Questions of Ascension

[RShara]

"While he/she was Ascended" would probably be the easiest thing.

[Fanghur Rahl]

23 hours ago, RShara said:

"While he/she was Ascended" would probably be the easiest thing.

I don’t really see why the term ‘sliver’ couldn’t apply to them then as well. Honestly, I always thought it was kind of silly for someone who used to hold part of a Shard’s power to be called a ‘Sliver’, but inexplicably the term not to apply while they still held it. It’s a little like only calling someone an investor after they’ve already sold their shares.

[RShara]

20 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

I don’t really see why the term ‘sliver’ couldn’t apply to them then as well. Honestly, I always thought it was kind of silly for someone who used to hold part of a Shard’s power to be called a ‘Sliver’, but inexplicably the term not to apply while they still held it. It’s a little like only calling someone an investor after they’ve already sold their shares.

I get it, but that's the definition we've been given, so that's what we go with :/

[Scion of the Mists]

53 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

I don’t really see why the term ‘sliver’ couldn’t apply to them then as well. Honestly, I always thought it was kind of silly for someone who used to hold part of a Shard’s power to be called a ‘Sliver’, but inexplicably the term not to apply while they still held it. It’s a little like only calling someone an investor after they’ve already sold their shares.

Because there's a huge difference between someone who's currently in control of a Shard and someone who isn't.  There is an absurdly large power differential between them: compare Kelsier to Rayse.  

Yes, we should have a term for both.  And I think that Sliver may have made more sense as the term for someone who is currently Ascended, but that's not what Brandon has defined it as.  

[Fanghur Rahl]

1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Because there's a huge difference between someone who's currently in control of a Shard and someone who isn't.  There is an absurdly large power differential between them: compare Kelsier to Rayse.  

Yes, we should have a term for both.  And I think that Sliver may have made more sense as the term for someone who is currently Ascended, but that's not what Brandon has defined it as.  

I’m not talking about someone holding a full Shard; Slivers only ever hold/held a tiny fraction of the Shard’s full Investiture (unless the term would also apply to a full Vessel who baton passes the Shard to someone else?). That aside though, I get that ultimately Brandon is the one who gets to define canonical terms. I just think that in this particular case he did a rather silly job of it.

[Calderis]

58 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

I’m not talking about someone holding a full Shard; Slivers only ever hold/held a tiny fraction of the Shard’s full Investiture (unless the term would also apply to a full Vessel who baton passes the Shard to someone else?). That aside though, I get that ultimately Brandon is the one who gets to define canonical terms. I just think that in this particular case he did a rather silly job of it.

Yes, a former Vessel would also be a Sliver. 

[Fanghur Rahl]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Yes, a former Vessel would also be a Sliver. 

Is there any kind of canonical threshold that distinguishes a ‘Sliver’ from someone who merely uses Investiture? Would a full Radiant technically qualify due to the huge amounts of Honor’s Investiture they regularly absorb and release?

[Scion of the Mists]

29 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Is there any kind of canonical threshold that distinguishes a ‘Sliver’ from someone who merely uses Investiture? Would a full Radiant technically qualify due to the huge amounts of Honor’s Investiture they regularly absorb and release?

There's not a firm threshold that Brandon has identified, but a Radiant wouldn't make it.  Neither would even a full Lerasium Mistborn.  Basically you have to have hold at least a sizable chunk of a Shard.  I think a good rule of thumb would be "do you consider this person to have Ascended?"  Mistborns and Radiants (with the possible exception of Dalinar) do not Ascend.  The Lord Ruler, Kelsier, and Vin did.  

[Ripheus23]

Since the word we're debating implies upward ascent(!), maybe a Sliver is a Sliver just because they only temporarily were "in" the Spiritual Realm (as a physical being or whatever), whereas the Shards remain in that "place."

[Calderis]

21 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Since the word we're debating implies upward ascent(!), maybe a Sliver is a Sliver just because they only temporarily were "in" the Spiritual Realm (as a physical being or whatever), whereas the Shards remain in that "place."

I think this may actually be the key to what "ascension" actually is. Physical body remaining, or post-physical being is irrelevant. If you have held enough investiture that you, inherently, have access to and are able to touch and manipulate the Spiritual, you've ascended. Dalinar may have still had a Physical body, but he opened a storming perpendicularity, he obviously touched the Spiritual realm. This would exclude access that is purely a function of the powers alone, like Spiritual adhesion, or duralumin'd atium. 

For the time being, that's my head canon. 

 

[Quantus]

There are a few instances where he said "All or most" of a shard, but aside from that closest thing to a "threshold" I can find is that it by definition has to be enough that the simple act of Holding the Investiture at all causes permanent expansion/changes to the bearer's spirit-web, and becoming a vessel is simply the most common (by far) method of amassing enough Investiture to accomplish it.  Personally I think the only reason that he didnt go with 100% "Former Shards" without all the "most or all" equivocation is just because of the specific circumstance on scadrial where there existed an active Shard who had already had the bulk of his Investiture taken away and left up for grabs. If nothing else it does explain why he settled on "Sliver" as the term. 

Quote

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I call all intelligent species people. If someone takes up the power and lets go of it, it has the effect much like a balloon that's been stretched and then the air is let out. I call that a Sliver; based off of the Lord Ruler calling himself the "Sliver of Infinity". The Lord Ruler is someone who held the power and then released it. And so, current Slivers are the Lord Ruler, Kelsier, and there may be others around who at one point held the power and let go of it. A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.

source

@Fanghur Rahl Correct me if Im wrong but it sounds like your main issue is that the (confirmed, non-vessel) Sliver Rakesh* specifically held the Well but not actually the shard.  It sounds to me though that you believe that the well constitutes a tiny piece of the Vessel's availible Investiture, but I was under the impression that it represented the majority of it.

*Im discounting both Dalinar and the Stormfather as more examples of in-world people using cosmere terms inaccurately, since there's too much debate over the Unity moment and the Stormfather cannot qualify by the WOB definition).

 

 

 

[RShara]

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

There are a few instances where he said "All or most" of a shard, but aside from that closest thing to a "threshold" I can find is that it by definition has to be enough that the simple act of Holding the Investiture at all causes permanent expansion/changes to the bearer's spirit-web, and becoming a vessel is simply the most common (by far) method of amassing enough Investiture to accomplish it.  Personally I think the only reason that he didnt go with 100% "Former Shards" without all the "most or all" equivocation is just because of the specific circumstance on scadrial where there existed an active Shard who had already had the bulk of his Investiture taken away and left up for grabs. If nothing else it does explain why he settled on "Sliver" as the term. 

@Fanghur Rahl Correct me if Im wrong but it sounds like your main issue is that the (confirmed, non-vessel) Sliver Rakesh* specifically held the Well but not actually the shard.  It sounds to me though that you believe that the well constitutes a tiny piece of the Vessel's availible Investiture, but I was under the impression that it represented the majority of it.

*Im discounting both Dalinar and the Stormfather as more examples of in-world people using cosmere terms inaccurately, since there's too much debate over the Unity moment and the Stormfather cannot qualify by the WOB definition).

We don't know exactly how much power was in the Well, but I really don't think it was the majority of Preservation's power. His power was also in the mists, in the lerasium, in the bit of himself he put into people, in the planet, and still enough for the Vessel to be the Vessel, not a Sliver (yet).

[Fanghur Rahl]

I definitely never got the impression that the Well constituted more than a fraction of Preservation’s total power (setting aside the whole ‘infinite power’ thing). But even if I granted that Fuzz allowed 99.999% of his power to pool in the Well, the important distinction I see based on at least my first reading (listening technically) of Mistborn is that Rashek and Vin didn’t absorb the power of the Well into their being, they merely ‘connected’ to it and basically willed it to do what they wanted. Whereas with a full Vessel, they absorb the full power into themselves and effectively transfer their minds into the power.

But again, I could be very much mistaken about this interpretation of the facts, but based on my first reading of Mistborn, that’s the impression I got. Now whether we want to stipulate that nevertheless the same term still ought to be used to describe both processes (the taxonomist in my balks at that but whatever), I still think if nothing else we should at least acknowledge the categorical distinction between the two things, assuming my interpretation of this isn’t completely wrong.

[Bigmikey357]

On 9/30/2018 at 2:37 AM, Yata said:

Actually there isn't a truly difference in what TLR and Vin did. Simply Rashek had access to a drop in the ocean of the Shard's power that once expended (or leaked away) it returned to the system

There is a difference. The difference between the two instances is in fact what inspired my original point. Leras was alive when Rashek 'ascended' although largely mindless. When Vin ascended Leras had faded into the Beyond by then. Kelsier was holding the Shard in-between the time Leras died and Vin assumed the mantle.

3 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

I definitely never got the impression that the Well constituted more than a fraction of Preservation’s total power (setting aside the whole ‘infinite power’ thing). But even if I granted that Fuzz allowed 99.999% of his power to pool in the Well, the important distinction I see based on at least my first reading (listening technically) of Mistborn is that Rashek and Vin didn’t absorb the power of the Well into their being, they merely ‘connected’ to it and basically willed it to do what they wanted. Whereas with a full Vessel, they absorb the full power into themselves and effectively transfer their minds into the power.

But again, I could be very much mistaken about this interpretation of the facts, but based on my first reading of Mistborn, that’s the impression I got. Now whether we want to stipulate that nevertheless the same term still ought to be used to describe both processes (the taxonomist in my balks at that but whatever), I still think if nothing else we should at least acknowledge the categorical distinction between the two things, assuming my interpretation of this isn’t completely wrong.

My interpretation of the events at the Well make me think perpendicularities represent a significant portion of a Shard's power.  Rashek was able to move a planet and change the sDNA of every inhabitant on that planet. 

Ok, great discussions guys. Your comments really started some thoughts percolating. I will share them below. Feel free to dissect.

On thresholds and perpendicularity:

A perpendicularity in the Cosmere is a fixed point in space where Investiture gathers and is so dense that it pierces all three Realms. My rough estimate of a Threshold for Ascension is for a person to hold enough of a Shard's Investiture to make a perpendicularity possible. Basically if you don't hold power at least equal to what was gathered when the Well of Ascension was full then you have not ascended. The difference between Rashek and Dalinar lies in the state of the Shard they ascended to. Preservation was whole when Rashek Ascended, Honor is fragmented. 

Rashek Ascended to a Shard that had a Vessel in residence, Vin Ascended twice. The first time she ascended she held only enough power to ascend. The second time she held more. Remember, the Well was empty so all the power she released went back into the mists. When she ingests all the mists on Scadrial she takes up all the power of Preservation minus the bit that went into every human. Leras had died so the Vessel position was open. Vin took it and was powerful enough to equal a weakened Ati. Dalinar didn't hold enough of Honor to become its Vessel because Honor's power is too spread out and Dalinar has too much influence from the other Shards in system. I guess this makes Dalinar a Sliver and he has the inside track on becoming Honor's next Vessel.

On Autonomy. 

I believe that Badvadin is going to other planetary systems where she accesses and gathers the pieces of creation attibuted to her and shoves them into someone they've picked as an Avatar, likely someone who could encompass Autonomy's Intent. Once they have ascended, Badvadin leaves the system so that her Avatar can continue to hold the power instead of Slivering. We know that magic systems arise from the interaction of a Shard and its Intent with the Planet or System that Shard inhabits. So Autonomy's magic looks different on Taldain, on Scadrial, or in the Drominad System. One thing I'd like to know is just how many Avatars does Badvadin have? And could one of her Avatars hold another Shard like Dominion or Devotion?

[Quantus]

12 hours ago, RShara said:

We don't know exactly how much power was in the Well, but I really don't think it was the majority of Preservation's power. His power was also in the mists, in the lerasium, in the bit of himself he put into people, in the planet, and still enough for the Vessel to be the Vessel, not a Sliver (yet).

That's a fair point, especially with the mists which Leras could actively control, though I suspect that the Lerasium at least was out of his direct reach in the same way the Atium was no longer in Ati's control.  Presumably the Investiture in the population would be bound up in them too (he could fiddle with them via that connection, but probably not retask the investiture for any other use).

 

11 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

I definitely never got the impression that the Well constituted more than a fraction of Preservation’s total power (setting aside the whole ‘infinite power’ thing). But even if I granted that Fuzz allowed 99.999% of his power to pool in the Well, the important distinction I see based on at least my first reading (listening technically) of Mistborn is that Rashek and Vin didn’t absorb the power of the Well into their being, they merely ‘connected’ to it and basically willed it to do what they wanted. Whereas with a full Vessel, they absorb the full power into themselves and effectively transfer their minds into the power.

But again, I could be very much mistaken about this interpretation of the facts, but based on my first reading of Mistborn, that’s the impression I got. Now whether we want to stipulate that nevertheless the same term still ought to be used to describe both processes (the taxonomist in my balks at that but whatever), I still think if nothing else we should at least acknowledge the categorical distinction between the two things, assuming my interpretation of this isn’t completely wrong.

 

That's more or less the root of my thoughts as well (though "Connected" to it is an interesting idea I hadnt considered).  Basically I think that ascension is a non-specific process that just happens to always come with holding a shard, similar to how perpendicularity dont technically need a shard.  I think of Ascension as an advanced form of Savantism, where you've held enough Investiture that your cognitive and spiritual aspects get permanently deformed all in one go, as opposed to via repeated exposure.  It seems to be significant because it represents the point where Investiture starts acting funny (the way there's a quantitative scale boundary between normal physics and Quantum physics.

As far as actually quantifying that threshold, I find myself really liking @Bigmikey357's idea: Ascension requires that you hold an amount of Investiture that would otherwise naturally create a Perpendicularity.   This is certainty something the Well qualifies, regardless of where the rest of Preservation's power was, and it makes a ton of realmic sense that that is where the Investiture's behavior would start getting weird (Divide by Zero style).  And it's a natural, logical and most especially a pre-existing Realmic function, which appeals to me.

 

 

[Fanghur Rahl]

46 minutes ago, Quantus said:

That's a fair point, especially with the mists which Leras could actively control, though I suspect that the Lerasium at least was out of his direct reach in the same way the Atium was no longer in Ati's control.  Presumably the Investiture in the population would be bound up in them too (he could fiddle with them via that connection, but probably not retask the investiture for any other use).

 

 

That's more or less the root of my thoughts as well (though "Connected" to it is an interesting idea I hadnt considered).  Basically I think that ascension is a non-specific process that just happens to always come with holding a shard, similar to how perpendicularity dont technically need a shard.  I think of Ascension as an advanced form of Savantism, where you've held enough Investiture that your cognitive and spiritual aspects get permanently deformed all in one go, as opposed to via repeated exposure.  It seems to be significant because it represents the point where Investiture starts acting funny (the way there's a quantitative scale boundary between normal physics and Quantum physics.

As far as actually quantifying that threshold, I find myself really liking @Bigmikey357's idea: Ascension requires that you hold an amount of Investiture that would otherwise naturally create a Perpendicularity.   This is certainty something the Well qualifies, regardless of where the rest of Preservation's power was, and it makes a ton of realmic sense that that is where the Investiture's behavior would start getting weird (Divide by Zero style).  And it's a natural, logical and most especially a pre-existing Realmic function, which appeals to me.

 

 

To be clear, I was using the term ‘connected’ in a colloquial sense, not in the sense it is used in Cosmere lore. I confess I don’t really know what the term means in that context. Like I said a few posts ago, I think the closest analogy I can come up with for what I believe happens with the Well of Ascension is Richard Rahl connecting to the Power of Orden at the end of Confessor; they gain the ability to command the power, but they never actually become the power. Whereas a vessel literally becomes one with the Investiture. But like I said, this may just be arguing semantics insofar as whether both these processes should merit the label of ‘ascension’ or not. Though I still maintain that ‘transcension’ would be a better term for the latter.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Quantus]

23 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

To be clear, I was using the term ‘connected’ in a colloquial sense, not in the sense it is used in Cosmere lore. I confess I don’t really know what the term means in that context. Like I said a few posts ago, I think the closest analogy I can come up with for what I believe happens with the Well of Ascension is Richard Rahl connecting to the Power of Orden at the end of Confessor; they gain the ability to command the power, but they never actually become the power. Whereas a vessel literally becomes one with the Investiture. But like I said, this may just be arguing semantics insofar as whether both these processes should merit the label of ‘ascension’ or not. Though I still maintain that ‘transcension’ would be a better term for the latter.

Im with you on that, I see it as the difference between holding & releasing a boatload of Investiture that just happens to be from Preservation, vs actually bonding/connecting/holding the Intent of Preservation and thus having a theoretical connection to all aspects of Preservation throughout the Cosmere.  

[Calderis]

In all instances, the power becomes a part of them. That's what makes them a Sliver in the first place. 

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

What kind of changes do Slivers go through after letting go of a Shard's power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It leaves them, imagine it like a balloon that has been deflated.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Okay, so would Rashek still have had powers?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He would have had some residual effects. But it also works the soul in weird ways, like a balloon that has been deflated.

source

It fills them up and leaves their spiritweb altered. 

[Quantus]

23 hours ago, Calderis said:

In all instances, the power becomes a part of them. That's what makes them a Sliver in the first place. 

It fills them up and leaves their spiritweb altered. 

I wonder if the source Shard of that Investiture has any effect on the nature of those changes