Nightblood and Sazed

[+Child of Hodor]

Here is a likely incorrect theory based on a random connection I made while reading some WoBs. Harmony is composed of Preservation and Ruin, but it has more Ruin because Preservation was used to give humans on Scadrial sentience. Brandon has teased that Sazed is doing something with that extra Ruin. It's likely something on the planet that will be covered in The Lost Metal since that alludes to Atium the solid form manifestation of Ruin's Investiture which no longer exists due to Ati dying and Sazed picking up two Shards. 

BUT, it occurs to me that Brandon said Nightblood contains Ruin's investiture and that it's not just residual trace amounts that are all over the Cosmere. Did Endowment work with Sazed to put Ruin's investiture in Nightblood to give it that extra oomph? I think Endowment helped because Nightblood is her world (we're just living in it) and giving things a little extra is Endowment's whole deal. It seems like something she would do. 

http://www.17thshard.com/news/shardcast/shardcast-endowment-r425/?do=findComment&comment=4673

The timeline may work out OK for this as Warbreaker takes place after MB Era 1 but before Alloy of Law. Now Nightblood was made centuries before Warbreaker takes place, so Sazed may o r may not have ascended by that time, but it could work.  

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17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 25, 2012)
#1Sept. 26, 2012 Share  Copy

rags

How is Harmony balanced when a part of Preservation's power is expended on human sentience? Isn't that what caused all the trouble to begin with?

Brandon Sanderson

Indeed. Hm... What could Sazed be doing with that extra power...

 

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Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)
#7 

Walin [PENDING REVIEW]

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it.

 

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#2 

Windrunner

When is Emperor's Soul set chronologically in relation to Elantris? Because if its around the same time Teod and Arelon might not have to stand alone against the Fjordell Empire.

My other question is also a timeline one. (There are a lot of those tonight haha) I heard you had to move The Way of Kings a little bit due to some plot constraints. So does Warbreakerstill fall around the same time as The Alloy of Law or has that shifted as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Thanks for the kind words! Emperor's Soul is after Elantris, but not too long after. It is before Mistborn.

Second question is that I've moved things so that The Way of Kings is around the same time as The Alloy of Law, forced by some behind-the-scenes events. Warbreaker now happens before The Alloy of Law.

 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Jace21 he/him]

This seems plausible, but has a couple of issues.

The timeline you mentioned already, Sazed had probably ascended already when NB was made but he may not have been.

The other is, why?

We know that forces are actively working to limit Harmony's knowledge and cosmere awareness. He even seems surprised by the contents of Hoids letter, most of it is new to him. I find it unlikely that he used investiture in another Solar System to create a crazy sword of destruction over a century ago when he is so ignorant.

[+Zodiac he/him]

I personally feel that Ruins extra investiture is going into the creation of Atium, which we'll see in the lost metal. That probably still leaves room for nightblood, but Harmony is still mostly Sazed at this point, and I can't see Sazed having anything to do with the creation of nightblood. 

[Quantus he/him]

Oh Nice!  I didnt know Brandon had actually confirmed that Nightblood has any of Ruin's Investiture specifically

[+Child of Hodor]

51 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

This seems plausible, but has a couple of issues.

The timeline you mentioned already, Sazed had probably ascended already when NB was made but he may not have been.

The other is, why?

We know that forces are actively working to limit Harmony's knowledge and cosmere awareness. He even seems surprised by the contents of Hoids letter, most of it is new to him. I find it unlikely that he used investiture in another Solar System to create a crazy sword of destruction over a century ago when he is so ignorant.

Yeah, Sazed would have had to do it very soon after his Ascension based on the timeline, making Nightblood is a very un-Sazed thing to do. For motive I'm thinking he was trying to balance himself out and wanted to deposit the extra Ruin somewhere else. 

The biggest problem with my theory is that Sazed would have to know about Nalthis and likely work with another Shard. Yet he seems very surprised by Hoid's letter as you say and in Era 2 he seems to have no idea what's going on on his own planet much less the rest of the Cosmere. 

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Discussing the Red Haze in Bands of Mourning "You didn't tell me what it was" Wax said.  "That is because I do not know."

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Discussing Bleeder in Shadows of Self: Something is wrong, unfortunately. "What?" Wax asked. God was silent for a time. I don't know yet.

[RShara she/her]

Nightblood would have been made before Sazed Ascended, given he was made around the time of the Manywar. Warbreaker takes place between Era 1 and Era 2, which is around 300 years. The Manywar was about 300 years before that.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

But isn't there a WoB out there that says Nightblood has grown more powerful? Could be the reason Nightblood is growing stronger is that he is absorbing ruin's extra investiture.... With sazed feeding him from afar.... Maybe hoid told him about Nightblood in his letter.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Steel Inqusitive

[Jace21 he/him]

16 minutes ago, RShara said:

Nightblood would have been made before Sazed Ascended, given he was made around the time of the Manywar. Warbreaker takes place between Era 1 and Era 2, which is around 300 years. The Manywar was about 300 years before that.

You're right when I said his ascension was probably I was thinking 300 years pre-Warbreaker was the first returned, not the Manywar.

That said the time line is too vague to be 100% sure Sazed hasn't ascended.

But as we've said, he is too ignorant to be involved with other worlds and doesn't seem the type to make Nightblood anyway.

2 minutes ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

But isn't there a WoB out there that says Nightblood has grown more powerful? Could be the reason Nightblood is growing stronger is that he is absorbing ruin's extra investiture.... With sazed feeding him from afar.... Maybe hoid told him about Nightblood in his letter.

The WoB hinting Nightblood has grown more powerful far precedes the letter in Oathbringer so I doubt Brandon was referring to post-letter Nightblood when he said it.

[Wandering Investor]

So this is one of the most interesting theories I've seen in awhile. I don't think its right, but still, good job. As for why its not right, others have mentioned the timeline issue. There are roughly 300 years between Era1 and Era2. There are also roughly 300 years between the Manywar(when Nightblood was made) and Warbreaker. We also know that Warbreaker took place before Era 2. Far enough for at least one more book on Nalthis, as well as the trip over to Roshar. Now Brandon could fudge that about 300 years part, but that would still require Harmony to have invested Nightblood very soon after ascension.

Of course this still raises the question of how Ruin's investiture was placed in Nightblood. The timeline makes it unlikely that Ati or Harmony would have been responsible, as Ati was imprisoned, and Harmony too new. Brandon has refereed to Nightblood's investiture as corrupted, perhaps another shard co-opted Ruin's investiture.

 

@Steel Inqusitive I haven't heard of this quote, if you see it can you post it?

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

You all should be proud of me! I looked up a WoB:-)

Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

Nightblood is the most ridiculously over-invested thing in the Cosmere, second only to the Shards?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

Was this true from the moment of his creation, or did it grow in power over time.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Grew in power over time. Kind of answers a question that people have been wondering. But, yes.

 

I agree that timing is off...

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Jace21 said:

That said the time line is too vague to be 100% sure Sazed hasn't ascended.

No it's not. There's a 300 year gap between Era 1 and Era 2. Era 2 takes place at the earliest in the gap between stormlight arc 1 and arc 2 (possibly as far forward as Stormlight 7). Vasher has been on Roshar long enough to earn his reputation as a sword master and train Adolin in the sword (and however he became an Ardent in the first place). Plus however long there is between Warbreaker for the events of Nightblood to occur and then from there to Vasher and Nightblood reaching Roshar.

I don't see any way for the Manywar to have landed after Harmony's ascension, even if Warbreaker is relatively close to SA. I personally think its closer to Era 1, but we can't prove where exactly. 

[Jace21 he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

No it's not. There's a 300 year gap between Era 1 and Era 2. 

If thats exact then sure.

All the sources I could find for both Manywar-Warbreaker and Catacendre-Era 2 said something to the effect of "about 300 years". 

If that means 300 give or take 15 years then we have a potential 30 year period for Nightblood amd Vashers establishment on Roshar to happen.

Like I said, unlikely and I personally agree that warbreaker is closer to Era 1 than Era 2.

But not actaully impossible.

[RShara she/her]

11 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

If thats exact then sure.

All the sources I could find for both Manywar-Warbreaker and Catacendre-Era 2 said something to the effect of "about 300 years". 

If that means 300 give or take 15 years then we have a potential 30 year period for Nightblood amd Vashers establishment on Roshar to happen.

Like I said, unlikely and I personally agree that warbreaker is closer to Era 1 than Era 2.

But not actaully impossible.

It was 330 years exactly since the Sovereign arrived on Southern Scadrial, which was 10 years after Catacendre. So it's exactly 340  years since Harmony Ascended between Era 1 and 2. Era 2 takes place during SA 6 or maybe even 7, which is 15-20 years after SA 5.

Give time for the events of Nightblood to happen, Vasher getting to Roshar, and then earning a place in the ardentia and become reknowned enough to be known as a swordmaster, and have trained Adolin (which would have been 10-15 years ago itself), and it really doesn't work out.

Edited October 12, 2018 by RShara

[Jace21 he/him]

Given your timeline:

SA 6 - 340 years after catacendre

Current SA - 320 years after catacendre

Vasher trains Adolin - 305 years after Catacendre

Warbreaker - ????

Manywar - about 300 years before Warbreaker, say min 285.

That would give us at about 20 years from the End of Warbreaker until Vasher train Adolin, during which Nightblood happens, he moves to Roshar and becomes an Ardent.

Incredibly unlikely yes, but all I claimed was that it was possible.

That said, I think Nightblood was made pre-Catacendre too, even ignoring tge timing issue, I dont think Sazed is Cosmere aware enough to have worked with another shard in another solar system to create a sword that mixes both Shards investiture.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

Is Sazed even ABLE to use Ruin’s Investiture or Preservation’s Investiture alone? Aren’t they fused together now? I don’t think he would necessarily have to anyway; one could argue that the purpose of a sword is to preserve by destroying, so theoretically the command ‘Destroy Evil’ would imply elements of both.

[goody153]

I highly doubt that much Ruin investiture is on nightblood. That was literally equivalent to preservation giving sapience to Scadrians literally an entire race. 

Also Sazed has never willed himself into another planet that means he never worldhopped which would imply that Endowment has to be the one who would go to Scadrial which doesn't make sense cause Endowment is one of those who hasn't mingled with another shard(process of elimination on the oathbringer letters). Such cooperation would also imply that Sazed should already know the history of the shards/yolen/adonalsium which he still seeks 

Besides Nightblood was made before the events proper of Stormlight Archives which was like even before Warbreaker(Manywar) 

[+robardin he/him]

I can't see how Nightblood could have been directly made of or with physical Investiture de Ruin (if it's not called atium after Ati's demise as a Vessel, what would it be?), but I wondered if Nightblood might somehow be drawing upon Ruin in a mechanical (passive or involuntary) way, by his very nature.

However, the way that Brandon phrased it in that WoB - "What could Sazed be doing with that extra power", as opposed to "what could be happening to balance out Harmony's surplus of Ruin?" - implies that Sazed is actively choosing to do something to shunt it off in order to maintain balance. And for storytelling purposes, I don't think it'd be as obvious/mundane as to create little nuggets of dezasium, with whatever properties that might have different from pre-Catacendre atium.  (Since Sazed identified in his mortal life as being "of Preservation", that could be the name for "Reverse Sazed-ium", yeah?)

Feeding it to Nightblood somehow (after it was already created, not during its creation) would make sense, as it'd "stay given away" and not re-coalesce, and also suits the Intent of the power, and it's very possible for Harmony to have "met" Nightblood. While Sazed is relatively unaware of the backstory of the rest of the Cosmere, he does know it exists. Per other WoBs there are kandra agents on Roshar, at a time when Nightblood has been on Roshar for some time, and would have had to get there via the Cognitive Realm.

That, or the "extra Ruin" is driving whatever the "Excisors" are that the Southern Scadrians have access to, some kind of permanent hemalurgic construct.

Edited October 12, 2018 by robardin

[Calderis he/him]

Guess I need to put the idea here too. 

The whole Patji = Autonomy situation has shown us that natural accumulations if the Shards investiture can develop outside of a shards sphere of influence. That's how Autonomy made her Avatars according to the super long confusion Autonomy WoB. She reached out through the Spiritual and found a piece of her own power to... Do something to. 

I think on if these pockets of Ruin existed on Nalthis, and the combination of a natural accumulation, and a command that aligned with it are what happened with Nightblood. 

Brandon has said that remaking something like Nightblood would be very hard...

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Megasif [PENDING REVIEW]

In London I wanted to ask about Nightblood. The way he is Invested, is that a one-off-case kind of thing, or is it possible to do another of that level?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It was really bizarre, and I will explain it eventually and that will let you know why. It's theoretically possible to do almost anything so it's theoretically possible to do what he did but it'd be very hard.

source

If the command in itself were enough, this wouldn't be bizarre or difficult. But the proper command in the right circumstances? 

So I think that Nightblood is essentially a mixed Splinter of Ruin and Endowment, through no conscious decision on Ati's part, and a very conscious one on Endowment's. 

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OrangeJedi [PENDING REVIEW]

When Nightblood created, was Endowment involved in any way more than normal?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Good question, you qualified that the right way! I would say yes, but maybe not to the extent you're thinking.

OrangeJedi [PENDING REVIEW]

Normal being using Endowment's Investiture to Awaken. There's something special.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I would say, there is something special.

source

As to what Sazed is doing with that extra Ruin, it has to be on Scadrial. Yes, Sazed is aware the Cosmere exists, but he doesn't know much about it, because things are actively working to limit his knowledge.

I don't believe Nightblood has ever entered Harmony's sphere of influence with the time lines, especially if it somehow were to work out that he were made after Sazed's ascension. It would just be to insanely tight a thread to squeeze in. 

Now as to what happens with Nightblood once Sazed becomes aware of it... That's interesting. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Calderis

[+Child of Hodor]

21 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Guess I need to put the idea here too. 

The whole Patji = Autonomy situation has shown us that natural accumulations if the Shards investiture can develop outside of a shards sphere of influence. That's how Autonomy made her Avatars according to the super long confusion Autonomy WoB. She reached out through the Spiritual and found a piece of her own power to... Do something to. 

I think on if these pockets of Ruin existed on Nalthis, and the combination of a natural accumulation, and a command that aligned with it are what happened with Nightblood. 

Brandon has said that remaking something like Nightblood would be very hard...

If the command in itself were enough, this wouldn't be bizarre or difficult. But the proper command in the right circumstances? 

So I think that Nightblood is essentially a mixed Splinter of Ruin and Endowment, through no conscious decision on Ati's part, and a very conscious one on Endowment's. 

As to what Sazed is doing with that extra Ruin, it has to be on Scadrial. Yes, Sazed is aware the Cosmere exists, but he doesn't know much about it, because things are actively working to limit his knowledge.

I don't believe Nightblood has ever entered Harmony's sphere of influence with the time lines, especially if it somehow were to work out that he were made after Sazed's ascension. It would just be to insanely tight a thread to squeeze in. 

Now as to what happens with Nightblood once Sazed becomes aware of it... That's interesting. 

Are you saying Endowment wrapped up a clump of Ruin investiture on purpose as nice present and put it in there for her own purposes? That's what I think happened. I had the thought Sazed might have reason to work with her to stick some of his excess Ruin, but it doesn't really fit with his overall Cosmere cluelessness and the window of opportunity is very tight based on the timeline.   

I like the idea of the mechanics you describe: Endowment positioned a chunk of Ruin in the right place and right time so that the Destroy Evil command would pull it in. 

By giving Nightblood that extra boost Endowment put a superweapon in the hands of Worldhoppers who had already been to Roshar and then Nightblood ended up on Roshar. As Endowment said in her letter to Hoid: "If Rayse becomes an issue, he will be dealt with."

 

 

[Calderis he/him]

6 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Are you saying Endowment wrapped up a clump of Ruin investiture on purpose as nice present and put it in there for her own purposes?

I don't think that part was intentional no. I think Nightblood tapped into a natural accumulation of Ruin's Investiture, and Endowment decided to intercede and give it something in an attempt to balance it out. 

It amounts to much the same thing, but I think it was less planned and more reactionary, taking advantage of what was happening to use for her own purposes. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Guess I need to put the idea here too. 

The whole Patji = Autonomy situation has shown us that natural accumulations if the Shards investiture can develop outside of a shards sphere of influence. That's how Autonomy made her Avatars according to the super long confusion Autonomy WoB. She reached out through the Spiritual and found a piece of her own power to... Do something to. 

I think on if these pockets of Ruin existed on Nalthis, and the combination of a natural accumulation, and a command that aligned with it are what happened with Nightblood. 

Brandon has said that remaking something like Nightblood would be very hard...

If the command in itself were enough, this wouldn't be bizarre or difficult. But the proper command in the right circumstances? 

So I think that Nightblood is essentially a mixed Splinter of Ruin and Endowment, through no conscious decision on Ati's part, and a very conscious one on Endowment's. 

As to what Sazed is doing with that extra Ruin, it has to be on Scadrial. Yes, Sazed is aware the Cosmere exists, but he doesn't know much about it, because things are actively working to limit his knowledge.

I don't believe Nightblood has ever entered Harmony's sphere of influence with the time lines, especially if it somehow were to work out that he were made after Sazed's ascension. It would just be to insanely tight a thread to squeeze in. 

Now as to what happens with Nightblood once Sazed becomes aware of it... That's interesting. 

Would Nightblood technically even be directly related to Harmony though? If Harmony was formed only of the Investiture that Leras and Ati were in command of on Scadrial, as opposed to all of it in existence, then technically Ruin and Preservation individually would be independent from the merging that occurred in the Scadrial system. Assuming Harmony truly is (or at least is becoming) a Shard unto itself.

[Calderis he/him]

6 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Would Nightblood technically even be directly related to Harmony though? If Harmony was formed only of the Investiture that Leras and Ati were in command of on Scadrial, as opposed to all of it in existence, then technically Ruin and Preservation individually would be independent from the merging that occurred in the Scadrial system. Assuming Harmony truly is (or at least is becoming) a Shard unto itself.

I mean... They're linked but separate. They would drop together, but if split would go back to what they were. After the recent tangent in the "Trell is not Autonomy" thread, I really don't want to dump all those WoBs here again, but Harmony should be all of Ruin and Preservation everywhere, in the same way as Autonomy can reach out anywhere through the Spiritual. 

So any ruin, even that in Nightblood, is associated with him. If it's outside of his sphere, and he's not aware of it, he can't do anything with that. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Calderis

[Ripheus23]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

I don't think that part was intentional no. I think Nightblood tapped into a natural accumulation of Ruin's Investiture, and Endowment decided to intercede and give it something in an attempt to balance it out. 

It amounts to much the same thing, but I think it was less planned and more reactionary, taking advantage of what was happening to use for her own purposes. 

It would have to be more like this (if this were the kind of mechanism in question); if it was the result of Edgli's conscious scheming, then presumably there wouldn't be much of a risk of making more Nightbloods?