A Weapon Capable of Killing Adonalsium: The Dead Metal

[Blightsong]

Introduction

With the recent Idaho signing I know that a lot of us have had our heads spinning over that 'Pre-shattering Weapon' WoB, especially in how it relates to Hoid. After listening to the related Shardcast episode I left with a few takeaways from the conversation the crew had that I wanted to share with you all. Before I get in to this, I want to warn you all that at its core, this theory is crackpot. I think I've made a lot of interesting connections but at this point we just don't have enough information on the related topics to make reasonable conclusions.

With that in mind, strap in cause this is a long one!

The Case For Aluminum

As was discussed in the Shardcast, my hypothesis is that Aluminum is the remnant of the weapon used to destroy Adonalsium. It simply makes sense when you deduce things. To defend yourself from a seemingly all powerful being who's essence was the basis of all things and who you were deeply Connected to, it seems reasonable that the first step would be to stop that being from detecting you, manipulating you, or influencing you in any way which just so happens to be the primary passive effect of Aluminum.

Having made this conclusion, lets take a step back. If the weapon used to kill Adonalsium is now expended and not in its original from, Aluminum itself cannot be the weapon and its properties may not be the same as its theoretical original form, so we're kind of missing a crucial puzzle piece. This is about as far as any of my theories pre-Idaho got, but the extra clue of how it relates to Hoid's power got me interested enough to dig deeper.

The Realmatic Effects of Aluminum

After hitting this dead end, the next step towards understanding what this illusive weapon is came in finding what other things in the Cosmere seem to share properties with Aluminum. After thinking about it for awhile, I began thinking about Allomantic Aluminum. Despite it's inert properties, it is somehow able to provide a magical, investiture related effect. Digging a little bit deeper, I remembered this WoB:

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Douglas

What benefit does an aluminum savant get? Yes, I know this would normally never happen because aluminum burns itself up. Suppose a mad scientist with a willing Mistborn test subject shoved a feeding tube down the Mistborn's throat to pump in a continuous stream of aluminum, replenishing it steadily so there's always a new unburned supply. Add another tube to pump out excess water if necessary. What would he discover? Alternatively, what would Sazed with his Shard-granted knowledge know?

Brandon Sanderson

Ha, that IS a little silly of a method. However, on the extreme end of aluminum, I have in the notes the possibility of cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other Investitures. You'd get really good at this, and maybe even be able to cleanse the body of other impurities.

Thinking this kind of sounded familiar I remembered this scene in Oathbringer:

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“There was a Voidspren in my gemheart. How?” Timbre pulsed to Resolve. “You’ve done what?” Venli hissed, stopping on the deck. Resolve again. “But how can you…” She trailed off, then hunched over, speaking more softly. “How can you keep a Voidspren captive?” Timbre pulsed to Victory within her.

I was just as stumped as Venli was until making the connection that Timbre also happened to be a Spren existentially linked to metal, it being the essence linked to Venli's assumed order. Both Timbre and Aluminum seem to be able to, as Brandon described the latter's effects "[clense] the spirit of unwanted effects of other Investitures". Seeing as how the only thing aluminum and Timbre share in common is this whole idea of metallic properties, I began thinking about what other phenomenon in the Cosmere relate to metals, and naturally I shifted my focus on Scadrial.

The Link To Godmetal

With all these new ideas and connections in my head I began thinking about how metals may be used in the defeat of a Shard-level being and immediately things started making sense. In the Mistborn series, there has been a clear theme in what is being used to combat Shards/Spiritual beings on that planet: Godmetals. While regular metals, tied to the magic, investiture, and essence of the planet, can be used to blind Shards; this seemingly Scadrial specific effect is nothing compared to a power that transcends the Metallic Arts and the resident Shardworld, Godmetals. As seen when Sazed encounters Trellium, they can directly act as a weapon against a Shard-level being, a property necessary for any weapon that has a chance at defeating Adonalsium, but there is an even more interesting example that I believe ties this whole thing together.

Something I never really thought of was how peculiar it was that Ruin had no ability to sense or interact with Atium directly, something seemingly made out of his own power. It was completely dark to him, the plot of the whole third book even revolves around how he needs it to defeat Preservation. Haven't we also seen this effect of an un-sensable metal elsewhere...

Conclusion

Looking at all these connections, it seems so natural and obvious. The exact kind of long term, hail mary twist Brandon likes to pull on us. I believe that pre-shattering, Aluminum was Adonalsium's godmetal. A piece of his essence that he couldn't find, touch, or manipulate from the spiritual realm but had power within the physical one, a power that could be stolen and manipulated against a being that encompassed all of reality as was the case for Ati. For gods sake, the title of the series where all this is taking place even alludes to a metal with magical properties. The fact that Adonalsium is now dead and shattered could explain why this hypothetical godmetal has become inert and lost its magical properties.

Afterthoughts

So this is as good an educated guess as I can make on this topic. I probably left a few loose ends lying around in the theory but I'm writing this one a bit more fast and loose than i typically do due to its nature as a pretty speculative crackpot so feel free to press me on those. I'm interested in what you all have to say, if you have any ideas drop a comment. Have a good day y'all!

[Calderis]

The main problem that I've always had with the Aluminum/Adonalsium idea is (and I've questioned whether this is actually true or not) aluminum can be Soulcast, in addition to be produced naturally and refined. 

If the Soulcasting presented in WoR is true, then I feel that it can't be.

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ninch

Could a person Soulcast more atium and lerasium if they had a bead?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Investiture messes things like that up.

source

As to the produced naturally and ability to be refined, I can accept that one. If Adonalsium were everything/everywhere then even after the investiture were split up, that godmetal being a component of matter and remaining doesn't really seem odd... But the soulcasting thing would bother me. 

[Blightsong]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The main problem that I've always had with the Aluminum/Adonalsium idea is (and I've questioned whether this is actually true or not) aluminum can be Soulcast, in addition to be produced naturally and refined. 

If the Soulcasting presented in WoR is true, then I feel that it can't be.

As to the produced naturally and ability to be refined, I can accept that one. If Adonalsium were everything/everywhere then even after the investiture were split up, that godmetal being a component of matter and remaining doesn't really seem odd... But the soulcasting thing would bother me. 

We don't know if Soulcasting even existed, much less in the same form, back before the Shattering. If my theory is correct then whatever aluminum was pre-shattering has had its properties changed, remember the weapon was somehow "used up" and all that remains is remnants.

[Andy92]

Is Dragonsteel still around post-Shattering? I don’t know much about Brandon’s thesis book he did for that. Maybe it’s possible that Adonalsium’s pre-Shattering Godmetal was Dragonsteel, and now what remains is Aluminum. 

[Blightsong]

Just now, Andy92 said:

Is Dragonsteel still around post-Shattering? I don’t know much about Brandon’s thesis book he did for that. Maybe it’s possible that Adonalsium’s pre-Shattering Godmetal was Dragonsteel, and now what remains is Aluminum. 

Tha'ts what i was alluding to with that title comment. Dragonsteel the series takes place before and up to the Shattering.

[Andy92]

4 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

Tha'ts what i was alluding to with that title comment. Dragonsteel the series takes place before and up to the Shattering.

I thought that’s what you were getting at. Just wasn’t 100% sure lol 

[+Extesian]

I've seen the aluminium theory and disliked it for reasons covered. But instead you're proposing dragonsteel is the godmetal and weapon, and aluminum is the byproduct of the breakdown of dragonsteel after the shattering? 

I always think of investiture in the EM/waveform sort of way. To use that analogy, two colliding waves can have destructive interference (crest of one hitting the trough of another will cancel each other out). 

I've always thought of aluminum is having a null waveform basically. So I've also been wondering lately if that links to the immortality point. That by using some form of 'anti-investiture' the 16 (or 17) used that to make themselves immortal by essentially suspending time in some manner, and that the same thing when applied to adonalsium broke apart the coherence of the investiture causing the shattering. (Very very loose description there).

But to apply to your idea - Investiture (of adonalsium) + anti-investiture (weapon) = null waveform metal (aluminum).

I mean that's not your point though right, because dragonsteel wouldn't be anti-investiture it would be super concentrated investiture?

I...think i lost track of my own point there. I see similarities in the way you're thinking though and I am interested in the idea of aluminum being the result of the weapon, not the weapon itself. Maybe you'll find something useful from my ramblings 

[Blightsong]

4 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I've seen the aluminium theory and disliked it for reasons covered. But instead you're proposing dragonsteel is the godmetal and weapon, and aluminum is the byproduct of the breakdown of dragonsteel after the shattering? 

I always think of investiture in the EM/waveform sort of way. To use that analogy, two colliding waves can have destructive interference (crest of one hitting the trough of another will cancel each other out). 

I've always thought of aluminum is having a null waveform basically. So I've also been wondering lately if that links to the immortality point. That by using some form of 'anti-investiture' the 16 (or 17) used that to make themselves immortal by essentially suspending time in some manner, and that the same thing when applied to adonalsium broke apart the coherence of the investiture causing the shattering. (Very very loose description there).

But to apply to your idea - Investiture (of adonalsium) + anti-investiture (weapon) = null waveform metal (aluminum).

I mean that's not your point though right, because dragonsteel wouldn't be anti-investiture it would be super concentrated investiture?

I...think i lost track of my own point there. I see similarities in the way you're thinking though and I am interested in the idea of aluminum being the result of the weapon, not the weapon itself. Maybe you'll find something useful from my ramblings 

I didn't mention Dragonsteel by name in the theory because that specifically being the Godmetal is really, really iffy but it's the best candidate. Probably because it is the only candidate. Regardless, if Adonalsium had a Godmetal, it stands to reason that, similar to how modern Godmetals are for their Shards, it would have been a blindspot for him. As he was the source of all magic, if you use magic to defeat him it's gonna have to be a power he can't control, presuming he didn't want to be defeated. If Adonalsium can't control it, no external magic could, as he was the source and essence of all magic. Seeing as how that power or weapon is expended as per WoB,  it makes sense that the remnant we know exists would now be something that the power of Adonalsium can't control or manipulate, and there seems to be literally one thing in the Cosmere besides the Beyond where that is the case.

We both have each other rambling but I hope some of this makes sense.

[Toaster Retribution]

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

The main problem that I've always had with the Aluminum/Adonalsium idea is (and I've questioned whether this is actually true or not) aluminum can be Soulcast, in addition to be produced naturally and refined. 

If the Soulcasting presented in WoR is true, then I feel that it can't be.

As to the produced naturally and ability to be refined, I can accept that one. If Adonalsium were everything/everywhere then even after the investiture were split up, that godmetal being a component of matter and remaining doesn't really seem odd... But the soulcasting thing would bother me. 

I don’t think that this has to mean that aluminum isn’t the godmetal. Aluminum is void of investiture as far as we know, and I would assume that the Shattering of Adonalsium affected the godmetal, maybe  removing the investiture somehow, since all that was connected to Adonalsium was rekeyed to the other Shards, if I recall correctly.

[Ashspren]

I like this theory, but I just have one question: where would silver fit into all of this? Both silver and aluminum are special in the Cosmere, and silver is allomatically useless but necessary on Threnody. 

[Fatikis]

10 hours ago, Blightsong said:

The Realmatic Effects of Aluminum

I was just as stumped as Venli was until making the connection that Timbre also happened to be a Spren existentially linked to metal, it being the essence linked to Venli's assumed order. Both Timbre and Aluminum seem to be able to, as Brandon described the latter's effects "[clense] the spirit of unwanted effects of other Investitures". Seeing as how the only thing aluminum and Timbre share in common is this whole idea of metallic properties, I began thinking about what other phenomenon in the Cosmere relate to metals, and naturally I shifted my focus on Scadrial.

You seem to be drawing a lot of connections without evidence. Timbre is like Aluminum? How exactly? How is Timbre cleaning Venli's spirit? She specifically did not cleanse or remove the spren. She trapped it. This shares absolutely nothing in common with Aluminum.

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The Link To Godmetal

With all these new ideas and connections in my head I began thinking about how metals may be used in the defeat of a Shard-level being and immediately things started making sense. In the Mistborn series, there has been a clear theme in what is being used to combat Shards/Spiritual beings on that planet: Godmetals. While regular metals, tied to the magic, investiture, and essence of the planet, can be used to blind Shards; this seemingly Scadrial specific effect is nothing compared to a power that transcends the Metallic Arts and the resident Shardworld, Godmetals. As seen when Sazed encounters Trellium, they can directly act as a weapon against a Shard-level being, a property necessary for any weapon that has a chance at defeating Adonalsium, but there is an even more interesting example that I believe ties this whole thing together.

Something I never really thought of was how peculiar it was that Ruin had no ability to sense or interact with Atium directly, something seemingly made out of his own power. It was completely dark to him, the plot of the whole third book even revolves around how he needs it to defeat Preservation. Haven't we also seen this effect of an un-sensable metal elsewhere...

Aluminum is a naturally occurring metal. A real metal. Aluminum is part of the base 16 allomantic metals. If it was a Godmetal we are suddenly down to 15 allomantic metals AND aluminum could be alloyed to any of the other allomantic metals. Trellium had specks of red implying another shards investiture and not aluminum.

Quote

Conclusion

Looking at all these connections, it seems so natural and obvious. The exact kind of long term, hail mary twist Brandon likes to pull on us. I believe that pre-shattering, Aluminum was Adonalsium's godmetal. A piece of his essence that he couldn't find, touch, or manipulate from the spiritual realm but had power within the physical one, a power that could be stolen and manipulated against a being that encompassed all of reality as was the case for Ati. For gods sake, the title of the series where all this is taking place even alludes to a metal with magical properties. The fact that Adonalsium is now dead and shattered could explain why this hypothetical godmetal has become inert and lost its magical properties.

It doesn't seem obvious. In fact it seems extremely unlikely. With Adonalsium dead the metal would no longer naturally form. If aluminum were Adon's Godmetal it would not exist on Scadrial ever. You can also soulcast metal into aluminum. Which pretty much instantly destroy's this theory.
 

 

[Blightsong]

2 hours ago, Fatikis said:

She specifically did not cleanse or remove the spren.

This is definist fallacy, cleansing does not neccesarily mean physical removal. The Voidspren had attached itself to Venli's very soul. Whatever Timbre did broke it's grip on Venli's soul but not all Connection, as we can see it still stuck around. This is pretty much exactly what we see with aluminum Allomancy, the effects of any kinetic Investiture are negated but it's not like it's gonna "clense" away the Allomantic Connections, it's just not destructive like that. I mean the only other Spren we've seen physically trapped, having its kinetic Investiture subdued, on screen is Nightblood with his sheathe. I agree it's a stretch but the similarities are there and there aren't contradictions in the text as you suggest.

2 hours ago, Fatikis said:

Aluminum is a naturally occurring metal. A real metal. Aluminum is part of the base 16 allomantic metals. If it was a Godmetal we are suddenly down to 15 allomantic metals AND aluminum could be alloyed to any of the other allomantic metals. Trellium had specks of red implying another shards investiture and not aluminum.

I don't think it is a Godmetal. I think it was a Godmetal. Obviously before Allomancy or Trellium ever even existed. Read the below WoB I've mentioned in this thread.

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imriel452

My request for Brandon  was "for information on the current status of the weapon that was used to kill Adonalsium, including the current possessor".

Brandon Sanderson

The weapon was expended, and no longer exists in its original form.

 

[Fatikis]

15 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

This is definist fallacy, cleansing does not neccesarily mean physical removal

Actually by the definition of cleanse it does mean physical removal. In the cosmere it would mean cleanse on every level physical, cognitive, and spiritual.
 

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The Voidspren had attached itself to Venli's very soul. Whatever Timbre did broke it's grip on Venli's soul but not all Connection, as we can see it still stuck around. 

So you are saying it didn't break the attachment on Venli's soul. It limited the connection. Which is not cleansing.

Quote

This is pretty much exactly what we see with aluminum Allomancy, the effects of any kinetic Investiture are negated but it's not like it's gonna "clense" away the Allomantic Connections, it's just not destructive like that. 

It actually does not share any of the same properties of aluminum allomancy which wipes investiture similar to the fashion of a Larkin. It so far has not touched connection in anyway. Arguably on an extreme level it may cleanse you on a spiritual level which could manipulate connection.

Which by the way is specifically not what Timbre has done which is essentially imprisoning the spren and not cleansing.
 

Quote

I mean the only other Spren we've seen physically trapped, having its kinetic Investiture subdued, on screen is Nightblood with his sheathe. I agree it's a stretch but the similarities are there and there aren't contradictions in the text as you suggest.

The connections you are making between aluminum and Timbre are beyond absurd. Timbre is literal investiture overpowering other forms of investiture. The fact investiture can interact with other investiture does not mean it shares properties of aluminum.

All of this by the way is irrelevant to the fact that even if Timbre is running on the same principals of aluminum (Which she clearly is not.) it does not in anyway support Adonalsium's godmetal being aluminum.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Fatikis

[Juanaton]

1 hour ago, Fatikis said:

Actually by the definition of cleanse it does mean physical removal. In the cosmere it would mean cleanse on every level physical, cognitive, and spiritual.
 

So you are saying it didn't break the attachment on Venli's soul. It limited the connection. Which is not cleansing.

It actually does not share any of the same properties of aluminum allomancy which wipes investiture similar to the fashion of a Larkin. It so far has not touched connection in anyway. Arguably on an extreme level it may cleanse you on a spiritual level which could manipulate connection.

Which by the way is specifically not what Timbre has done which is essentially imprisoning the spren and not cleansing.
 

The connections you are making between aluminum and Timbre are beyond absurd. Timbre is literal investiture overpowering other forms of investiture. The fact investiture can interact with other investiture does not mean it shares properties of aluminum.

All of this by the way is irrelevant to the fact that even if Timbre is running on the same principals of aluminum (Which she clearly is not.) it does not in anyway support Adonalsium's godmetal being aluminum.

I’m not taking a side in this argument, but I would like to point out the WoB is that aluminum can cleanse UNWANTED effects of other investiture. Which seems to imply that the desired effects would remain and not be cleansed. Want to have a void spren trapped so you can keep a Regal form but don’t want to be opened up to Odium’s control? Cleanse yourself carefully with some aluminum. Possibly.

[Ripheus23]

I read that topaz is technically some form of aluminum, or based on aluminum, or whatever. As a polestone it is connected to Regrowth and the Surge of Progression.

So I could see some tie-in with Hoid-as-Topaz, the First Gem, etc. and Adonalsium being killed (although the image I'm getting in my head is of using healing magic to harm the undead in typical fantasy stories ).

[Ashspren]

Hm... if aluminum gets rid of unwanted effects, and it erases your allomantic reserves... 

I guess that comes into question. What deems something as “unwanted”? I don’t know if this is really all that important to the theory, but just something I was thinking about. 

Edited August 19, 2018 by Ashspren

[MountainKing]

1 hour ago, Ashspren said:

Hm... if aluminum gets rid of unwanted effects, and it erases your allomantic reserves... 

I guess that comes into question. What deems something as “unwanted”? I don’t know if this is really all that important to the theory, but just something I was thinking about. 

Brandon said a savant could cleanse unwanted effects, if your not a aluminum savant than you can clear nothing or everything.