[OB] oathstones, Shin, and the sibling (spoilers)

[Red Ferring]

I’m thinking the third sibling is stone-themed. The way that nightwatcher is about life and plants, stormfather is about the wind and skies, I think the third sibling is about the stone. 

A couple of reasons:

the shin worship stone. We know now the Shin are a more pure lineage from the original humans that arrived on Roshar, nestled in a little pocket of terrain made for them that was more akin to their homeworld. and they have their own unique religion that has a reverence toward stone being sacred. Having a major spren (like one of the Siblings) being about the stone would make sense to capture the religious focus of the Shin to worship it. the Stormfather did that for the rest of humanity with the highstorms which we know don’t reach the Shin.

Plus, Szeth’s oathstone. What if it’s more than his loyalty and discipline to obey the holder of that stone.   what if it’s more about the fact it has something to do with their deity being all about the stone. And it being a spren that tries to inspire men to keep oaths just like Stormfather. 

Thoughts?

[King Cole]

3 minutes ago, Red Ferring said:

I’m thinking the third sibling is stone-themed. The way that nightwatcher is about life and plants, stormfather is about the wind and skies, I think the third sibling is about the stone. 

A couple of reasons:

the shin worship stone. We know now the Shin are a more pure lineage from the original humans that arrived on Roshar, nestled in a little pocket of terrain made for them that was more akin to their homeworld. and they have their own unique religion that has a reverence toward stone being sacred. Having a major spren (like one of the Siblings) being about the stone would make sense to capture the religious focus of the Shin to worship it. the Stormfather did that for the rest of humanity with the highstorms which we know don’t reach the Shin.

Plus, Szeth’s oathstone. What if it’s more than his loyalty and discipline to obey the holder of that stone.   what if it’s more about the fact it has something to do with their deity being all about the stone. And it being a spren that tries to inspire men to keep oaths just like Stormfather. 

Thoughts?

Might tie in with how it's related to Urithiru. I really like this idea

[Sadspren]

Ohh, this is clever! Definitely a very plausible theory. 

[Quantus]

I like this idea a lot, if for somewhat selfish reasons.  I had an idea about the sibling and it fits really well with the idea of the Sibling being Stone/Earth themed:  I submit to you that the entire Rosharan landmass is the result of a giant, motionless/slumbering Cryptic, whose fractal form is causing a raised ripple in the surface it's resting on, just like Pattern but on a planetary scale (as you'd expect of a contemporary of the Stormfather). 

[The Invested Beard]

Yeah on my current re-read I'm really noticing this connection. There is something super important going on with the Shin, spren of stone, and the Sibling. Have an upthingy!

[Quantus]

Lets chase this a second: Cryptics are a bit more tangible than other spren, they are more constantly manifest in the Physical Realm. If the continent and/or fractal cities are giant Cryptics, it would a ton of sense that the Shin (culturally aware of that fact, if maybe lost on all the details) would view the stone itself as sacred and not to be walked on or especially worked masonry: that would be literally mutilating their gods.  It wouldnt be about a general association with stone, they'd see it as the literal body of their spren deities. 

[The Invested Beard]

I think they're more closely connected to Odium's spren. They look like Shin and cannot fly, they have to be touching stone or something solid to manifest in the physical realm. See Ulim's introduction and the yellow spren leading the escaped parshmen in Oathbringer.

[Cojiro]

I absolutely feel that the third sibling is stone. In the text of the Eila Stele, the Singers say: " For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind." If this was before the start of the Desolations, their gods couldn't be their ancestors, and Odium was named as being humankind's first god, not the Singers'. So the 'gods' they are talking about are likely to be either Cultivation, Honor and whoever this third one is that relates to stone, or The Stormfather, the Nightwatcher and whoever this third superspren is, and I'd be willing to bet they're related to stone.

[Jaelin]

Good theory!

I suspect that the 3rd sibling was the one that was bonded at the time of the Recreance and was damaged severely by the actions of the Radiants at that time.

We know that the sibling itself slumbers, would it be possible that it is in fact slumbering in Shinovar? - This could be why the Shin are so sacred about stone? This could also possibly be why the Shin were entrusted with the keeping of the honorblades? Although, we saw a Shin man finding them after Aharietem, so the two things may be separate and different.

Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if Shinovar plays a big part in the next book. Especially with Szeth's stated crusade.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Jaelin

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, Jaelin said:

I suspect that the 3rd sibling was the one that was bonded at the time of the Recreance and was damaged severely by the actions of the Radiants at that time.

The gemstone archive seems to imply that it the Sibling had retreated before the Recreance, as the note saying goodbye to it was made by a Radiant. 

Furthermore, Pattern implies in WoR that the Stormfather was hurt by the Recreance, making it likely that he was the one bonded at the time.

Quote

Stormfather. Shallan pulled the blanket around her closer. “An entire people, all killed?”

“Not just one people,” Pattern said, solemn. “Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors.

The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance.”

- Words of Radiance, Chapter 75

 

[Jaelin]

49 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The gemstone archive seems to imply that it the Sibling had retreated before the Recreance, as the note saying goodbye to it was made by a Radiant. 

Furthermore, Pattern implies in WoR that the Stormfather was hurt by the Recreance, making it likely that he was the one bonded at the time.

We also know that the Recreance wasn't a single event but an extended process. I think there's a fair argument to suggest that the gemstone archives may chronicle the Recreance, as there are many references to Radiants "leaving" - this could be just the leaving of Urithiru but it could also be them giving up on their oaths. The radiant saying "goodbye sibling" might not be saying goodbye as the Sibling is leaving but because they are leaving the sibling.

The WoR quote you provided is quite good and persuasive though. I do wonder why it is referred to as "sibling" in the records though, not stormfather. I also wonder why the unnamed sibling is slumbering and needs to be protected from interference by the Stormfather. That would imply greater hurt to me, but it could be something else I guess.

[Spoolofwhool]

9 hours ago, Jaelin said:

The WoR quote you provided is quite good and persuasive though. I do wonder why it is referred to as "sibling" in the records though, not stormfather.

Probably because they were talking about an unbonded Sibling retreating from the world.

[Leuthie]

I'm convinced that Shinovar's different ecosystem is a direct result of the Sibling "sleeping" there.  The Stormfather leaves that land alone in respect for his sister/brother, letting the stone cover with soil and plants.  The culture considers walking on stone to be sacrilege.

Stormfather is Honor's.  Nightwatcher is Cultivation's.  The Sibling is a child of both; of bonds and directed growth.  What we know of the Shin culture reflects this.

The Sibling is a powerful stone spren sleeping in Shinovar, worshipped by the Shin people.

[teknopathetic]

2 hours ago, Leuthie said:

I'm convinced that Shinovar's different ecosystem is a direct result of the Sibling "sleeping" there.  The Stormfather leaves that land alone in respect for his sister/brother, letting the stone cover with soil and plants.  The culture considers walking on stone to be sacrilege.

Stormfather is Honor's.  Nightwatcher is Cultivation's.  The Sibling is a child of both; of bonds and directed growth.  What we know of the Shin culture reflects this.

The Sibling is a powerful stone spren sleeping in Shinovar, worshipped by the Shin people.

Thats how I feel about the Horneater Peaks (big stones abnormally temperate)

[StormblessedSurvivor]

15 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Furthermore, Pattern implies in WoR that the Stormfather was hurt by the Recreance, making it likely that he was the one bonded at the time.

I supect the Stormfather would have been killed if he was bonded during the Recreance; after Dalinar summons the Stormfather as a Shardblade, he says to Dalinar "It is either this or oblivion."

[Calderis]

8 minutes ago, StormblessedSurvivor said:

I supect the Stormfather would have been killed if he was bonded during the Recreance; after Dalinar summons the Stormfather as a Shardblade, he says to Dalinar "It is either this or oblivion."

The Stormfather could end the bond if he wished. 

Quote

Extesian

Simple, harmless, totally non-contro one. Can a spren unilaterally sever a Nahel bond (i.e. where the Radiant doesn't agree and hasn't technically, according to spren and Radiant, broken an oath)?

Brandon Sanderson

Yup, no controversy here at all.

This is possible. But I'm not going to go into the mechanics.

source

"oblivion" has to be referring to something greater than their bond. 

[Spoolofwhool]

9 hours ago, StormblessedSurvivor said:

I supect the Stormfather would have been killed if he was bonded during the Recreance; after Dalinar summons the Stormfather as a Shardblade, he says to Dalinar "It is either this or oblivion."

I disagree. That line by the Stormfather seems to be referring to the lot he threw in with Dalinar, that he had to bond with him and work with him, with the alternative being that Odium would win and he would be destroyed. Pattern's line seems to very strongly indicate that the Stormfather survived the event which killed many spren, which would've been the sundering of the bonds they held. 

[StormblessedSurvivor]

True...now, considering the context, Dalinar apologizes for summoning the Stormfather, who basically says bonding Dalinar was his only good option (if you get my meaning-I just mean that he had to bond a Bondsmith).

[Turtle373]

What if the sibling was Urithiru and was somehow damaged and when it was damaged the "life support" functions of urithiru stopped working, 

Quote

"The wilting of plants and the general cooling of the air is disagreeable, yes, but some of the tower's functions remain in place. The increased pressure, for example, persists."

OB ch 69 epigraph

and there's also this one

Quote

"Good night, dear Urithiru. Good night, sweet Sibling. Good night, Radiants."

OB ch 87 epigraph

the radiant is saying goodbye to Urithiru and the sibling at the same time, as if by leaving Urithiru they're leaving the sibling

[FirstSelector]

I have written about this before, specifically how the Sibling is related to Urithiru.  Down in the comments there's some discussion about the connection to stone.

It is, I think, possible for both of these ideas to be true.  That is to say, Urithiru was shaped out of the stone of Roshar.  The Sibling, being the spren of Urithiru itself, was likely the biggest stone-like spren around.  The Shin religion was likely shaped by this fact, and the fact that Urithiru was probably wrought in one piece by Honor and Cultivation.  This makes the stone of Urithiru holy (as Szeth mentions) and the most obvious manifestation of Honor's goodwill towards his people on Roshar.