The Fused aren't Voidbinding

[Ripheus23]

13 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Seems to me all void-terms are purposefully misleading.

Maybe the very name is deceptive. How does one become bound to/by a void? A void is a gap between chunks of matter/objects/w/e. A void is more like an anti-binding, even.

[Yata]

6 hours ago, Wreith said:

With regard to the issues with Gems being the focus of Roshar's magic while seeming to just be energy storage:
is it possible that Bonded Radiants begin developing Gemhearts?

Would explain their inherent ability to store stormlight and if the gemheart grows with each oath, explains the increase in power.

This was already proposed and if I don't remember wrong someone asked that to Brandon receiving a RAFO.

To me it's unlikely as if the Radiants had a gemheart and therefore a method of Stormlight storage...they will be able to hold the light much more than they seems capable of.

In my own opinion, the Plate is the tool they used to store Stormlight better mitigating the leakage

[Wreith]

it does appear that got a straight answer later

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/93/#e2685

no

[Jofwu]

The "Sja-anat and Voidbinding" Shardcast was a pretty good breakdown on all of this, I think.

I've heard a lot of speculation on Voidbinding, but I'm also really curious how the Fused are Surgebinding. What's the mechanics there? I'm not sure how I feel about the idea that Odium can just... grant that power to the Fused. 

[Yata]

5 hours ago, Jofwu said:

The "Sja-anat and Voidbinding" Shardcast was a pretty good breakdown on all of this, I think.

I've heard a lot of speculation on Voidbinding, but I'm also really curious how the Fused are Surgebinding. What's the mechanics there? I'm not sure how I feel about the idea that Odium can just... grant that power to the Fused. 

Why not ? If you could manipulate a Spiritiweb in a fine way, you could achieve almost everything.

In the specific, I think Odium exploited the Fabrial magic system to achieve that with the Fused, as I saw them as living Surge-Fabrial.... But I don't see any problem with a Shard messing with someone Spiritiweb to achieve magic in those.

By the way we don't even know if the Fused are the first to obtain Surgebinding or if the Heralds predate them in this

Edited August 24, 2018 by Yata
Mistyped anything instead of everything

[Jofwu]

I guess it feels a little unclear to me what that looks like. The idea that Odium just hands out that kind of magic as needed feels like a cop out to me, if that's all it is. And it doesn't entirely feel consistent. There's got to be SOME limitation, right? Why bother with "orders" and instead just give every Surge to all of them? Why make them limited in ways that Knights Radiant aren't? Why Surgebinding and not... any other form of magic. You just run into all kinds of questions like this if it's just... Odium toying with spiritwebs however he feels like it. Shards are obviously very powerful of course, but there's at least got to be a cost or some kind of external, practical limitations. What are those?

Relating them to fabrials is interesting. That would maybe explain why their Surges look slightly different from Knights Radiant. But if we're talking about Odium exploiting an existing system (which, I agree is more of what it looks like) then what's actually going on there? How is he exploiting it? How does it work? That's what I'm asking.

[Calderis]

@Jofwu like @Yata, I think that the Fused, and actually all singer forms, act like organic fabrials, largely because of this from Eshonai's Prologue.

Quote

“Look closely,” King Gavilar said. “Look deep into it. Can you see what’s moving inside? It’s a spren. That is how the device works.”
Captive like in a gemheart, she thought, attuning Awe. They’ve built devices that mimic how we apply the forms? The humans did so much with their limitations!

It makes sense to me in that context how the Fused are only seemingly granted one surge. 

The surge pairs are natural to Roshar. 

Quote

Khyrindor (paraphrased)

Do the Honorblades reflect the natural pairing of Surges, or did Honor decide which Surge pair to put in each Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The pairs are natural to Roshar in the same way as the metals on Scadrial.

source

But fabrials that we've seen are only able to manipulate surges on one highly specific manner. 

So I think the Fused are basically an organic fabrial allowing the manipulation of a single surge, but more varied then the constructed fabrials because they have, unlike in a mechanical device, an inbuilt mind to guide the Investiture. 

Why they are set to the specific surges that they are, and why that varies I don't have any idea for, but I'm hoping we'll get more in the future. 

[MountainKing]

Fabrials work by channeling investiture through splinters at certain frequencies at multiple points. Dawnsingers have gen hearts and they possess bodies by first entering the gemhart and then taking over.

[Yata]

Yeah Cal, I assume Fused are 

Organic Surge-Fabrial (at least the ones we saw... nothing prevent for some of them to be Voidbinding-Fabrial instead, maybe the ones still sleeping) so they access the Surges in a mechanical way and they are more restricted in the same way Fabrials are (very curious to see a Soulcaster Fused) but for their great experience in the power usage...they are Savant in that and they pushed their power to the limit allowed to them.

 

If I am right, the Transformation Fused will need the right polestone to soulcast regardless of their skill (also if they could probably craft very elaborate stuffs with the Surge) and maybe they could soulcast only some of the essences (because I am not sure if Fabrials attuned to all the Essences exist or Jasnah's one made believe they exist).

[Jofwu]

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

Why they are set to the specific surges that they are, and why that varies I don't have any idea for, but I'm hoping we'll get more in the future.

That's the thing I'm saying would be interesting to know more about. The fact that they can isn't weird and doesn't bother me. I'm just saying I want to know why/how it works that way. What links Bob the Fused to this or that Surge, and why is that Surge expressed the way it is.

[Ripheus23]

Maybe Voidbinding isn't Odium's magic system. Why are there supposed to be 10 levels of Voidbinding if 9 is Odium's number? I think that Voidbinding is perhaps the magic of the Dawnshards specifically. The Dawnshards might be like sa'angreal for the Surges, so related to the Surges, but not identical to their usage. So activating them might require, so to speak, an entire magic system of its own, even if this is used to fuel Surgebinding?

[Calderis]

23 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Maybe Voidbinding isn't Odium's magic system. Why are there supposed to be 10 levels of Voidbinding if 9 is Odium's number?

Because it's a magic system tied to Roshar, and the numbers are tied to the planets, not the Shards themselves. 

[Ripheus23]

That means Voidbinding would have to do with Odium Investing in Roshar and not Braize, then? 

[ScavellTane]

Voidbinding = Cultivations system(?)

[Confused]

I dissent. IMO, the Fused do Voidbind. Voidbinding uses both different fuel and different innate Investiture than Surgebinding. Both Investitures are Odium’s – it’s not a Surgebinding “hack.” Voidlight provides the fuel. and, as Cognitive Shadows, the Fused’s mind imprints on Odium’s Investiture, with a direct Connection to Odium. Here’s my reasoning:

Initiation

I think mortals gain Odium’s power when he “takes their pain” – Odium’s magic breaks the Connections to people that cause a mortal to feel guilt, shame, and responsibility. Odium’s Investiture fills the emotional Void the broken Connections leave, like spren fill other cracks in a broken soul. Metaphorically, Brandon seems to say an empty soul will fill with hate.

Differences from Surgebinding

Brandon says Shards differ only in “the means of getting power,” “the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do.” IOW, every magic system anywhere can theoretically grant the exact same abilities as every other magic system. Differences among systems arise from their Shard’s intent/mandate/expression, the planet, and the local population’s biology and culture. That suggests fewer differences when systems share a planet.

Kaladin shifts speed and direction faster than the Fused because he does Surgebind. He can layer bindings to lash multiple G-force vectors. The Fused gain control over gravity (and other fundamental forces) by using an Investiture that IMO doesn’t bond. Voidbinding must rely on some other means of changing gravity. IOW, the Fuseds’ slower movements come from BOTH their magic system AND their different fuel.

The “Surges”

The fact Rosharans call Roshar’s fundamental forces “Surges” doesn’t make manipulation of those fundamental forces “Surgebinding.” Any Rosharan magic system – indeed, any magic system anywhere – will manipulate the same cosmere fundamental forces by whatever name locals call them.

The Fused manifest only one ability because they don’t rely on Radiant spren, the only known Rosharan means of granting a magic user two abilities. Because Brandon says KR orders are “a combination of two of the ‘smaller’ magic systems in this world,” I believe each Radiant spren is a combination of two lesser spren. Odium, OTOH, is incapable of binding spren together – he can only corrupt spren.

Fabrials

The Fused are NOT “organic fabrials.” They don’t hold spren, which fabrials require. They substitute for gemheart spren when they possess a Singer’s body: Hariel tells Venli, “Unlike the witless Voidspren you bonded—which resides in your gemheart—my soul cannot share its dwelling.” (OB, Interlude I-6, Kindle p. 577.)

Voidlight

The Fused used Voidlight before both the False Desolation and the Everstorm. That suggests Voidlight may be an internal Investiture Odium feeds to the Fused through his Connection with them. Voidlight doesn’t automatically heal because its nature breaks Connections rather than re-binds them. Stormlight binds, Voidlight breaks – mirroring the difference between Honor and Odium.

Comparison with Metallic Arts

On 8/12/2018 at 2:17 PM, Calderis said:

For Voidbinding to be a separate system, I believe that it's going to be at least as different functionally to Surgebinding as Allomancy and Feruchemy. Manipulating the same surges, in a different manner.

Just because Scadrial’s magic systems “differ functionally” doesn’t mean Rosharan magic systems need to. Shard-created Scadrial is unique. Ruin and Preservation are much more Invested there, with far greater influence, than are other Shards on their Shardworlds. Besides, I think I’ve shown Voidbinding IS “Manipulating the same surges, in a different manner.”

FWIW, I also don’t think the Scadrian systems “use metal in drastically different ways.” Metal always acts the same way, as a magic system Focus:

- Metal provides Allomancers a pathway to Preservation’s power and Focuses the power before it Invests the Allomancer.

- Brandon says end-neutral Feruchemy also relies on a “facilitating power” from outside the Feruchemical gene. I believe metalminds’ metals are Focuses for drawing this power directly from Ruin and Preservation. This “facilitating power” fuels the Feruchemical gene’s magical effects.

- I also think Ruin directly fuels Hemalurgy. Spiking (the “theft”) is an Intended act of entropy. IMO, that act of entropy draws Ruin’s power, which the metal spike then Focuses. Ruin’s Focused power enables the spike to transfer abilities.

Glys and Renarin

In the first Argent WoB, Brandon says Renarin is “close” to Voidbinding, but isn’t. I think Renarin is not Voidbinding only because he uses Stormlight as fuel rather than Voidlight. Glys’ Illumination-binding does seem to differ from a normal Truthwatcher spren’s. Unfortunately, we haven’t yet seen a normal spren use Illumination and can’t compare.

Renarin and Glys are a true Surgebinding “hack” – a corrupted spren using Stormlight to Voidbind. That suggests pure Odium Fused who use Voidlight for their magic do not “hack” Surgebinding.

Conclusion

Voidbinding involves a different innate Investiture and fuel than Surgebinding. The magic systems initiate differently, and spren are not part of Voidbinding. Manipulating the planet’s same fundamental forces doesn’t turn Voidbinding into hacked Surgebinding. While it may be too early in SLA to conclude either way, IMO there’s strong reason to think the Fused do Voidbind. If not them, and not the Unmade, then who?

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Confused said:

Kaladin shifts speed and direction faster than the Fused because he does Surgebind. He can layer bindings to lash multiple G-force vectors. The Fused gain control over gravity (and other fundamental forces) by using an Investiture that IMO doesn’t bond. Voidbinding must rely on some other means of changing gravity. IOW, the Fuseds’ slower movements come from BOTH their magic system AND their different fuel.

Per Brandon himself, this is due to the fuel. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

The Fused *inaudible* like the Lashings can be a lot faster than Kaladin are? Is because <inaudible> than the Radiants?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Kaladin can go faster, but they are faster over a large span. What's going on with the Fused is... the way their investiture works, it doesn't leak and they are able to use it for much longer periods of time. But they don't have access to the number of times that Kaladin can Lash himself directions and things like this, and the speed with which he can pick up speed. So in the short Kaladin is favored, in the long they're favored.

source

 

4 minutes ago, Confused said:

The Fused manifest only one ability because they don’t rely on Radiant spren, the only known Rosharan means of granting a magic user two abilities.

You exclude the Honorblades, which use natural pairings of the surges. 

Quote

Khyrindor (paraphrased)

Do the Honorblades reflect the natural pairing of Surges, or did Honor decide which Surge pair to put in each Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The pairs are natural to Roshar in the same way as the metals on Scadrial.

source

 

5 minutes ago, Confused said:

Because Brandon says KR orders are “a combination of two of the ‘smaller’ magic systems in this world,” I believe each Radiant spren is a combination of two lesser spren. Odium, OTOH, is incapable of binding spren together – he can only corrupt spren.

The "smaller magic systems" is in reference to this. 

Quote

Rhandric

How many magic systems are there on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on your definition. Is Windrunning its own magic system, or is it a division of a larger magic system? Are the ten different Surges each their own magic system, or...it's really how...

-snip-

source

Brandon has said that Roshar has "three or thirty magic systems, depending in how you count them." which would make each order a combination of two. I don't see what that has to do with the lesser spren. 

13 minutes ago, Confused said:

The Fused are NOT “organic fabrials.” They don’t hold spren, which fabrials require. They substitute for gemheart spren when they possess a Singer’s body: Hariel tells Venli, “Unlike the witless Voidspren you bonded—which resides in your gemheart—my soul cannot share its dwelling.” (OB, Interlude I-6, Kindle p. 577.)

Like I said, I think the singer forms are generally organic fabrials, and the Fused exploit this to access the body. Yet another hack. 

14 minutes ago, Confused said:

The Fused used Voidlight before both the False Desolation and the Everstorm. That suggests Voidlight may be an internal Investiture Odium feeds to the Fused through his Connection with them. Voidlight doesn’t automatically heal because its nature breaks Connections rather than re-binds them. Stormlight binds, Voidlight breaks – mirroring the difference between Honor and Odium.

What evidence do we have of Voidlight "breaking" anything? It doesn't leak, which seems to show it bonding more tightly to the thing it invests. 

20 minutes ago, Confused said:

FWIW, I also don’t think the Scadrian systems “use metal in drastically different ways.” Metal always acts the same way, as a magic system Focus:

Everything that follows this statement about the Metallic Arts serves to reinforce what I've said. Three systems, one focus, all functionally different. 

22 minutes ago, Confused said:

(bad placement, please ignore) 

16 minutes ago, Confused said:

Just because Scadrial’s magic systems “differ functionally” doesn’t mean Rosharan magic systems need to. Shard-created Scadrial is unique. Ruin and Preservation are much more Invested there, with far greater influence, than are other Shards on their Shardworlds. Besides, I think I’ve shown Voidbinding IS “Manipulating the same surges, in a different manner.”

I disagree wholeheartedly. A different magic system is a different magic system. I don't think they are manipulating the same surges differently. I think they're doing the exact same things other than altered limitations from the fuel source. The only different manifestation we've been shown is Renarin's Illumination, and his complete inability to create illusions. 

23 minutes ago, Confused said:

In the first Argent WoB, Brandon says Renarin is “close” to Voidbinding, but isn’t.

That is not what is said. Let's break that WoB up into the two questions asked. 

Quote

Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen?  

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. 

 

If Argent had ended the question here, these conversations wouldn't be progressing the way they are. Brandon says right there that Renarin is using Stormlight to fuel abilities different than we've seen. 

It then progresses to

Quote

Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Is that what voidbinding is? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. 

source

Showing that this is not the way voidbinding typically functions. 

27 minutes ago, Confused said:

Voidbinding involves a different innate Investiture and fuel than Surgebinding. The magic systems initiate differently, and spren are not part of Voidbinding. Manipulating the planet’s same fundamental forces doesn’t turn Voidbinding into hacked Surgebinding. While it may be too early in SLA to conclude either way, IMO there’s strong reason to think the Fused do Voidbind. If not them, and not the Unmade, then who?

I don't have answers to any of the questions here, and haven't attempted to supply any. I don't know what Voidbinding is, because Renarin is the only thing we've seen of it and he is an aberration from how it should occur. I'm not attempting to say what voidbinding is. Just that we haven't seen it in its normal form yet. 

[LiquidBlue]

Has anyone commented on the terminology that Khriss used? She referred to 10 "levels" of voidbinding. It is not conclusive, but that suggests that there is some sort of hierarchy in voidbinding, perhaps similar to the heightenings. 

 

[Confused]

@Calderis, Kaladin’s speed and direction shifts are MORE than just the fuel, as the WoB itself says:

Quote

But they don't have access to the number of times that Kaladin can Lash himself directions and things like this, and the speed with which he can pick up speed.

Source.

Fuel does not give or prevent “access” to multiple lashings. Maybe speed is arguable (Stormlight is gasoline to Voidlight’s diesel), though I think multiple lashings also cause Kaladin’s superior acceleration. Fuel, however, should not improve Kaladin’s ability to change direction.

I read this to mean the Fused lack Kaladin’s lashing abilities – a function of the magic system itself. Kaladin’s ability to lash over and over and over is IMO the reason for his better short-term speed and direction-changing. The Fused are NOT “doing the exact same things other than altered limitations from the fuel source.”

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

You exclude the Honorblades, which use natural pairings of the surges. 

Oops! You got me! My memory leaks away like Stormlight…

I’m unsure what “natural pairings” have to do with any of this, though. If the Fused did “hack” Surgebinding, then maybe they should also benefit from these “natural pairings” and manifest two abilities.

FWIW, I think these pairings relate to Roshar’s essences: earth, fire, water, air and “aether” (or life). I explain why in this post. Here’s a quote:

On 5/9/2016 at 1:09 PM, Confused said:

Brandon says the sequence of Surges (and hence KR Orders) around the Round Table [the Almighty's "double-eye"] mirror Roshar’s natural forces; their sequence is neither accidental nor arbitrary. This is consistent with the foregoing classification of essences and the following quote from the WoR Chapter 35 Epigraph: the placement of each Nahel bond “was related to the bonds that drive Roshar itself, ten Surges, named in turn and two for each order.”

On "smaller magic systems":

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

Brandon has said that Roshar has "three or thirty magic systems, depending in how you count them." which would make each order a combination of two. I don't see what that has to do with the lesser spren. 

As your cited (and later in time) WoB says, Roshar only has three “major” magic systems – Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and fabrials. Brandon acknowledges the Old Magic as “it’s own weird thing,” and Khriss suggests in the SLA Ars Arcanum that there may be another, more “esoteric” system. “Thirty magic systems” refers to the number of magical abilities available to Rosharans – essentially, three different flavors of the same ten abilities. I do wonder how he counts fabrials as having only ten abilities, but whatever…

Spren power two of the three “major” systems. Because Roshar’s “natural” sentient spren are each capable of manifesting a single Surge, I theorize Radiant spren combine two lesser spren that each give one ability. For example, Highspren combine Windspren and Flamespren (or Abrasionspren), or something similar. I’ve always assumed the Nightwatcher did this, since the Shards weren’t involved, and she has the capacity to transform Cognitive Investiture like spren.

I can easily imagine this not being the case, but that’s my working assumption until we see otherwise.

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

Like I said, I think the singer forms are generally organic fabrials, and the Fused exploit this to access the body. Yet another hack. 

Not a big deal, but this seems backwards. Spren bonding and its lifecycle changes are natural and predate the Shattering and Roshar’s major magic systems. IOW, fabrials are mechanical Surgebinders and Voidbinders, not the other way around. By the same logic, I suppose you could call Allomancers “organic medallions.”

I agree Odium exploits Singer physiology to reincarnate the Fused. I disagree such possession limits Fused magic to Surgebinding (“Yet another hack”). Singers can’t naturally Surgebind. Why would Odium restrict the Fused to inferior “hacked” Surgebinding when he can grant them Voidbinding?

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

That is not what is said.

I think I summarized the Argent WoBs accurately. I said Renarin uses Stormlight to fuel non-Truthwatcher Illumination-binding. When Argent asks whether Renarin is Voidbinding, Brandon says, “No, but close.”

@LiquidBlue, I also have wondered about this. Voidbinding might be hierarchical, which is consistent with how Odium and the Fused behave, but who knows?

This is my “prime” post – number 373, a prime number that's the sum of five consecutive prime numbers (67, 71, 73, 79, and 83). Pretty cool!

Edited August 31, 2018 by Confused

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

13 minutes ago, Confused said:

This is my “prime” post – number 373, a prime number that's the sum of five consecutive prime numbers (67, 71, 73, 79, and 83). Pretty cool!

It's also symmetrical, you heretic! [reports Confused to Vorin Church for blasphemy] 

[Spoolofwhool]

6 hours ago, LiquidBlue said:

Has anyone commented on the terminology that Khriss used? She referred to 10 "levels" of voidbinding. It is not conclusive, but that suggests that there is some sort of hierarchy in voidbinding, perhaps similar to the heightenings. 

 

I think it's just referencing ten different types, like the the different variations of surgebinding.

[ScavellTane]

5 hours ago, Confused said:

@Calderis, Kaladin’s speed and direction shifts are MORE than just the fuel, as the WoB itself says:

Fuel does not give or prevent “access” to multiple lashings. Maybe speed is arguable (Stormlight is gasoline to Voidlight’s diesel), though I think multiple lashings also cause Kaladin’s superior acceleration. Fuel, however, should not improve Kaladin’s ability to change direction.

I read this to mean the Fused lack Kaladin’s lashing abilities – a function of the magic system itself. Kaladin’s ability to lash over and over and over is IMO the reason for his better short-term speed and direction-changing. The Fused are NOT “doing the exact same things other than altered limitations from the fuel source.”

I figured that Windrunners have acces to better acceleration because of Adhesion. Kaladins abrupt direction change is because he controls direction with Adhesion+Gravitation like using the WASD keys on a keyboard, but the Fused uses an analog stick instead.

[Calderis]

Voidlight, like Stormlight, should be a form of gaseous investiture, as is breath. 

Quote

Questioner

I know that there's three sorts of forms that magic presents itself in, the liquid and the solid and air. What would Breath be?

Brandon Sanderson

Breath is definitely like mist, it is in the form of the air.

Questioner

And is Stormlight the same?

Brandon Sanderson

Stormlight is the same.

source

I think that Voidlight is in a middle ground between Stormlight and breath. 

Breath also does not heal wounds. It does nothing unless, not only is it pushed to do something, but unless the proper command is given. 

I think that the only reason the Fused are functioning differently is because of the way that Voidlight behaves. It's not that they aren't able to lash as many times as Kaladin, it's that they can't lash as many times at once. The book says the they both accelerate and decelerate at a slower rate than Kal and Szeth. I think they're only able to add/remove one lashing at a time. 

Once they do place a lashing, they are more efficient, they loso no investiture to leakage... But the impetus of momentum is something they have to fight in order to change speed/direction. 

The Voidlight must be forced to act, and once it is, it wants to continue doing exactly what it's doing.

A middle ground between the action of stormlight and the near permanence of breath with advantages and drawbacks similar to both. 

[ScavellTane]

I think its because the Fused is only able to manipulate that one 'base' gravitational pull of the planet, while Kaladin can have additional 'pulls', no matter the direction.

Edited August 31, 2018 by ScavellTane