Moogle Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 An interesting thought I had was the slight inconsistency in the following: "What is this, Jezrien?" Kalak asked. "Where are the others?""Departed." Jezrien's voice was calm, deep, regal. Though he hadn't worn a crown in centuries, his royal manner lingered. He always seemed to know what to do. "You might call it a miracle. Only one of us died this time.""Talenel," Kalak said. His was the only Blade unaccounted for."Yes. He died holding that passage by the northern waterway."Kalak nodded. Taln had a tendency to choose seemingly hopeless fights and win them. He also had a tendency to die in the process. He would be back now, in the place where they went between Desolations. The place of nightmares....Jezrien nodded to the ring of weapons. "I was chosen to wait for you. We weren't certain if you survived. A... a decision has been made. It is time for the Oathpact to end."Kalak felt a sharp stab of horror. "What will that do?""Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations." The Heralds knew that Taln was dead, but not Kalak. Only Taln died out of all the Heralds. This might be called a "miracle", according to Jezrien, but I have an alternative theory: Taln was murdered by one of the other Heralds. Ishar just so happens to think that only one Herald had to be sent to Damnation to keep Odium bound. Only one Herald died. An odd coincidence. They knew Taln died, but not Kalak? Why? (Plausible explanation: Kalak can teleport, so he helps out a bunch of different places, whereas Taln chose a known place and told people where it was.) Taln is known for dying and choosing hopeless fights. His death would not be suspicious to the other Heralds. Jezrien says "you might call it a miracle", but he wouldn't. The Heralds were all gone by the time Kalak got there. Why didn't they include him in on the decision to abandon the Oathpact? Perhaps because he wouldn't have wanted to kill Taln? There's also this tidbit from WoR: One is almost certainly a traitor to the others. —From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer: paragraph 27 The Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer talks about the Unmade and the "nature of kingship", so it's plausible it swapped to talking about the Heralds as well. I think this theory is fairly unlikely, but it has potential. Anyone have anything to add? 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 No, I don't think so. Ishar just so happens to think that only one Herald had to be sent to Damnation to keep Odium bound. Only one Herald died. An odd coincidence. It's also possible that Ishar had been thinking about avoiding the Oathpact for a long time, suspecting that the Oathpact doesn't require all of them to go back. Seeing that only one of them had died during this Desolation, he decided this was their best chance to attempt to escape their burden. The highest number of them get a chance for freedom, the lowest number of them have to suffer in Damnation. They knew Taln died, but not Kalak? Why? (Plausible explanation: Kalak can teleport, so he helps out a bunch of different places, whereas Taln chose a known place and told people where it was.) This one could be explained easily. Taln's location may have been known (which is highly likely, since the Heralds probably planned the battle). One of the Heralds could've seen Taln fall. There could be some things that indicate the death of a Herald (a flash of light, a boom of sound, a feeling of a lost connection, a magical announcement, etc). Taln is known for dying and choosing hopeless fights. His death would not be suspicious to the other Heralds. True, but that's an argument you can use to support a theory, not build one on. Jezrien says "you might call it a miracle", but he wouldn't. Again, true, but it's also a pretty common figure of speech. The Heralds were all gone by the time Kalak got there. Why didn't they include him in on the decision to abandon the Oathpact? Perhaps because he wouldn't have wanted to kill Taln? Looking at the Heralds' divine attributes, Kalak is far from the most likely to defend Taln. Jezrien (protecting) and Ishar (pious) would be first in line here, likely followed by Nale (just) and Vedel (loving). You also assume that all of the Heralds survived the actual battle, and only after it was over did the other eight decide to kill Taln - and it all happened before Kalak could get there. I can't say this has potential, no. I'd be really surprised if it turns out to be even partially true. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ati Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 This one could be explained easily. Taln's location may have been known (which is highly likely, since the Heralds probably planned the battle). One of the Heralds could've seen Taln fall. There could be some things that indicate the death of a Herald (a flash of light, a boom of sound, a feeling of a lost connection, a magical announcement, etc). Thoroughly amused by the mental scenario that last one brings up. "Your attention please. Yes Nalan, and you. You, the thunderclast over there. Yes, please stop fighting for a moment, if you would. Talenlelat'Elin, Stonesinew has fallen. That will be all, you may resume." Anyway, I love all the theories people come up with on here. Can't say I'm persuaded by this one, but fun to read nonetheless. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Is it even possible for the Heralds to kill each other? If I were Honor/Tanavest and had to empower 10 champions to protect my planet, I'd include some provision to prevent friendly fire. I think that the closest thing we'll get to this is having another Herald(s) deliberately choosing to either not save Taln or to divert voidbringers from their position to Taln's. Interesting theory though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 It's a cool idea, Moog. That epigraph note makes me think that, if it fits, it would be one Herald planning all of this out, not an organized thing. If Jezrien murdered Taln and then convinced the rest of his plan, they'd be much more likely to accept it as he is their leader. Jezrien could be the one that is the traitor. I had assumed it would be Nalan for other reasons, but that works too. As this is obviously a theory, I don't need to tell you how unlikely this is or question the stability of your evidence - if you had all of the proper evidence, there would be no discussion, because it would be fact - so I will just say that it's an interesting thought and definitely not impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haradion Drogon Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 I... Actually really like this theory. If one of them became "corrupted" by Odium, I can easily see this taking shape. I like this as a theory - though it remains to be seen if it is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PorridgeBrick Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 I like this theory a lot. It seems just like the sort of plot twist Sanderson would add. But now I've got another idea building off from this, and even more speculative. We know Sanderson's been acting very strange over Taln's identity, and in his interlude we see that quote about the "Gift and Words" not being his – in fact, never his. So what if the Heralds somehow switched Taln's position and powers to some poor innocent and then murdered him, so that he would fulfill the Oathpact for them? Completely baseless, but it's a fun thought. Either way, though, there's definitely something up with Taln and with the WoK prelude. I too find it very strange that Jezrien knows of Taln's death, but not whether or not Kalak is alive. And I agree that that epigraph is likely referring to the Heralds– there don't seem to be that many important groups of people out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Seems extremely plausible. Perhaps this is even related to why they're apparently being corrupted. Not just forsaking their duty but actually betraying one of their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasteel Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Hmm very nice! Great theory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyPilgrim Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 This is one I shall keep in mind for now. Your evidence seems sound to me, based on the limited information we have at this point. Also, we know that something is up with Taln. Brandon for all intents and purposes told us that the "Taln" in the books right now is not the real one. If he was murdered, then it is quite possible that something went wrong. He would view what the other Heralds' have done differently, and could even decide to hide or not return as expected because of it. I will keep this theory in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 This is one I shall keep in mind for now. Your evidence seems sound to me, based on the limited information we have at this point. Also, we know that something is up with Taln. Brandon for all intents and purposes told us that the "Taln" in the books right now is not the real one. If he was murdered, then it is quite possible that something went wrong. He would view what the other Heralds' have done differently, and could even decide to hide or not return as expected because of it. I will keep this theory in mind. Perhaps the Oathpact would really have held properly if Taln had died the way he was supposed to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khyrindor Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) Looking at the Heralds' divine attributes, Kalak is far from the most likely to defend Taln. Jezrien (protecting) and Ishar (pious) would be first in line here, likely followed by Nale (just) and Vedel (loving). You also assume that all of the Heralds survived the actual battle, and only after it was over did the other eight decide to kill Taln - and it all happened before Kalak could get there. Maybe Taln was corrupt? Jezrien would have been "protecting" the others, Nale would be getting justice, and maybe Vedel loved one of the others and supported (or at least decided not to hinder them). Edited April 9, 2014 by Khyrindor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) Perhaps the Oathpact would really have held properly if Taln had died the way he was supposed to? Shouldn't Taln's Oathgate, the Stonewards' one, be the gate in Kholinar that Jasnah has failed to open? I find the theory curious. It's possible at the very least. I'm pretty sure there are WoB saying it is indeed strange only one Herald died in such a battle as the one Kalak described. And Kalak notices that Jezrien is acting strange, looking cowardly. edit: I couldn't find the link to the WoB, but thankfully FirstSelector did: he quote that was referenced was here. Edited April 11, 2014 by Aleksiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) Ishar just so happens to think that only one Herald had to be sent to Damnation to keep Odium bound. Only one Herald died. An odd coincidence Or, they talked and realized that everyone couldn't go on anymore. They knew that Taln was dead, and were unsure regarding Kalak. Ishar proposed that one going back may be enough. We don't know when Ishar proposed this; it is equally likely to have happened after the battle than before. Based on the description of Jezrien and Kalak at this time, it seems even more likely to me that Ishar was desperate to propose any theory that means they don't have to go back. They knew Taln died, but not Kalak? Why? (Plausible explanation: Kalak can teleport, so he helps out a bunch of different places, whereas Taln chose a known place and told people where it was.) Communication failures in war; sometimes you get 8 reports of one thing, and none of another (see Kaladin's PoV of the battle where Tien died. Now imagine that, instead of some tiny border dispute, it's the final battle for the preservation of all of humanity on the planet.) Jezrien says "you might call it a miracle", but he wouldn't. You added emphasis to this line. At no point does Jezrien indicate that he wouldn't call only one of the Heralds dying a miracle. As Argent stated above, it's a common saying, too. Kaladin's surviving the Highstorm was also referred to as a miracle. Too, Jezrien might consider that he lived, instead of dying, to be a miracle. Kalak thinks to himself that "Had the other eight all died? It was possible. The battle had been so furious this time, one of the worst." By adding your own emphasis, you are disregarding what Jezrien actually said--it's a miracle. The Heralds were all gone by the time Kalak got there. Why didn't they include him in on the decision to abandon the Oathpact? Perhaps because he wouldn't have wanted to kill Taln? Once you've decided to make an unpleasant decision, such as betraying an Oath that you have held to for thousands of years, it's best to be done with it quickly, I'd imagine. And if Kalak disagreed with their decision, what could he have done against it? Die? You're saying that they murdered one Herald, but were too cowardly to murder two? And that in the case that Kalak would need to be killed, they let Jezrien stay behind to do it by himself, rather than all facing him as they presumably did against Taln? No, it's an intriguing theory, and an interesting one. However, I don't see any actual evidence to suggest that Taln being the lone casualty was anything short of a miracle, which left the rest a chance to seize the opportunity to be free of millennial torture. Edited April 9, 2014 by kaellok 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted April 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 And if Kalak disagreed with their decision, what could he have done against it? Die? You're saying that they murdered one Herald, but were too cowardly to murder two? To respond specifically to this (I agree in broad strokes with most of your other points, as I do believe this theory is very unlikely), I would argue Kalak is probably near-impossible to kill thanks to having Transportation. Taln is very immobile, and easy to kill, but Kalak or Betab would likely be a huge pain to try to kill. If you don't surprise them, they can just run away. It's safer for everyone if Kalak is just kept in the dark (assuming they were keeping him in the dark). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ati Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Shouldn't Taln's Oathgate, the Stonewards' one, be the gate in Kholinar that Jasnah has failed to open? I find the theory curious. It's possible at the very least. I'm pretty sure there are WoB saying it is indeed strange only one Herald died in such a battle as the one Kalak described. And Kalak notices that Jezrien is acting strange, looking cowardly. Aleksiel, Personally, I wouldn't read too much into Jezrien looking cowardly. They are all most likely feeling cowardly, they just abandoned a post that they've held for multiple milennia, if I read it right. Kalak certainly sounds to me like he's feeling cowardly based on what we get of his inner monologue, and consider it, Jezrien is supposed to be the herald exemplifying honor. Leaving a man behind, and abandoning their duty based on the idea that having left that man may preserve the world has to seriously chafe against his conscience. In my mind, it's no surprise that he seems to have lost his mind by the time of the books even without any other potential influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 I'm pretty sure there are WoB saying it is indeed strange only one Herald died in such a battle as the one Kalak described. And Kalak notices that Jezrien is acting strange, looking cowardly. I have seen no such thing, and I think it would lend significant support if you can find it. You should also not use it as support if you can't, because it's not a small thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 This is one I shall keep in mind for now. Your evidence seems sound to me, based on the limited information we have at this point. Also, we know that something is up with Taln. Brandon for all intents and purposes told us that the "Taln" in the books right now is not the real one. If he was murdered, then it is quite possible that something went wrong. He would view what the other Heralds' have done differently, and could even decide to hide or not return as expected because of it. I will keep this theory in mind. Wait, what now? How do we know that we likely have the wrong Taln? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Wait, what now? How do we know that we likely have the wrong Taln? Brandon keeps suggesting that. The Taln's Identity thread has more about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyPilgrim Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Wait, what now? How do we know that we likely have the wrong Taln? What Argent said. It could well be Brandon trolling us. I kind of wonder why he has come out with this so soon if it actually isn't Taln. Maybe he's sparing us some faulty theorizing. Although he seems to have spawned more theorizing than there would normally have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falconite Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 I like the theory - not sure it has much to go on, but plausible... One thing that may or may not have relevance... After tWoK was written, didn't Brandon refer somewhere to a mysterious death in tWoK? Was it ever ascertained who it was? I always thought it was Gaz who disappeared, but then he came back in WoR... Could it have been Taln in the prologue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyPilgrim Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 I like the theory - not sure it has much to go on, but plausible... One thing that may or may not have relevance... After tWoK was written, didn't Brandon refer somewhere to a mysterious death in tWoK? Was it ever ascertained who it was? I always thought it was Gaz who disappeared, but then he came back in WoR... Could it have been Taln in the prologue? I believe it was just Gaz he was referring to. He often said he thought his disappearance might spawn significant discussion. Obviously, Gas just deserted. So I don't think he could have been referring to Taln. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Ninja Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 I don't know about "murdered" but I do think another Herald was responsible for Taln's death back then, either directly or indirectly. That only one Herald died despite Kalak's comment that "Had the other eight all died? It was possible. The battle had been so furious this time, one of the worst." seems suspicious, and that it was the one with reputation for hopeless stands seems like someone why trying to justify his particular death. I too feel like there was some Sanderson interview or Q&A where he said there was more going on behind the scenes than was obvious from the prelude, but I can't find any trace of such a thing. It could have been my imagination, turned into a false memory at this point. The only other thing I could find was another post of mine from back in October on here saying the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstSelector Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 I agree that there was something very fishy going on when the Heralds gave up. Recent quotes from Brandon seem to imply that Talenel was continuing to uphold the Oathpact (and not someone else), while the person that we think is Talenel is in fact someone else. This is a subtle difference. Argent, the quote that was referenced was here. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted April 11, 2014 Report Share Posted April 11, 2014 the quote that was referenced was here. Thank you for posting it! I was certain I read it, yet I couldn't find it in theoryland and some WoB threads I searched when Argent asked for a link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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