Madness of the Heralds Part Two

[Blightsong he/him]

Introduction

After writing up my theory on the voices various characters throughout the series seem to hear I realized we didn't really know what these voices even were. I gave my best idea on why they affect the people they do but not what they were, so after thinking about it I found the answer I came up with to be quite simple and obvious so I thought I'd share my reasoning. If you find any discrepancies or stuff that doesn't make sense, please drop a comment. Enjoy!

TLDR;

Spoiler

They are instances of slightly aware Cognitive Shadows

What We Know

First, let's take a look at what we know about these screams. Nale has had this to say about them:

Quote

He’d called it an effect of Szeth’s connection to the powers, and said that he was hearing trembles from the Spiritual Realm. Memories of the dead he’d killed.

Brandon has further backed up what Nale gave us with this quote (which references the passage from Szeth's POV that I've put below as well).

Quote

Phantoms appeared, created from Stormlight by the woman with the red hair. These were the shadows in the darkness, the ones he heard whispering of his murders. How she brought them to life, he did not know.

Quote

Questioner:

How are Shallan's Lightweavings related to the screams that Szeth hears?

Brandon Sanderson:

In that they are slightly attached to the Spiritual Realm. 

Brandon's response here stands out to me here for one reason in particular. He says that they are "slightly" attached to the spiritual realm. With the Nale quote above I'd always assumed this meant that what caused them was Spiritual in nature, but it seems like that is only the method through which they communicate with whoever they are haunting. This lead me to one conclusion; they are Cognitive Shadows.

Cognitive Shadows

Before I explain why this makes sense, read what Khriss has to say about what Cognitive Shaodws are realmatically:

Quote

A spirit infused with extra Investiture will often imprint upon that very power. Much as the spren of Roshar become self-aware over time because of people’s focus on the Surges as being alive, this excess Investiture can attain the ability to remain sapient after being separated from its Physical form. Locally they think of these things as ghosts, though really they are instantiations of self-aware (well, in this case, barely self-aware) Investiture.

That first sentence in particular reminded me of something relevant to all this, Shallan's illusions. Read this quote from the end of Oathbringer when Shallan is battling with Amaram's forces:

Quote

She’d made thousands of illusions. Each one … each one was her. A portion of her mind. A portion of her soul.

Quote

Questioner:

Shallan's personas. How would they be viewed in the Spiritual Realm? Would they be an individual? Or would they be seen as being slightly separate?

Brandon Sanderson:

They would be seen as an individual.

While obviously Shallan isn't creating Cognitive Shadows, it seems like she's imprinting on excess investiture, creating Cognitive entities that do not have expanded souls and thus disappear.

The sapient nature of these screams is even displayed in Oathbringer. Read this quote from one of these voices at the end of Oathbringer:

Quote

He closed his eyes, breathing out, listening to a sudden stillness. And within it a simple, quiet voice. A woman’s voice, so familiar to him. I forgive you.

Looking back, we've seen communication from cognitive entities before, and it was facilitated through Spiritual Connection, just as Nale says. Read the below quote from Secret History:

Quote

He fell into step beside Spook, who practically stumbled along. One foot after the other, barely moving. “Keep moving,” Kelsier encouraged. He could feel this man’s pain, his anguish and confusion. His faith battered. And somehow, through Connection, Kelsier could talk to him as he’d not been able to do to others.

Conclusion

This answer seems pretty intuitive to me and seems in line with the mechanics we know about Cognitive Shadows. I have some more ideas that are a little less well supported on this topic but I think I'll leave it off here; I don't want to taint the pretty solid nature of this post with crackpot. Let me know what you guys think!

Edited September 17, 2018 by Blightsong

[jefftucker0525]

Ok, just wanna make sure I understand what ur saying. The heralds r haunted by the cognitive aspects of everyone/thing they've killed?

And also, where does the Investiture come from that is creating cognitive aspects coming from? In Kelsiers case we know, but he was a full blown cognitive shadow. Most of the people Szeth killed weren't Invested at all. Unless constant exposure to Stormlight is enough, which I have no idea if it is. 

Solid theory tho, clearly well thought out. 

[Blightsong he/him]

4 minutes ago, jefftucker0525 said:

Ok, just wanna make sure I understand what ur saying. The heralds r haunted by the cognitive aspects of everyone/thing they've killed?

And also, where does the Investiture come from that is creating cognitive aspects coming from? In Kelsiers case we know, but he was a full blown cognitive shadow. Most of the people Szeth killed weren't Invested at all. Unless constant exposure to Stormlight is enough, which I have no idea if it is. 

Solid theory tho, clearly well thought out. 

I would assume it is Odium's investiture. His power, and that of the Unamde specifically, seem to be powered by death. Just look at that quote we have about Yelig-nar being followed by the wails of those he consumes. Each instances of these voices appearing seem to involve Odium's direct influence (at leaast through the Unmade), so the Investiture needed would theoretically be there.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Blightsong

[jefftucker0525]

Just now, Blightsong said:

I would assume it is Odium's investiture. His power, and that of the Unamde specifically, seem to be powered by death. Just look at that quote we have about Yelig-nar being followed by the wails of those he consumes.

I don't think Odium would willingly Invest that much into the entire human population of Roshar, it would weaken him more. And we know he's kind of against Investing in a planet, he just got stuck on Roshar. We know it takes a significant amount of Investiture to create a CS and for Odium to have granted enough Investiture to every single being any Herald or Szeth killed seems pretty unlikely

[Blightsong he/him]

Just now, jefftucker0525 said:

I don't think Odium would willingly Invest that much into the entire human population of Roshar, it would weaken him more. And we know he's kind of against Investing in a planet, he just got stuck on Roshar. We know it takes a significant amount of Investiture to create a CS and for Odium to have granted enough Investiture to every single being any Herald or Szeth killed seems pretty unlikely

I updated my response since you saw it I think, but I've also never made the assertion that this happens to every person on Roshar.

[Calderis he/him]

My take is definitely different here. I don't believe it's Cognitive Shadows. I think it's connection to the Spiritual corpse that remains

As to the cognition, I actually think this I being filtered through the Cognitive of the person experiencing the screams. 

Szeth's connection to those he kills creates his own torment. Same with Dalinar. 

In order to reach the point that Dalinar could think Evi would be capable of forgiving him, he had to both remember, and stop running from, the fact that he killed her. 

I don't think it's Cognitive Shadows. Just Spiritual echoes. 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Calderis

[jefftucker0525]

1 hour ago, Blightsong said:

I updated my response since you saw it I think, but I've also never made the assertion that this happens to every person on Roshar.

I know u didn't, kind of made an assumption that, with how many people are turned into screaming disembodied voices, it would have had to of been a broad canvas as opposed to individual hits. 

[Thurin he/him]

There is one difference you haven't discussed. Szeth killed ordinary people (never mind that it were monarchs), but the Heralds mainly killed voidbringers. The people killed by Szeth are really dead, but the voidbringers killed by the Heralds keep returning to Braize.

I'm not sure what this would mean for your theory though, but it's something to consider.

[Blightsong he/him]

1 hour ago, Thurin said:

There is one difference you haven't discussed. Szeth killed ordinary people (never mind that it were monarchs), but the Heralds mainly killed voidbringers. The people killed by Szeth are really dead, but the voidbringers killed by the Heralds keep returning to Braize.

I'm not sure what this would mean for your theory though, but it's something to consider.

I feel like this point actually backs up my notion that these aren't just spiritual echoes as @Calderis expects. We know that regular Shardblades don't kill the Fused as implied in this WoB:

Quote

Questioner:

My question is not really a question, it's more of a theory. How Odium keeps the Fused around is more if he has them tied to his essence, so it's like he's essentially fishing them out of the Spiritual Realm and since their minds are left behind in the Cognitive Realm and their minds are *inaudible* damaged, because their spirits are separated and it just pulls them back.

I'm 100% convinced Nightblood did kill the thunderclast, because Nightblood consumes all investiture, that's something I asked you back at Barnes and Noble a couple years ago, during Christmas and you said your soul is investiture. So my thought is, that thunderclast isn't coming back any time soon.

Brandon Sanderson:

You are correct on that one.

Questioner:

When I saw that, my thought was, "Yep, It's dead." Other people were like, "I don't know, will it come back?" Nope.

Brandon Sanderson:

I'll tell you this. They have not run into something like this before, and there will be ramifications of what happened there.

Questioner:

That is fun to know.

Brandon Sanderson:

If you are used to death having no consequence, and suddenly your friend vanishes forever...

Questioner:

Yeah I, know I already thought of that. They're going to fight over Nightblood.

Brandon Sanderson:

Mmm.

And that some of these voices are almost definitely fused/CS (emphasis mine):

Quote

Dalinar took a chug, then handed the bottle back to Ahu. “How are the voices?” “Soft, today. They chant about ripping me apart.

These voices seem to be more lucid and coherent, which makes sense. My guess is that a Connection is formed between the Heralds and these fused just like the Connection going on with the other voices, it's just a different type of CS on the other end.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Blightsong

[Master Silver]

Do we know when the unmade first made their appearance? I know that the Radiants have experience fighting them, but did the heralds? I think one of the unmade says, "First we were made, then unmade." Could it be that these spren originally went with the Heralds, but when the Heralds broke their bond somehow Odium was able to unmake their spren (which caused them to go insane). Remember how Kalidin becomes rubbish with the spear when he breaks his oath, and he is like could all of my skill have just been Syl. What if the same is true of the Heralds. Jezrin is a beast on the battle field because of the spren of courage and leadership which after he breaks his oath becomes the Thrill. Just a thought. Sorry if I dug up a really old thread. 

[NameIess]

10 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

Do we know when the unmade first made their appearance? I know that the Radiants have experience fighting them, but did the heralds? I think one of the unmade says, "First we were made, then unmade." Could it be that these spren originally went with the Heralds, but when the Heralds broke their bond somehow Odium was able to unmake their spren (which caused them to go insane). Remember how Kalidin becomes rubbish with the spear when he breaks his oath, and he is like could all of my skill have just been Syl. What if the same is true of the Heralds. Jezrin is a beast on the battle field because of the spren of courage and leadership which after he breaks his oath becomes the Thrill. Just a thought. Sorry if I dug up a really old thread. 

The Unmade were traditionally a part of the desolations, and the heralds were beasts on the battlefield because their Honorblades connected them to Honor, giving them infinite stormlight.

[Master Silver]

Well if they were always a part of the Desolations, then that shoots my theory of them being the spren of the heralds. I know others have said that they were likely Odium's response to the heralds. Armoran getting possessed by one who seemed like a field general is evidence enough of that. What were they before they were unmade though, that is the question. And if instead of capturing them, like was done with the Thrill, people bonded them, would they become the made again and would that weaken Odium's power. Odium seems to get stronger every Desolation, so somehow that cycle needs to be broken. No clue how though.

[Eternal Khol he/him]

 

On 9/16/2018 at 2:30 PM, Blightsong said:

While obviously Shallan isn't creating Cognitive Shadows, it seems like she's imprinting on excess investiture, creating Cognitive entities that do not have expanded souls and thus disappear.

i dont think this is it at all.

to make a lightweaving she usually has to have Connection along with a mental picture of the thing she is creating.

i think shes just Connecting to all those different peoples and herself s spirtweb and using them as a "guide" to make the lightweaving.

that way. in a sense, every illusion IS a part of her and her soul, because even though not all of the Illusions are Shallan, they are a part of her because those Connections are part of her soul

Edited May 11, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Fezzik]

Just wanted to quote Way of Kings here, talking about Shallan; "when she took a memory, she snipped off a bud of their soul, so she could later cultivate it on the page."