Healing Shardblade wounds

[jag519]

Ok, we know Kaladin has healed a shardblade wound and that you could, it just takes a lot more stormlight. 

 

Szeth has said in the first time we see him, that he would not be able to heal if he was cut with the shardblade. Is this because he just didn't have enough stormlight from the lights in the hallways? When he thought about not being able to heal was it more of a "right now" and not "shardblade wounds can't be healed" 

[Shaggai]

It's a Cognitive thing. Szeth knows Shardblade wounds can't be healed, so he can't heal them. Kaladin knows that Stormlight can heal a lot of things, so it can heal his Shardblade wounds.

[Wrath]

Szeth gains his abilities from the Honourblade he carries, and an Honourblade can only heal injuries from a Shardblade if it's one of the two with access to the Progression Surge. It may or may not be because an Honourblade consumes more Stormlight than ordinary Surgebinding.

Kaladin doesn't have Progression but he can heal a Shardblade injury with enough Stormlight, though only so long as it doesn't sever his spine.

[Aether]

Szeth gains his abilities from the Honourblade he carries, and an Honourblade can only heal injuries from a Shardblade if it's one of the two with access to the Progression Surge.

How do you know this? There are obvious differences in power level between Kaladin and Szeth, but how do we know that Szeth cannot heal from a Shardblade wound and that he could with the right Honourblade?

[Baine]

I think it's just that Szeth cannot get/keep enough Stormlight to use it to heal himself. 

He's just not as powerful as a Radiant.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

It's a Cognitive thing. Szeth knows Shardblade wounds can't be healed, so he can't heal them. Kaladin knows that Stormlight can heal a lot of things, so it can heal his Shardblade wounds.

 

My thought process was that maybe because of Kaladin's history in medicine and surgery, that he is able to access the other surge. Cognitively speaking, Kaladin really views himself in two ways, the soldier, and the surgeon. Could this grant him access, if only limited, to regrowth?

[Aether]

My thought process was that maybe because of Kaladin's history in medicine and surgery, that he is able to access the other surge. Cognitively speaking, Kaladin really views himself in two ways, the soldier, and the surgeon. Could this grant him access, if only limited, to regrowth?

Cognitive conceptions does influence how the magic in the Cosmere works, but I don't think it would grant Kaladin special powers in this particular case. If he had access to the Progression surge, he might be be able to do some fancy stuff with it, thinking of himself as quite the capable healer and with medical knowledge far beyond average, but Stormlight healing is a passive ability of which he has little to no control (at least not currently). His tenacity and survivor instinct might influence how fast he can heal himself, but I don't think that is enough to let him invent himself new and unique abilities.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Cognitive conceptions does influence how the magic in the Cosmere works, but I don't think it would grant Kaladin special powers in this particular case. If he had access to the Progression surge, he might be be able to do some fancy stuff with it, thinking of himself as quite the capable healer and with medical knowledge far beyond average, but Stormlight healing is a passive ability of which he has little to no control (at least not currently). His tenacity and survivor instinct might influence how fast he can heal himself, but I don't think that is enough to let him invent himself new and unique abilities.

 

I'm definitely not suggesting that he has access to the whole surge, but comparatively speaking, healing on this world is much simpler compared to that of Sel. Using Aons to heal, they had to know specific modifiers for bones and sinew, and that knowledge shaped the healing. Kaladin's knowledge of the body and healing might give shape to the stormlight in a similar way, even if it isn't of the Progression surge. 

 

 

Except . . . He could almost feel

. . .

A moment of surprise. A moment to live. Perhaps. . . Kaladin felt the Light working, the tempest withihn straining and pushing. He gritted his teeth, and heaved somehow.

The color returned to his hand, and feeling-cold pain-suddenly flooded his arm, hand, fingers. Light began to stream from his hand. 

WoR Chapter 33 Burdens

 

I definitely agree that before, Stormlight healing was passive. Kaladin couldn't feel it working before he was conciously aware, and barely notices it when it is working after he understands. This just seems like it's very different from the normal passive healing. This required active concentration and thought. I definitely could be very wrong, but I remember seeing a WoB that I can't find at the moment that said there was something very different between how Kaladin healed and Szeth healed. 

[Aether]

I definitely agree that before, Stormlight healing was passive. Kaladin couldn't feel it working before he was conciously aware, and barely notices it when it is working after he understands. This just seems like it's very different from the normal passive healing. This required active concentration and thought. I definitely could be very wrong, but I remember seeing a WoB that I can't find at the moment that said there was something very different between how Kaladin healed and Szeth healed. 

Rereading that passage, Kaladin is definitely actively directing his Stormlight. It remains to be seen, though if this is something that is unique to him, or if all KR (or specific Orders) can do this with enough training (and/or talent).

[Sabrina Stormshard]

It's a Cognitive thing. Szeth knows Shardblade wounds can't be healed, so he can't heal them. Kaladin knows that Stormlight can heal a lot of things, so it can heal his Shardblade wounds.

 

 

Also Syl notes that the abilities from honorblades use a lot more stormlight than the normal KR abilities.

 

Also, we can, from Szeth's comment that he wouldn't be able to heal a Shardblade wound, assume that 

before Kaladin (albeit temporarily) killed him

he had never been harmed by a Blade, so it may just be ignorance on it being possible, and having never tried, rather than it actually being impossible for him (due to amount of SL needed, or other reasons)

[Wherethewindgoes]

 I definitely could be very wrong, but I remember seeing a WoB that I can't find at the moment that said there was something very different between how Kaladin healed and Szeth healed. 

 

There are two regarding Shardblade healing:

 

Q:  What about Kaladin getting sliced with the Shardblade and then being able to rejuvenate.

A:  That is a clue for what is going on with Szeth and his understanding of Shardblades and the Shardblade he has.

Q:  Which is an Honorblade, right?

A:  I can't say, but Szeth says in book one you can't heal a Shardblade wound with Stormlight. There are other very big but subtle discrepancies between what Szeth does and what Kaladin does.

 

 

 

 

Q:  Szeth in the prologue of book one says he can't heal from a Shardblade wound, but Kaladin can.  What is the distinction there?

A:  You should be looking to see if you can find other distinctions between what Szeth says and what happens to Kaladin, because there's three or four big inconsistencies.

 

I imagine either Szeth can't heal because his Honorblade healing isn't as powerful, or you can heal wounds from Honorblades and not Shardblades.

 

On another note, how exactly does Szeth know that you can't heal Shardblade wounds with Stormlight? Perhaps he has witnessed two people with Honorblades fighting? That could mean Radiants can heal Shardblade wounds but people with Honorblades couldn't.

[Aether]

Ok, time for the Listmaker to swoop in. Let's see if we can't List the discrepancies between Kaladin and Szeth:

1. Szeth consumes Stormlight much faster than Kaladin.
2. Szeth can hold Stormlight much less efficiently than Kaladin.
3. Szeth gets his abilities from Jezrien's Honourblade; Kaladin gets his abilities through a Nahel Bond with an Honourspren.
4. Presumably, Szeth cannot bond Squires.
5. Szeth needs ten heartbeats to summon his Blade, Kaladin needs none. This might not be inherent of the Honourblade, but due to Szeth's perception.

Anything else we can think of?

 

Edit: Added #5.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Aether

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Szeth seems to have been trained formally, and may have cognitive restrictions because of his perception. 

Edited April 15, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Moogle]

Ok, time for the Listmaker to swoop in. Let's see if we can't List the discrepancies between Kaladin and Szeth:

1. Szeth consumes Stormlight much faster than Kaladin.
2. Szeth can hold Stormlight much less efficiently than Kaladin.
3. Szeth gets his abilities from Jezrien's Honourblade; Kaladin gets his abilities through a Nahel Bond with an Honourspren.
4. Presumably, Szeth cannot bond Squires.

Anything else we can think of?

 

I'd argue 1 and 2 are the same thing, and I'm not so sure on the squire thing. It seems like it would have been useful for the Heralds to have squires, but it's more of a term for a knight, so...

Edited April 15, 2014 by Moogle

[Aether]

Szeth seems to have been trained formally, and may have cognitive restrictions because of his perception. 

Szeth needs 10 Heartbeats to summon his Blade, but that might be a conceptual thing. Only dead Radiantblades need 10 heartbeats to summon, and that is to partially revive the spren by syncing it to your own heartbeat. It seems strange that the Honourblades, of which the Radiantblades are copies, would need 10 heartbeats to summon.

I'd argue 1 and 2 are the same thing, and I'm not so sure on the squire thing. It seems like it would have been useful for the Heralds to have squires, but it's more of a term for a knight, so...

I disagree on the first part. One is about actively using it, either through use of surges or through healing etc, the other is about holding and containing it. It might only be a slight nuance, but I feel like it should count even so.

[Kasimir]

1. Would the way Szeth and Kaladin use Stormlight to heal count? Upthread, EMTrevor makes what I think is a good point: we never see Szeth directing Stormlight actively towards his injuries. Not in the way Kaladin did when he tried to heal his hand.
 
2. Also on the point of Stormlight healing: in WoK, Szeth comments, with regard to the injuries he'd taken from fighting Gavilar, that "Stormlight healing was far from instantaneous. It would be hours before he recovered." (p. 54; but my copy is weird.) As far as I recall, Kaladin seems to heal from injuries a lot faster. He did spend about two weeks recovering from being hung in the highstorm, but he actually survived, and after that, didn't get Stormlight until Teft brought some spheres. By WoR, when he fights alongside Adolin, he heals from broken legs presumably in the span of minutes. And let's not forget the end of WoR where he heals almost instantly from very bad injuries upon saying the Second Ideal.
 
These, I'm just throwing them out there: In WoK, Szeth notes that his Lashings "wouldn't work directly on someone in Shardplate" and there's the line about how he can't use Shardplate because his Lashings interfere with the gems in Shardplate. I don't think we've yet seen Kaladin attempt to Lash anyone in Shardplate but there's some indication Kaladin can use Shardplate, though I'm not sure if that's the way Szeth meant it. I'm referring to the bit where Kaladin uses a helmet as a glove, but finds out that because it was leaking, it ended up stealing his Stormlight to repair itself.
 
Also, Kaladin seems to have a connection to the winds we don't see with Szeth. He refers to the winds and the sky as his, and when he's fighting with Szeth, we get this interesting bit that mirrors something we see in the Adolin-plus-four-others duel:
 

"Winds surged beneath him, seeming to lift him, propel him. Carry him."

 

Compare to:

 

"The wind began to blow around him. Syl returned to him, zipping through the air as a ribbon of light.

Kaladin ducked another blow, then slammed his improvised shield against the Blade of the other, throwing it back. Sand flew as Kaladin leaped back, a Shardblade biting the ground before him.

Wind. Motion. Kaladin fought two Shardbearers at once, knocking their Blades aside with the helm. He couldn’t attack—didn’t dare try to attack. He could only survive, and in this, the winds seemed to urge him.

Instinct . . . then something deeper . . . guided his steps. He danced between those Blades, cool air wrapping around him. And for a moment, he felt—impossibly—that he could have dodged just as well if his eyes had been closed.

The Shardbearers cursed, trying again and again. Kaladin heard the judge say something, but was too absorbed in the fight to pay attention. The crowd was growing louder. He leaped one attack, then stepped just to the side of another.

You could not kill the wind. You could not stop it. It was beyond the touch of men. It was infinite. . . .

His Stormlight ran out."

 

 

Edited April 16, 2014 by Kasimir

[Vessyr]

The easy answer is that it is a cognitive thing like Shaggai said, but for the sake of discussion more theories are always welcome.

 

I think an important part that we need to explore is how we think the blades themselves cut things. I am new here and have only read a few threads so if this is discussed somewhere else I am sorry.

 

What if stormlight is a form of chi or life energy? All of the plant and animal life always is very active after the highstorm. This could also be why it makes them want to move when they are holding it in. This would mean that everyone has a small amount to some degree, but they don't have the ability to manipulate it.

 

The spren are residents of the cognitive realm but they are able to manifest some in the physical realm. The shardblades are the spren themselves that have been bonded. What if the edge of the blade isn't in the physical realm but only in the cognitive? That could be why the blades only cut inanimate objects. They are spltting the spren/little beads and which makes cuts manifest the way they do. So with a living creature you have to sever the soul or flow of chi before the blade can make other cuts. I currently have no explaination for how I think the honorblades cut. Shardblades are imitiations of them so I am sure there is a difference.

 

Regarding the list point about consuming stormlight - What if the spren acts like a valve for the stormlight? Syl might control the amount of the flow while Kaladin manipulates it. So without the ability or finesse to control the flow Szeth burns through it more quickly. Whereas Syl is able to help Kaladin by giving him access to just what he needs to accomplish what he is trying to do. Just an off the wall idea....

 

The connection to the wind that Kasimir brings up probably has to do with being bound to Syl. Since she is cousin to the windspren he might be able to read the flow of the wind because of the bond. This would help explain the arena with how he moves so fluidly while reading his opponents movements. He also seems to easily attract windspren just like Shallan easily attracts creationspren. Creations can represent fact or fiction. So the Cryptic could be cousin to creationspren with their truth and lies thinking.

 

Aether mentioned actively directing the stormlight - Shallan did that too. She didn't do it to heal but she put some stormlight into Pattern as well as into the spheres in the lamps before activating the portal.

 

I am finally done rambling after touching on many tangents. Feel free to point out all the flaws in my thinking so we can find solid theories... assuming you were able to survive my wall of text.