Popular Post Aether he/him Posted April 11, 2014 Popular Post Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 (edited) Before I launch the intended discussion, let me preface this by confirming that yes, that is a real word. I think "squiredom" would be a more apt term to pertain to "the act of becomming/being a squire", but it is by far not as fun a word. Got that? Good. Moving on..This was originally intended to be to be apost about me fanboying over Gaz. For me, he was one of the more pleasant surprises in the Way of Kings. He looked like he was being built up to be the run-of-the-mill token obnoxious bully, but his PoV chapter gave him a lot of depth, and he suddenly became one of the most interesting side-characters in the entire book. Now, with the introduction of Knight Radiant Squires and the effects experienced by Lopen, I think it likely that Gaz will become one of Shallan's squires, and that that will permit him to regrow his eye. Which I think is great! Good for you, Gaz!.But this got me thinking: who can be squires, and what are the abilities we expect them to get?.Who: The Words of Radiance does not delve deeply into what the squires are and what they can do, but it does seem like there was a number of "Squires" associated with every radiant - soldiers who are granted the ability to retain and use Stormlight by their, for the lack of a better word, "bond" with their Radiant. Whether this bond is obtained through a close connection to their Radiant or bestowed upon them intentionally or unintentionally (or both) remains to be seen, but given that the only one who has shown any signs of squiredom up to this point are Lopen and a few unnamed members of Bridge Four (chapter 87: "the Riddens"), a member of Kaladin's inner circle, the former seems likely..Also, note that there each Knight Radiant seems to be able to have quite a lot of Squires. The following passage references "a considerable number of squires" for only sixteen Windrunners. While "considerable" is still very unspecific, in my book, it is firmly above "many", "a lot of" and variables thereupon, so I shan't be entirely averse to the idea that all of the original members of Bridge Four are potential squires. Or maybe even the extended Officer class of the new Bridge Four.. "There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate."- The Words of Radiance, epigraph to chapter 54: "Veil's Lesson", page 625 of the Tor hard-cover. .What: Squires are only shown or referenced a handful of times in the entire book. The first time we see them is in Dalinar's vision in chapter 4: "Taker of Secrets" (They aren't referred to as squires, but given information surfacing later in the book, it seems pretty clear that these are squires, and not proto-Radiants, nor does it seem squires are a specific trait of the Dustbringers/Releasers, as was suggested in the pre-release discussion on the chapter). : Soldiers approaching [the Thunderclast] bearing hammers, and unexpectedly, these men now also glowed with Stormlight, though far more faintly.- From the Words of Radiance, chapter 4, page 76 of the Tor hard-cover Now, there isn't a whole lot of information that can be extracted from this passage, but some conjectures can be drawn; Squiredom gives in-combat abilities, otherwise there would be little point of using it at this point in the battle against the Thunderclast.. They are using hammers against a creature cast of rock, which suggests that their Stormlight retention gives them at the very least enhanced strength, and likely enhanced reflexes and/or agility as well. Otherwise, they would be fatally ineffective in the battle against the Thunderclast, and would be able to function only as distractions.. The fainter glow suggests that whatever abilities they get, they aren't as powerful as their master Radiant. The next time we see a squire is when Lopen, apparently after weeks of trying to inhale Stormlight, finally displays the signs of becoming one of the the first Squires in modern times: The Lopen sucked in Light.It happened in an eyeblink, and then there he sat, Stormlight streaming from his skin."Ha!" He shouted, leaping to his feet. "Hey, Chilinko, come back here. I need to stick you to the wall!"The Light winked out. The Lopen stopped, frowning, and held his hand up in front of him. Gone so fast? What had happened? He hesitated. That tingling...He felt at his shoulder, the one where he'd lost his arm so long ago. There, his fingers prodded a new snub of flesh that had begun sprouting from his scar.- From The Words of Radiance, chapter 87: "The Riddens", page 1043 of the Tor hard-cover. Again, it's not much, but we can still get some information out of it: Most importantly, Squires can draw Stormlight on their own, and are not dependent on being bestowed Light from a nearby Radiant as was previously thought. This is proves that Squiredom is its own thing (though subservient to a Radiant), and suggests that they become Squires through their close connection with a Knight Radiant. It also debunks the hypothesis that Squires are a quirk of the Division surge.. Most interestingly, Squires get Stormlight healing, which is just as powerful - or at the very least close to - as the healing of a Knight Radiant, though perhaps not as quick. A major reveal for tWoR was that Stormlight could heal libs Seared by Shardblades. Apparently, it can regrow limbs too. Do note that the chapter specifically says "where he'd lost his arm so long ago". Being able to heal something that has damaged and healed a long time in the past jointly suggests that Stormlight healing is quite possibly the most powerful healing ability in the entire Cosmere besides Gold compounding, and because of how Cosmere healing works, that Lopen still has quite a powerful image of himself as a "whole" man, which is sweet. Lopen seems to think that he'll get the use of the Windrunner surges as well, but I fear he is ripe for disappointment on that particular point. . WoB has also elaborated upon the subject: Q [31:13]: Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah has this geolocation thing, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on? (You will notice my amazing mastery over the English language here, expressed in these beautifully structured sentences...) A: There is something supernatural about those. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at scholars' interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, and some who think that they are. But, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities.Q: So it's definitely tied to the Orders?A: It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... these are abnormal for the Windrunners.Q: And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'?A: Yeeeaaaa... some Orders do not have them.Q: But some have more?A: Yea.<source> Pretty straightforward, but for the sake of consistency and clarity, from this we can deduce that: The number of Squires per Radiant varied between the Orders. Some had significantly more than others, some none at all. The Windrunners' Squires seem to be particularly numerous and powerful. Which might again imply a variance of power between Squires from other Orders as well. The latter piece of information implies that Gaz might not be able to regrow his eye after-all. ..TL; DR: Squiredom is it's own thing and they can operate separately of their Radiant. They likely have enhanced strength, agility and reflexes, and have a crazily over-powered healing ability. Squires gain their abilities through a close connection to a Knight Radiant. The number of Squires a Radiant is able to bond and the strength of these depends on the Radiant Order. The Windrunners in particular seems to be able to "bond" significantly more and stronger Squires than other Orders. Gaz may or may not be able to regrow his eye.Damned formatting forces me to have a significant amount of invisible writing.EDIT: Revised statement about Lopen being the only one, as Teft in the same chapter mentions a couple of Bridgemen glowing (page 1047, Tor hard-cover). Teft only mentions it in passing, so no new information on the subject. . EDIT 2: Weaved in further information provided by Kurk. Edited May 30, 2014 by Aether 20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ja he/him Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 I don't think that Lopen is the only squire we have seen. During the battle at the end of WoR, many of Kaladin's bridgemen are glowing. Two of them, working together, are able to save Adolin, who was in shardplate, from falling. Still, I think you are right with what squires are. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether he/him Posted April 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 (edited) I don't think that Lopen is the only squire we have seen. During the battle at the end of WoR, many of Kaladin's bridgemen are glowing. Two of them, working together, are able to save Adolin, who was in shardplate, from falling. Still, I think you are right with what squires are. Darn it. I forgot about that. Thanks, I'll revise my claim about Lopen being the first. I don't think it gives any additional information, though. Edited April 11, 2014 by Aether Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 Before WoR came out, I had theories that Shallan's "collection" of people she had sketched would be important somehow. I think that the new collection she started is going to include all of her squires. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan he/him Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 I can get behind most of this. A few links that may be of use to you: Quote on Squires: Q [31:13]: Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah has this geolocation thing, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on? (You will notice my amazing mastery over the English language here, expressed in these beautifully structured sentences...)A: There is something supernatural about those. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at scholars' interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, and some who think that they are. But, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities.Q: So it's definitely tied to the Orders?A: It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... these are abnormal for the Windrunners.Q: And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'?A: Yeeeaaaa... some Orders do not have them.Q: But some have more?A: Yea. WoP on Squires in WoK (embedded in a thread about Squires): You should look for squires in the first book too. (And I'm not talking about the prelude.) WoB on Lopen's arm: Q [1:01:52]: Why can Stormlight heal Lopen's arm, but can't heal Kaladin's scars?A: Because a lot of the healing in the cosmere works on principles of expectation and how you envision yourself. Q: So Kaladin has accepted the scars.A: And Lopen never accepted the one arm. It's one of these ties when I built the magic systems that I wanted certain threads to run through them, so when I eventually have them being used in the same books, there will be consistency among them, so they won't feel like everything's just thrown together. So, the intention and expectation, for instance, in Warbreaker. What you want to have happen, the expectation, the way you are thinking about things, all that influences what actually happens. Very important for most of the cosmere magics. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi5 Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 I think its possible that Kaladin's squires will probably be able to fly somehow. Otherwise, most of the time Kaladin's squires won't be able to help him as he has to constantly rush off to save different people. The quote about the windrunners coming with a considerable number of their squires implies to me that either the squires can keep up with the windrunners somehow, or the windrunners chose to just walk. Unfortunately, the context doesn't make it clear, but I think the windrunners came at best speed rather than walked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybal Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 I think its possible that Kaladin's squires will probably be able to fly somehow. Otherwise, most of the time Kaladin's squires won't be able to help him as he has to constantly rush off to save different people. The quote about the windrunners coming with a considerable number of their squires implies to me that either the squires can keep up with the windrunners somehow, or the windrunners chose to just walk. Unfortunately, the context doesn't make it clear, but I think the windrunners came at best speed rather than walked. Maybe Windrunners can affect their squires as easily as they can affect themselves. Maybe they can even use their squires' Stormlight to use the surges on them. (complete theorizing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether he/him Posted April 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 Or the Windrunner could just Full Lash them all into a big ball of Squires, then Basic Lash that ball into the desired direction. An efficient, if somewhat brutal and intimate, means of transportation. 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesomeness Summoned he/him Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 Until the next book inevitably proves me wrong, I'm of the opinion that squires only receive the direct effects of stormlight, i.e. increased strength, reflexes, and healthing, not the surge abilities. The squires are in a way bonding the knight and gaining access to stormlight but you have to have a direct nahel bond to a spren to receive the surges. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 Don't have the quote to hand, but one I like is Teft in TWoK when he sees Kaladin fight at the end of the book and says that Stormlight doesn't grant abilities but perfects them. Kaladin, an excellent fighter, becomes a force of nature. So anyone's special physical skills will become exceptional. The example I used in a different thread was Rock's stew archery becoming amazing. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether he/him Posted April 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 Don't have the quote to hand, but one I like is Teft in TWoK when he sees Kaladin fight at the end of the book and says that Stormlight doesn't grant abilities but perfects them. Kaladin, an excellent fighter, becomes a force of nature. So anyone's special physical skills will become exceptional. The example I used in a different thread was Rock's stew archery becoming amazing. The glowing hands of Rock will now be able to stir that stew to perfection! 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arin he/him Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 I think you are right on this. I am afraid to learn why WRs need so many though. And the squires flying should be easy. All Kal is doing is lashing himself in the right direction. He can do that with anything. I look forward to seeing him practice that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesomeness Summoned he/him Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 I think you are right on this. I am afraid to learn why WRs need so many though. And the squires flying should be easy. All Kal is doing is lashing himself in the right direction. He can do that with anything. I look forward to seeing him practice that. Just partially lash them so they are weightless, lash them to your belt buckle, and voila you have a trailing set of bridgemen balloons. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 I think you are right on this. I am afraid to learn why WRs need so many though. And the squires flying should be easy. All Kal is doing is lashing himself in the right direction. He can do that with anything. I look forward to seeing him practice that. I don't think it's "need." In fact I'm not convinced that it's specifically a special power of Windrunners to have more Squires than the other orders. What I think is that the two attributes of a Windrunner are Protecting and Leading, and that these lead to them forming strong bonds with larger groups than other Knights Radiant. Enhanced charisma as the supernatural skill, that is. More Squires because they lead larger groups, stronger Squires because the bonds are stronger and more power can be transferred. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted April 12, 2014 Report Share Posted April 12, 2014 I think its possible that Kaladin's squires will probably be able to fly somehow. Otherwise, most of the time Kaladin's squires won't be able to help him as he has to constantly rush off to save different people. The quote about the windrunners coming with a considerable number of their squires implies to me that either the squires can keep up with the windrunners somehow, or the windrunners chose to just walk. Unfortunately, the context doesn't make it clear, but I think the windrunners came at best speed rather than walked. I don't think it's really that important for the squires to be able to get around quickly. From a tactical perspective, it would be pretty reasonable if the squires primarily held ground after the Windrunner achieved breakthrough or dealt with a enemy attack. The main problem Kaladin has is not that he needs more firepower (he by himself is probably enough to deal with any typical force, let alone a whole squad of Windrunners) but he needs people to cover areas where he's not, and hold out when things get bad until he can get there (this is effectively what happens at the end of WoR). So Kaladin flies around putting out fires, the squires (probably working with Stonewards) come in after to hold the ground and protect the area from any moderate threats, standing on against bigger threats until Kaladin can get back to deal with it. Air Cav + heavy infantry, basically. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Radagu she/her Posted April 12, 2014 Report Share Posted April 12, 2014 Just partially lash them so they are weightless, lash them to your belt buckle, and voila you have a trailing set of bridgemen balloons. Now I have this mental image of the house from UP, with the balloons replaced by bridge four. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi5 Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 I don't think it's really that important for the squires to be able to get around quickly. From a tactical perspective, it would be pretty reasonable if the squires primarily held ground after the Windrunner achieved breakthrough or dealt with a enemy attack. The main problem Kaladin has is not that he needs more firepower (he by himself is probably enough to deal with any typical force, let alone a whole squad of Windrunners) but he needs people to cover areas where he's not, and hold out when things get bad until he can get there (this is effectively what happens at the end of WoR). So Kaladin flies around putting out fires, the squires (probably working with Stonewards) come in after to hold the ground and protect the area from any moderate threats, standing on against bigger threats until Kaladin can get back to deal with it. Air Cav + heavy infantry, basically. I see what your getting at, but that only works over a small area. The quote in the book about the Windrunners coming with a considerable number of squires sounds like it is talking about some big event. I am assuming that whatever event happened that drew the Windrunners and their squires probably didn't happen really close to a group of Windrunners with their squires, I am assuming that they probably had some distance to travel. I don't really have any strong evidence, its just something that I expect we would see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether he/him Posted April 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 I see what your getting at, but that only works over a small area. The quote in the book about the Windrunners coming with a considerable number of squires sounds like it is talking about some big event. I am assuming that whatever event happened that drew the Windrunners and their squires probably didn't happen really close to a group of Windrunners with their squires, I am assuming that they probably had some distance to travel. I don't really have any strong evidence, its just something that I expect we would see. I fail to see to see the grounds for that. Yes, it was probably a big event, but there is nothing that implies that they had to have come from far away. Remember, even if they couldn't just lash their Squires around, that the world was a considerably smaller place back then, with access to Oathgates. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalenthas Posted April 14, 2014 Report Share Posted April 14, 2014 Indeed, it's implied that the event they are attending takes place in Urithiru, making Oathgate travel the most likely explanation. Remember that all the other orders of Knights Radiant were in attendance too, so flying was not a prerequisite to get there in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether he/him Posted April 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2014 Indeed, it's implied that the event they are attending takes place in Urithiru, making Oathgate travel the most likely explanation. Remember that all the other orders of Knights Radiant were in attendance too, so flying was not a prerequisite to get there in time. Wait, what now? Only the Skybreakers - who also have access to the Gravity surge - are noted as attending the same event, and the location is never mentioned. The only other passage from the same chapter of "the Words of Radiance" talks about the Skybreakers' strangely excellent debating skills. Of course, it might be taking place in Urithiru, and other Orders might be present as well, but we don't really have any inkling either way. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him Posted May 4, 2014 Report Share Posted May 4, 2014 Maybe the squires are the ones that made the most out of the old school Fabrials? and that is why they were fundamentally different, because the squire had the ability to hold Stormlight so was able to entice the Spren that cause/are attracted to, the use of the surge, meaning that they didn't have to trap a Spren they just needed them to be around. My next question is why were the Soulcaster Fabrials the only ones to survive? Why not the Regrowth Fabrials? Or any of the other ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Maybe the squires are the ones that made the most out of the old school Fabrials? and that is why they were fundamentally different, because the squire had the ability to hold Stormlight so was able to entice the Spren that cause/are attracted to, the use of the surge, meaning that they didn't have to trap a Spren they just needed them to be around. My next question is why were the Soulcaster Fabrials the only ones to survive? Why not the Regrowth Fabrials? Or any of the other ones. I think Nale had a Regrowth fabrial to revive Szeth with. I don't know that the other fabrials did not survive. My questions are: Why did the Radiants pass on exactly the fabrials they did? What did they do with the others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
signspace13 he/him Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 (edited) What about Shallan's squires? I definitely agree that I would love to see good'ol Gaz get his eye back, but what is the likeliness of the the lightweavers getting squires. I mean if we look at the skill set of the lightweavers what do we think that the most likely outcome of there role as radiants would be? Assassins, or spys. Assassins is debatable but I think it is likely, now if people that were close to said Radiant even undercover started glowing then I think the cat would be out of the bag and they would have to get away. so I find the chances of squires for Shallan low. But if we were to put a simple condition on the squiredom like, Shallan has to trust them, and they have to know she is a radiant before they can achieve squiredom. But then we have to ask ourselves what help would a glowy hanger on be to a lightweaver, perhaps if they get into a fight they might help, but I think a good lightweaver could probably talk themselves out of an execution if given the chance so I find that benefit unlikely. so the new questions from that are: -Why would Shallan need squires? -What would it take to become one? Edited May 5, 2014 by signspace13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 Kaladin Stormblessed and the Thousand Squires! Suddenly Lews Therin and the Hundred Companions pale in comparison. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 I think Nale had a Regrowth fabrial to revive Szeth with. I don't know that the other fabrials did not survive. My questions are: Why did the Radiants pass on exactly the fabrials they did? What did they do with the others? I have been kicking a theory around in my head that the Dawnsingers were the Aiminians and that the Dawnshards were the ancient Shardplate. I have started to think, with no real evidence, that the reason they were so much more powerful back in the day was because they were a combination of Shardplate and Soulcaster and that is why the Soulcasters are the only Fabrials to survive in large quantities. I have also started to think, again no real evidence, that the reason the ancient Fabrials were so different is because they didn't need a Spren to be trapped in a gem they instead voluntarily entered the gem and benefited by gaining a small amount of intelligence, similar to the bond the Parshendi have with Spren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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