Kaladin's relationship

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Pffft, Leinton I think you just made my night with that. Hahaha.

[DeployParachute]

You are completely wrong there. That means anyone who is offended deserves power. That is way out of line. Plenty of people LIKE being offended way too much. In fact, the like it exactly BECAUSE they can use it as an excuse to claim power and bully others.

Truth can hurt. Do you think everyone should tiptoe around someone who is stuck in denial because it hurts them?

IT matters if someone does something wrong. Its not wrong just because someone's feelings got hurt.

 

THIS!

 

Also, I must have missed the post or thread where Renarin's autism is discussed.  Can someone point me in that direction I'd be interested to read.  Having a wife who works with autistic children and having many discussions with her on the subject, based on what I have learned from her, Renarin would barely even be on the spectrum, if at all.  I can't identify any autistic tendencies in his character that I would classify as impactful to his day to day functioning, and he doesn't strike me as having difficulties empathizing and emotionally connecting to people, especially his family.  To me, the biggest impact to his day to day are his episdoes/fits/seizures that at this point we know very little details about.  But hey, I'm certainly not claiming to be an expert, and I fully expect some fellow fans to post details that I may have missed concerning Renarin.

 

Side note, if anyone is interested in a good documentary on the topic and has Netflix, you should check out "A Mother's Courage: Talking Back to Autism".  It is pretty fantastic and highly educational.  Inspirational even.

Edited May 10, 2014 by DeployParachute

[signspace13 he/him]

...Renarin would barely even be on the spectrum, if at all.  I can't identify any autistic tendencies in his character that I would classify as impactful to his day to day functioning, and he doesn't strike me as having difficulties empathizing and emotionally connecting to people, especially his family...

 

hard to admit but I am on the autistic spectrum in a very similar place to Renarin, it really doesn't effect my day to day dealings with poeple other than making me a typical introvert. but it does manifest in other ways, ways that aren't exactly obvious unless you know me very well, things like obsessive behavior and fidgeting with objects and repeating sentences after I say them.

 

From my perceptive I didn't pick Renarin as anything but an introvert but after hearing the WoB from Brandon that he has autism but it doesn't even reach the aspergers level, exactly how mine was explained to me. So yes I believe the idea that he has minor autism.

 

Is it an excuse for all behavior, of course not but I think it is enough to say he doesn't think the same way about certain things to other poeple, such as his family situation , he could see it completely differently to us, or his autism could manifest elsewhere, we don't know yet, and until we see from his view point( which I think will be very interesting to read as i remember Brandon saying in writing excuses that he loved the way another author wrote aspergers characters from a different pov to others) we don't know but I do believe he has autism at a very minor level

[Aleksiel]

THIS!

 

Also, I must have missed the post or thread where Renarin's autism is discussed.  Can someone point me in that direction I'd be interested to read.  Having a wife who works with autistic children and having many discussions with her on the subject, based on what I have learned from her, Renarin would barely even be on the spectrum, if at all.  I can't identify any autistic tendencies in his character that I would classify as impactful to his day to day functioning, and he doesn't strike me as having difficulties empathizing and emotionally connecting to people, especially his family.  To me, the biggest impact to his day to day are his episdoes/fits/seizures that at this point we know very little details about.  But hey, I'm certainly not claiming to be an expert, and I fully expect some fellow fans to post details that I may have missed concerning Renarin.

 

Side note, if anyone is interested in a good documentary on the topic and has Netflix, you should check out "A Mother's Courage: Talking Back to Autism".  It is pretty fantastic and highly educational.  Inspirational even.

 Dalinar described Renarin's joy to see him after the Tower like one of the rare occasions he expressed visibly strong emotions, I don't know if it's evidence of the emotional detachment you mention. This is the first thread on topic that comes to my mind. This is another thread discussing Renarin along with other characters.

[StormingStorm he/him]

Not Shallan or so I hope. Having the main male character hook up with the main female character is just too much of a cliche. However, I do see something happening between the two as Kaladin is obviously interested. I hope they will both realise there are better suited as friends. I also hope that "something" will not ruined Kaladin and Adolin's new friendship as these two are in dire need of a friend. Anyway, I am a sucker for the Shallodin as I think these two are really cute together. Unlike many people, I do think Shallan is being pretty much herself with Adolin letting her curiosity and sharp tongue get the better of her and surprisingly, it worked. I guess Adolin was tired of telling the same old boring stories over and over again.

 

For Kaladin, I just don't know who could be his love interest. I was thinking maybe Laral or some other character with haven't met yet. Not Jasnah though. I think Jasnah will remain Jasnah, ie single. Not every character needs to be in a relationship although I agree that Kaladin should definitely be in one.

i wouldn't mind personally if brandon did decide to that. I just came out of a couple of books where the main characters "love" dies a horrible heart wrenching death or the "lover" is the person who killed her/his father. I'm just whooping that maybe Kaladin will hook up with Shallan just cause she's awesome. 

 

One thing I am worried about is the repeat occurrence of Shallan picking Adolin because of the ferocity in Kaladin like what happened with Dalinar Kohlin And Nivarni when they were younger of course. 

[DeployParachute]

hard to admit but I am on the autistic spectrum in a very similar place to Renarin, it really doesn't effect my day to day dealings with poeple other than making me a typical introvert. but it does manifest in other ways, ways that aren't exactly obvious unless you know me very well, things like obsessive behavior and fidgeting with objects and repeating sentences after I say them.

 

From my perceptive I didn't pick Renarin as anything but an introvert but after hearing the WoB from Brandon that he has autism but it doesn't even reach the aspergers level, exactly how mine was explained to me. So yes I believe the idea that he has minor autism.

 

Is it an excuse for all behavior, of course not but I think it is enough to say he doesn't think the same way about certain things to other poeple, such as his family situation , he could see it completely differently to us, or his autism could manifest elsewhere, we don't know yet, and until we see from his view point( which I think will be very interesting to read as i remember Brandon saying in writing excuses that he loved the way another author wrote aspergers characters from a different pov to others) we don't know but I do believe he has autism at a very minor level

 

Thanks for the sharing and the different perspective.  Also, did not know there was a WoB on the subject, that is very interesting

 

 Dalinar described Renarin's joy to see him after the Tower like one of the rare occasions he expressed visibly strong emotions, I don't know if it's evidence of the emotional detachment you mention. This is the first thread on topic that comes to my mind. This is another thread discussing Renarin along with other characters.

 

Thank you for the links.

[kaellok he/him]

Maybe not the best time or place to mention this, but certainly not the worst, so I'll go ahead!  My longest-running favorite author Elizabeth Moon (she became a favorite in my teens, and remains a Top 6 favorite still today) has an autistic son, and wrote an absolutely fantastic novel inspired partially by him called The Speed of Dark.  It's a near-future sci-fi light type of novel, with the primary viewpoint of someone on the autism spectrum.  It was really a very good read, and with all of the discussion re: Renarin, I was reminded of it. 

 

Also, out of all of the serious contenders for a Kaladin pairing, I favor Jasnah the most at this point.  I think that one of the less-likely-at-this-point-in-time-but-maybe-in-the-future choices, like Laral or that one horse-trainer whose name I can never remember, could also be very good.  Really, though, anyone but Shallan.  I think Shaladin would be a good platonic relationship, like brother/sister.  The similarities between Tien and Shallan are pretty strong, and the same with Kaladin and Heleran, so I think that would be interesting to explore and see more of.

[signspace13 he/him]

Also, out of all of the serious contenders for a Kaladin pairing, I favor Jasnah the most at this point.  I think that one of the less-likely-at-this-point-in-time-but-maybe-in-the-future choices, like Laral or that one horse-trainer whose name I can never remember, could also be very good.  Really, though, anyone but Shallan.  I think Shaladin would be a good platonic relationship, like brother/sister.  The similarities between Tien and Shallan are pretty strong, and the same with Kaladin and Heleran, so I think that would be interesting to explore and see more of.

 

I think Jasnah is likely to remain single she strikes me as either Asexual or possibly homosexual, she certainly doesn't seem to show any interest in men. I also am not against the idea of a sibling like relationship between Kaladin and Shallan, I find it unlikely that Shallan's relationship with Adolin will continue to much longer, it really is cute but I don't know if it is in for the long haul, and I don't think we see enough relationships fail in this genre, they always have the 'work out against all odds appeal' and we need some new stuff. 

 

But I also would like a relationship for Kal and at the moment Shallan is the best bet for they are at least infatuated with each other. I would love to learn more about Laral as well I didn't really like her that much as a child, I mean she always insisted that Kaladin go off to war to win a shardblade just so she didn't have to marry him as a darkeyes and she seemed mad at him after he chose to definitely be a surgeon, not that they interacted much after that. Am I the only one that finds that kind of self centered? but hey she was only a kid so who am I to judge.

 

And we know so little about the horse trainer, I can't imagine she would be needed at Urithuru so maybe she took a horse to Kholinar and Kal will see her their LOL that would be an entertaining reunion. 

[theravenchilde she/her]

Kaldin/Shallan/Adolin/Renarin sedoretu. We get all the relationships, no incest, and everyone is placated.

 

(a sedoretu is a poly marriage from an Ursula K Le Guin novel, in which two pairs of people (two each from a class division called a moiety, either Morning or Evening) get married. You can have sex with the the other couple, but not with your partner from the same moiety (basically a sibling relationship. Adolin and Renarin would be from the same moiety, so they can't do the do, but they can with either Shallan or with Kaladin. I believe orgies are also taboo, so that's not an issue here either. So now we get both het ships and homo ones and everyone is happy).

[WitSpren he/him]

I think Jasnah is likely to remain single she strikes me as either Asexual or possibly homosexual, she certainly doesn't seem to show any interest in men.

Not sure if I agree with you on this, as I took Jasna as a Driven woman since her fathers death.    That has very much dominated her life for the last 6 years.     But when she talks to Shallan about the arranged marriage to Adolin, she seemed like she was suprised that Shallan did not feel that marriage should "Limit" her life.     That implies to me that Jasna considered her Chosen Task to be more important than marriage, not that marriage was in itself undesirable, and her apparent interest in the subject leads me to think that if the opportunity emerged, she might be interested.

[MadMartigan]

Well, based off WoR, Shallan.  Nothing "cliche" about main characters getting together.  People use 'cliche' so much, the very word itself has become a cliche.  

 

You could argue that EVERY romantic relationship is a cliche.  Dalinar/Navani being the biggest.  

 

But enough on that.  I liked their interactions and Shallan was flustered when she said she couldn't even describe what Kaladin was as a way to say to herself that he was no better than Adolin, then proceeds to go on it.

 

I've already spent the time on the why in the Shallan thread, so I don't need to get into that again.  Suffice to say, Kaladin's best match so far is Shallan.

 

And if not her...

 

Hopefully BS reintroduces Tarah, but we've no idea if she's still living, if she's married, or if she were merely a female friend.

 

Barring that, give the poor sucker a kickass female Radiant who's a warrior.  A warrior who's also a practical joker, suffer no BS type.  Almost like an Aviendha, only with a funny bone in her body.  Dude needs someone to make him laugh and smile and start ridding him of his doom and gloom for a change.

 

Which is why I've settled on Shallan for the meantime. 

 

In any event, keep him away from Jasnah.  He might kill himself if he's around her too long.

 

 

Good point Kobold King. I vote Eshonai/Adolin. What would that be, Eshonadolin? Seems too long. Hmm...

 

You know, this would actually be really interesting.  I mean, really interesting. Time for some split relationships with the Parshendi and Alethi! There are some similarities to this pairing.  You want more non-cliche?  Bridge the gap between the two people.  But...Adolin would have to deal with her being taller. She is taller, right? That's humor enough as is.  He'd have to wear shardplate to dance with Eshonai.  Or, Eshonai would lead. 

 

It'd be Esholin by the by. 

 

 

 

I find it... boring and obvious, to tell the truth. I didn't see enough set up within them as individuals to make the pairing intriguing and the fact that they seem to be walking lock-step through every really overdone kind of romance plot thing is... vaguely annoyng more than it is interesting. I have hope that this ship will end up in a subversion of some sort actually, because that would redeem this plot for me.

 

On the flip side, for those that sport Shallan/Adolin, I'm always thoroughly confused as to how people don't find that dynamic just as cliched and overused as main characters getting together.

 

Dalinar/Navani are....boring as well to tell the truth.  

 

I'm not sure you're going to avoid romantic relationships used unless you pair Adolin/Kaladin/Shallan with entirely different characters not even introduced yet or ones that have yet to get much screen time.

 

I mean, Adolin and Shallan is the typical (hot, destitute girl with a dark past meets super hot princeling in arranged marriage and bump them uglies faster than you can say babies).

 

That's my thought anyway.  

Edited June 12, 2014 by MadMartigan

[Kogiopsis she/her]

You could argue that EVERY romantic relationship is a cliche.  Dalinar/Navani being the biggest.  

 

Wait, what?  50-something engineer and widow aggressively seducing her dead husband's brother is a cliche now?  Where else can I find this plotline in media, because I am ALL FOR IT and would love to read more.

[maxal she/her]

...

 

Alright. Since you are the one bringing down the subject of clichés in relationship, let's talk about cliches in relationships. One of your arguments for Shalladin is you believe this relationship to be less cliché than others presented in the story so far. I, for one, strongly disagree with this premise.

 

Kaladin is a rough, dark, somber, moody, loner guy. He talks in grumps. He arbors a low keep haircut and a slave tattoo marking as the ultimate bad boy. Shallan is the pretty rich girl (Yes her family was destitute, but the fact remains she was raised in a world of privileges. Even Shallan acknowledges this as she walks in the darkeye section of camp and she uses a much too high mark to pay for fruits). She is young, innocent, but mouthy. She meets up with grumpy bad boy and she hates him automatically. They get of on bad terms. They quarrel, they bicker and it does not stop. Eventually, they end up in a bad situation that makes the worst of them come out. They sort of bond and they discover they do not really hate each other. If fact, they may even like each other.

 

Does this scenario sounds familiar?

 

In fact it is. Replace Kaladin with Micheal Touglas and Shallan with Kathleen Turner and you've got Romancing the Stone....................... OK, I understand you probably were not born yet when the movie came out but each time I read the chasm scene I just cannot help but think "Romancing the Stone, Romancing the Stone"... And you know, stormlight, valuable stone, chasm, cavern...... quite the same, really.

 

Kaladin and Shallan is such a cliché story I bet we could find many other movies to fit with it. I agree my example is slightly outdated, but it is the first that came to mind. I'll get you others once I have time to google a little. Prince of Persia as similitude to Shallan and Kaladin.

 

Also, you think Shallan and Adolin is the worst possible cliché and I disagree. They starts of as a cliché, yes you are entirely right about that. Handsome young badass fighter prince (he is blond, bleu eyed, he has a shinny armor and a white horse, you can't get more cliche than *that*) meets pretty destitute girl with an attitude. I agree, this is very cliché and it has been done over and over again. However, the second Shallan becomes a Radiant and the second Adolin kills Sadeas, the story moves away from the cliché. In fact, we could pretty much say the cliché stops when Sureblood dies (for me the death of Sureblood indicates the beginning of the fall from grace for Adolin). The handsome prince is now a murderer. He will most likely get trialed and punished for it. He'll be a renegade and a rebel while the pretty girl becomes a powerful Radiant, a leader of nations that stands much higher than him. I have yet to think of any prince/princess story where the prince drops from grace due to his own actions (murder). If you have an example of such story, please come forward with it.

 

Therefore, this is why I believe Shallan/Kaladin is more cliché than Shallan/Adolin.

 

As for Dalinar/Navani, I fail to see the cliche in that story. Alright the love triangle between brothers is a cliche, but the remaining of the story is quite original or at least it is not one that was overly done.

 

Edit: typos

Edited June 13, 2014 by maxal

[Aleksiel]

Kaladin and Shallan is such a cliche story I bet we could find many other movies to fit with it. I agree my example is slightly outdated, but it is the first that came to mind. I'll get you others once I have time to google a little. Prince of Persia as similitude to Shallan and Kaladin as well and I promise I will find you others.

 

The first that comes to my mind is 'It's a boy girl thing'. It's about two teenage neighbors, who go to the same school and basically hate each other. He's an athlete, she's a nerd. They get in a verbal fight infornt of an ancient statue and the next morning they've switched bodies. Then they have more sassy verbal fights. After going a few days in the other's shoes, they begin to understand one another better, find similarities and the curse wears off when they are finally able to get along. They have a romance after, because they've developed feelings for each other during the extraordinary experience. 

 

Putting characters (who originally couldn't stand each other) thorough something unusual and forcing them to cooperate in order to go back with their lives, only to have them fall inlove in the end is far from being unheard of, if not a cliche scenario. 

Edited June 12, 2014 by Aleksiel

[maxal she/her]

The first that comes to my mind is 'It's a boy girl thing'. It's about two teenage neighbors, who go to the same school and basically hate each other. He's an athlete, she's a nerd. They get in a verbal fight infornt of an ancient statue and the next morning they've switched bodies. Then they have more sassy verbal fights. After going a few days in the other's shoes, they begin to understand one another better, find similarities and the curse wears off when they are finally able to get along. They have a romance after, because they've developed feelings for each other during the extraordinary experience. 

 

Putting characters (who originally couldn't stand each other) thorough something unusual and forcing them to cooperate in order to go back with their lives, only to have them fall inlove in the end is far from being unheard of, if not a cliche scenario. 

 

I can think of "Ten Things I Hate About you", an old nineties movie with Julia Stiles and Heath Ledger where the mouthy girl from a good family gets "fixed" with the school resident bad boy from a poor family. They fight a lot in the beginning until they madly fall in love with each other.... Heath Ledger really did have the scruffy Kaladin look in that movie or in general

 

EDIT: Dirty Dancing.... Good girl from a good family with a rebellious streak learns to dance in an outlawed club with the grumpy, but extremely good dancer.... At first, she does it as a favor to help another girl have illegal abortion. She and the bad boy dancer bicker a lot in the beginning, but oh they fall in love and there is this lake scene.....

 

Gee, I used to watch that movie every rainy Saturday when I was a teenager along with my friends............

 

Clueless. Rich mouthy girl who spend half the movie bickering with her moody, dark half-brother by alliance until she discover she really is in love with him! In the mean time, she has this pseudo-love story with the perfect Adolin-like guy (who turns out being gay, but that's beyond the point).

 

OK *cough* Twilight? Good girl falls in love with big bad vampire than falls in love with big bad werewolf..................

 

Amerian Pie: The Band camp....... OK that one was awful, but it did have the nice girl falls in love with the bad boy. Bickering and stuff. Hate/love and finally love. Cliche.

 

How about Titanic??????? High ranked girl unhappy about her arranger weeding, mouthy and a little rebellious falls in love with poor grumpy guy? They run about in freezing water and fall madly in love????

 

GREASE! How did I not think of Grease before?

 

Another 90s movie (I know you get how old I am): Cruel Intentions.

 

Cry Baby. An 80s classic.

Edited June 14, 2014 by FeatherWriter
Don't double post

[kaellok he/him]

I think that MadMartigan is confusing "cliché" and "trope."

 

A cliché is some element of an artistic work overused to the point that much, or all, of its original meaning is lost.

 

A trope is a literary device or convention that authors can rely on the audience to be familiar with.  Certain elements are present that the audience expects to see, while still retaining the freedom to change and alter them so that they seem fresh again.  Case in point, maxal's post explains how Sanderson has twisted the prototypical trope that MadMartigan identified as cliché.

[maxal she/her]

I think that MadMartigan is confusing "cliché" and "trope."

 

A cliché is some element of an artistic work overused to the point that much, or all, of its original meaning is lost.

 

A trope is a literary device or convention that authors can rely on the audience to be familiar with.  Certain elements are present that the audience expects to see, while still retaining the freedom to change and alter them so that they seem fresh again.  Case in point, maxal's post explains how Sanderson has twisted the prototypical trope that MadMartigan identified as cliché.

 

Interesting. I did not identify the difference between "cliche" and "trope". We could have fun trying to bring about all "clichés" and "tropes" through SA.

[MadMartigan]

I know perfectly well what a cliche is and what a trope is thank you very much.

 

And I know Romancing the Stone as well thank you very much.  Seen both it and its sequel a handful of times actually because I like them so much.

 

And I never said Kaladin/Shallan wasn't a cliche or an overused trope.  I said you'd have to pick a minor character to pair with Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin to avoid ANY cliches.

 

Which is why it is mind-numbingly silly to say one is a cliche while the other isn't.  They all other.  Outside of crack pairing, everything's been done to death.

 

Adding spice to it all and writing it well is all that matters.

 

You say BS changed Adolin/Shallan dynamic.  No.  He didn't change their dynamic he merely changed the circumstances the characters now find themselves.

 

Nothing preventing the same from happening to Shallan/Kaladin.

 

You're getting way too wrapped up in the shipping game of what you want.  I'm approaching it more from a theory, textual basis and on that front, either relationship or none at all, has an equal chance of happening because...

 

The ride is nowhere close to be finished. 

 

 

And you could say Adolin is the HS QB while Shallan is the slightly nerdy chick, who gets a make over (radiant powers) and becomes head of the cheerleading squad.

 

We can play this game all day long.

 

I'm just pointing out the absurdity of calling anything in fiction a cliche.  Everything is.  Comes from stories having been around, written or verbal, since humans developed the art of communication.

Edited June 13, 2014 by MadMartigan

[DeployParachute]

Dirty Dancing.... Good girl from a good family with a rebellious streak learns to dance in an outlawed club with the grumpy, but extremely good dancer.... At first, she does it as a favor to help another girl have illegal abortion. She and the bad boy dancer bicker a lot in the beginning, but oh they fall in love and there is this lake scene.....

 

Gee, I used to watch that movie every rainy Saturday when I was a teenager along with my friends............

 

Clueless. Rich mouthy girl who spend half the movie bickering with her moody, dark half-brother by alliance until she discover she really is in love with him! In the mean time, she has this pseudo-love story with the perfect Adolin-like guy (who turns out being gay, but that's beyond the point).

 

OK *cough* Twilight? Good girl falls in love with big bad vampire than falls in love with big bad werewolf..................

 

Amerian Pie: The Band camp....... OK that one was awful, but it did have the nice girl falls in love with the bad boy. Bickering and stuff. Hate/love and finally love. Cliche.

 

How about Titanic??????? High ranked girl unhappy about her arranger weeding, mouthy and a little rebellious falls in love with poor grumpy guy? They run about in freezing water and fall madly in love????

 

GREASE! How did I not think of Grease before?

 

Another 90s movie (I know you get how old I am): Cruel Intentions.

 

Cry Baby. An 80s classic.

 

Come now, American Pie had nothing to do with a bad boy.  If anything, it was about a true nerd, who is trying desperately to be the cool bad boy, but is shown by the nerd girl that he is truly a nerd after all.  Jim certainly never did anything "moody" or "bad boy" worthy.  He was a comic relief character

 

And Titanic?  You thought Jack was grumpy and moody? Ha.  Even when they were facing down certain doom, he was the most positive mutha on that ship.  His passion and zest for life is what woke Rose up and saved her from what would otherwise been a life complete devoid of laughter, joy, adventure, and passion.  Unless we're switching the roles around and Shallan is supposed to be Jack?  Does that mean she gets to draw a nude of Kaladin wearing the Heart of the Ocean?

 

And Grease.  Two teens meet randomly for the summer, and not being bound by any of their existing social constructs fall in love with each other and have the greatest summer of their lives.  Once they are back in school, though, the bad boy must protect his image, and comes off as an chull.  Not quite the same as Kaladin and Shallan's interactions where they start off instantly disliking each other (not using hate...it is too strong).

 

 

Anyway, I think the stance I'm going to take is that any possible love story or trope that you can conceive of has been done somehow, some way before.  The "Eww..that's just too cliche and trope-y" reasoning for shooting down someone else's shipping arguments probably should be dropped by all shippers, as it can be easily pointed at any ship and fired successfully.

[Aleksiel]

I know perfectly well what a cliche is and what a trope is thank you very much.

 

And I know Romancing the Stone as well thank you very much.  Seen both it and its sequel a handful of times actually because I like them so much.

 

And I never said Kaladin/Shallan wasn't a cliche or an overused trope.  I said you'd have to pick a minor character to pair with Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin to avoid ANY cliches.

 

Which is why it is mind-numbingly silly to say one is a cliche while the other isn't.  They all other.  Outside of crack pairing, everything's been done to death.

 

Adding spice to it all and writing it well is all that matters.

 

You say BS changed Adolin/Shallan dynamic.  No.  He didn't change their dynamic he merely changed the circumstances the characters now find themselves.

 

Nothing preventing the same from happening to Shallan/Kaladin.

 

You're getting way too wrapped up in the shipping game of what you want.  I'm approaching it more from a theory, textual basis and on that front, either relationship or none at all, has an equal chance of happening because...

 

The ride is nowhere close to be finished. 

 

 

And you could say Adolin is the HS QB while Shallan is the slightly nerdy chick, who gets a make over (radiant powers) and becomes head of the cheerleading squad.

 

We can play this game all day long.

 

I'm just pointing out the absurdity of calling anything in fiction a cliche.  Everything is.  Comes from stories having been around, written or verbal, since humans developed the art of communication.

 

 

Of course not everything is a cliche, you are exaggerating now. Like Kogiopsis asked, how come you consider Navani and Dalinar one?

 

 

Wait, what?  50-something engineer and widow aggressively seducing her dead husband's brother is a cliche now?  Where else can I find this plotline in media, because I am ALL FOR IT and would love to read more.

 

I can't think of a movie or a book where a widowed middle-aged woman seduces her dead husband's brother.

 

Anyway, people are entitled to (dis)like a ship for whatever reason. 

 

Arguing against Shadolin (and any other ship) isn't helping support Shaladin. It's true that as far as textual evidence goes, those are the two likeliest pairings, but not just one of them, so your ship isn't the only one textually supported. What is more, a ship doesn't necessarily have to be based on any textual evidence at all, only to appeal to the shipper. Even after a ship becomes canon, anyone can still ship a different pairing just because they like it. 

 

It's ok to ship any couple you want, and for me it's fun to read the reasons behind each ship. Shipping isn't an argument to be won, nor is there a right ship that automatically cancels all others. 

Edited June 13, 2014 by Aleksiel

[MadMartigan]

 

 

Like Kogiopsis asked, how come you consider Navani and Dalinar one?

 

Thought that was was obvious.  Girl attracted to two friends, picks the safe choice.  Has babies with him.  That man dies, and she eventually gets on the other man she was attracted to, but scared her with his intensity.  Very generic, but cliches built in.  It's like the weird love triangle thing in the Pearl Harbor movie only a little more complex. Like I said, most things start off as a cliche.  It's up to the writer to provide new angles and make old cliches, new and refreshing. 

 

And my point is that if you look at everything in literature, film, etc, you ARE going to see cliches everywhere.  It's a fact of life considering how long we've been telling stories.  The same generally story has been told ad-nausea for centuries.  You just get subtle changes that flip things around on occasion. 

 

All I'm doing is pointing out the silliness of calling Kaladin/Shallan a cliche, but ignoring the fact that Adolin/Shallan is just as much as cliche (and in BS's writing it is also a trope he's used twice in other books....so there's that as well.)

 

You all are arguing cliches, when it really just comes down to personal preference for you. You prefer the Adolin/Shallan cliche dynamic.  From what I've read and others have read, we prefer the Kal/Shall cliche dynaimc.  It's all about perspective.  I imagine many hate both of the potential relationships.

 

That's my point.

 

 

 

Arguing against Shadolin (and any other ship) isn't helping support Shaladin. It's true that as far as textual evidence goes, those are the two likeliest pairings, but not just one of them, so your ship isn't the only one textually supported.

 

Dont' direct that just at me.  Plenty of folks on the other side of the fence argue away their being any textual evidence / arguing against Shallan/Kaladin ins't supporting Shadolin either.

 

Not sure why I'm being singled out.  Plenty in this thread were far more difficult.

[maxal she/her]

Come now, American Pie had nothing to do with a bad boy.  If anything, it was about a true nerd, who is trying desperately to be the cool bad boy, but is shown by the nerd girl that he is truly a nerd after all.  Jim certainly never did anything "moody" or "bad boy" worthy.  He was a comic relief character

 

No no no I did not mean the original movie, but the cheap third or fourth sequel made for television only... The one were Stifler's younger brother gets send to band camp where he meets this nice elite girl from a rich family..... It was extremely crappy and I recalled watching it on December 26th on the Music Network :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:

 

 

And Grease.  Two teens meet randomly for the summer, and not being bound by any of their existing social constructs fall in love with each other and have the greatest summer of their lives.  Once they are back in school, though, the bad boy must protect his image, and comes off as an chull.  Not quite the same as Kaladin and Shallan's interactions where they start off instantly disliking each other (not using hate...it is too strong).

 

True enough. I chose it for the "good girl falls for the bad boy" part of the story.

 

Hey no cliche is perfect. I was simply trying to underline how I thought the Shallan/Kaladin mirrored many existing relationships. I for one, do not think it is overly original so I would not use that as an argument to ship for this boat. One person may prefer that relationship for entirely many reasons, but since the topic of "cliche" was raised I wanted to point out a few examples.

 

 

...

 

MadMartigan, I am sorry but your posts are really coming out as aggressive. I don't know if it is your intention or not, but I am having a hard time reading you. You are the one who mention how you think one pairing is more cliche than the other. I disagree and I brought examples to support my argumentation. You don't like them, that is entirely up to you, but no need to jump on me like a mad chasmfield.

 

Sentences such as

 

"And I know Romancing the Stone as well thank you very much.  Seen both it and its sequel a handful of times actually because I like them so much."

 

Are really offending.

 

In my previous post, I was merely excusing myself for bringing about such an old example. You are the one who mentioned being in college recently, so I figured you may not have seen an old early 80s movie.

 

You answer to kaellok was also offending, I found.

 

If you want to know my opinion, you are the one who is investing itself in one shipping. You are so set on hating one shipping you fail to see the arguments in its favor. You also fail to bring about new argumentation to support your claim. All you do if scream how other people's argumentation is bad without any additional support. You were the one who brought up the subject of cliché and instead of discussing calmly like a behaved adult, you just rant on how stupid I was to bring around examples to support my claim. I do not know what you want. If your goal if just to hear people say how great they think Shalladin is, than you are at the wrong place because not all of us agree. However, I believe we have always been able to talk about it in a civilized manner. It would be great if it could continue this way.

 

Peace.

[Aleksiel]

Thought that was was obvious.  Girl attracted to two friends, picks the safe choice.  Has babies with him.  That man dies, and she eventually gets on the other man she was attracted to, but scared her with his intensity.  Very generic, but cliches built in.  It's like the weird love triangle thing in the Pearl Harbor movie only a little more complex. Like I said, most things start off as a cliche.  It's up to the writer to provide new angles and make old cliches, new and refreshing. 

 

And my point is that if you look at everything in literature, film, etc, you ARE going to see cliches everywhere.  It's a fact of life considering how long we've been telling stories.  The same generally story has been told ad-nausea for centuries.  You just get subtle changes that flip things around on occasion. 

 

All I'm doing is pointing out the silliness of calling Kaladin/Shallan a cliche, but ignoring the fact that Adolin/Shallan is just as much as cliche (and in BS's writing it is also a trope he's used twice in other books....so there's that as well.)

 

You all are arguing cliches, when it really just comes down to personal preference for you. You prefer the Adolin/Shallan cliche dynamic.  From what I've read and others have read, we prefer the Kal/Shall cliche dynaimc.  It's all about perspective.  I imagine many hate both of the potential relationships.

 

That's my point.

 

 

Dont' direct that just at me.  Plenty of folks on the other side of the fence argue away their being any textual evidence / arguing against Shallan/Kaladin ins't supporting Shadolin either.

 

Not sure why I'm being singled out.  Plenty in this thread were far more difficult.

 

You say something is a cliche, but can't give examples of the same plot in other works? It was a predictable plot, though.

 

May be you missed a word or two in the paragraph before the last one and I'm not sure what you meant there. You were bashing Shadolin as if that supports Shalladin, which isn't true and also isn't a nice thing to do. May be you didn't mean it so harsh. 

 

Anyway, you are entitled to ship any couple you want, but please be more thoughtful of how you express yourself. We're all fans here

 

 

 

 

I suggest we move on to something more productive and on topic. Why do you (I mean everyone) think Shallan and Adolin will break up? He's quite smitten by her, I can't imagine him ending the relationship. Unless Balat sets on fire some of his clothes.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Aleksiel

[maxal she/her]

I suggest we move on to something more productive and on topic. Why do you (I mean everyone) think Shallan and Adolin will break up? He's quite smitten by her, I can't imagine him ending the relationship. Unless Balat sets on fire some of his clothes.

 

Oh this is an interesting one... I have many scenarios of how this could be played.....

 

Scenario 1: They drift apart. Shallan gets really busy with her new Radianhood, the Ghostblood and the impending arrival of her brothers. Since her family is now safe, she does not feel the same pressure to make it work with Adolin. It is not she wants to break up, but she just, somehow, finds less time to actually date Adolin. Adolin, on his side, after all his failed courtships, somehow half-expects this to happen. He is puzzled. He does not understand what he did wrong this time. He likes her, a lot, but he interprets her lack of time by a lack of interest. He is somewhat in over his head at the moment. Shallan drifting away feels like an additional weight on his shoulder. Thinking Shallan wants to end the relationship, he drifts away on his side, but it saddens him. He does not understand what he feels (dude you're in love), but somehow he manages to convince himself he is doing the right thing. Sadeas murder implication explodes in his face. He crumbles. No more family, no more Shallan. Shallan does not really understand what happens: she never meant for the relationship to end. She is sad, but she moves on. Eventually, she realizes what happened and they somehow get back together........

 

Scenario 2: Adolin gets accused of Sadeas murder. He is forced to surrender his shardblade and he is imprisoned waiting for his trial. He knows he will get banished. Shallan visits. He is distressed. He asks her to come with him in banishment. He claims they can get married in another country and find a place to live. She refuses. She claims Radianhood, Urithiru (and the Ghostblood, but she won't admit it) are more important. She says she cannot drop her work to go with him. He is crushed: his family refuses to defend him and the women he loves refuses to elope with him. He gets send away, alone and heart-broken, not knowing where to go. They may or they may not meet again in the future, but I hope they do

 

Scenario 3: Adolin is crushed by the guilt of having killed Sadeas. Many other things add to his current stress: death of Ryshadium, family being all radiant, family drifting away from him, family to busy to notice he is not feeling right, etc. He gets more impulsive. He gets into fights, brawls or maybe he gets drunk a few times. In the end, he only wants to do the "right" thing and the "right" thing is not to let his actions take down Dalinar. He convinces himself that if he leaves, Dalinar won't suffer consequences. He breaks the bod with his shardblade and he leaves it behind. He manages for Oathbringer to be found in his room so people would know. He goes to see Shallan. He tells her he loves her, but he has to go. Tearful moment. Long kisses. Maybe he gives her his mother's chain as a keep stake. He leaves in the dark of the night. Shallan understand something is amiss and she goes warn Dalinar. Too late. Adolin is gone, no one knows where to, but from the clues he left behind, they puzzles out he murdered Sadeas. They meet again only sometime later in circumstances yet to define.

 

Scenario 4: Shalladin shippers are actually right. As time pass, Shallan infatuation with Adolin wears of. She starts to think she would prefer someone more clever, with more spunk. She keeps thinking of Kaladin now gone to Hearstone. She drifts away from Adolin and at some point, she break up. They pretend it is mutual, but Adolin is devastated. He claims in front of his family it is just another one of his relationship. His family does not think much of it as it happens all the time, but inside Adolin is just tearing himself apart. No one notice. They are too busy with their own stuff. Sadeas murder blows up. Insert here what you think may happen.

 

Here the ones I can think of so far.

[Aleksiel]

Scenario 2: Adolin gets accused of Sadeas murder. He is forced to surrender his shardblade and he is imprisoned waiting for his trial. He knows he will get banished. Shallan visits. He is distressed. He asks her to come with him in banishment. He claims they can get married in another country and find a place to live. She refuses. She claims Radianhood, Urithiru (and the Ghostblood, but she won't admit it) are more important. She says she cannot drop her work to go with him. He is crushed: his family refuses to defend him and the women he loves refuses to elope with him. He gets send away, alone and heart-broken, not knowing where to go. They may or they may not meet again in the future, but I hope they do

 

Aaand he's the villain of the second five books