shardpool on Nalthis...

[Calderis he/him]

We know that lerasium could have been made from the Mists. 

Quote

BlackYeti

Because you've talked about alloying the god metals with other ones-- I was wondering whether you would be able to melt them down as you would with normal metals.

Brandon Sanderson

If you could distill the god metal: you could distill it out of the mist, that's theoretically possible.

source

As far as the melting point... I think that yes, you can melt it and work it that way, but I don't think that molten atium would be the same thing as "Ruin's liquid Investiture." The solid form of Investiture behaves as a metal. Metal melts. 

But "liquid Investiture" is the most concentrated form of Investiture. Melting a god metal isn't going to concentrate it. 

Quote

Kaimipono

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

source

 

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

We know that lerasium could have been made from the Mists. 

As far as the melting point... I think that yes, you can melt it and work it that way, but I don't think that molten atium would be the same thing as "Ruin's liquid Investiture." The solid form of Investiture behaves as a metal. Metal melts. 

But "liquid Investiture" is the most concentrated form of Investiture. Melting a god metal isn't going to concentrate it. 

 

That was my thought as well, which is what made me wonder if there was some other process than heat to accomplish a godmetal phase change, some Investiture equivalent to the very Physical thermal energy overload that causes melting.  The fact that he chose the word "distill" rather than a phase-change verb like freeze, precipitate, or solidify makes me lean toward the idea that it's a more complicated process. All that would still be contingent on that root assumption that Investitures' physiccal forms cannot be forced liquid without more qualitative differences, ie changing godmetal to shardpool fuild to gaseous form.

 

Separately, if you can theoretically make lerasium from Mist, what might you get if you tried that with Stormlight, which has 2-3 different shards invested but also predates them all?

[Karger he/him]

On a related note does shardplate have a melting point? How does the stuff react to heat at all?

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

On a related note does shardplate have a melting point? How does the stuff react to heat at all?

There are "molten" bits when it shatters, but beyond that no clue. 

[Karger he/him]

I wonder if Navani has tried?

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Plate (and Blades) are a bit valuable to be messed with in potentially destructive ways so...probably not.

[Quantus he/him]

12 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

Plate (and Blades) are a bit valuable to be messed with in potentially destructive ways so...probably not.

I actually dont think so in the case of Plate, as long as it's fed enough stormlight you can regenerate an entire set from a tiny single piece, so they could easily experiment on one sacrificial chunk and then regrow it.