The Nature of Radiantspren and Their Relationship to Knight Radiant Orders

[Confused]

Two WoBs from late 2010 plus an April 2016 WoB provide insight into the relationship between spren and the Knight Radiant (“KR”) Orders. I haven’t seen this discussed anywhere, so I thought I’d take a crack at it. As always, these are MY interpretations of the WoBs.

SUMMARY

1. I think Radiantspren are made from two “lesser” spren, each of which Focuses a single power. I speculate a “lesser” spren is a sentient, pre-Shattering spren like gravityspren, firespren and lifespren.

2. IMO, the interaction of an appropriate spren and a “concept or an ideal mixed with an essence” is what defines the KR Orders and determines their placement around the KR “Round Table” (what I call the KR chart at the front of WoK…the KR are Knights, after all).I believe the “concepts/ideals” come from Honor.

3. I think each KR Order’s Secondary Divine Attribute determines that Order’s intrinsic “third” power, the one that’s “of their own.” These include Windrunner squires (“Leadership”) and Lightweaver mnemonic abilities (“Honesty”).

4. “Concepts/ideals” change over time, as human perceptions and ideas change. I believe Surgebinders may have evolved with these changes. This may be the reason Nohadon wrote the in-world Way of Kings – to forever fix his own concepts/ideals of the KR.

RELEVANT WOBS

Here are the three WoBs I rely on:

From October 15, 2010 17th Shard Interview (excerpted, emphasis added):

Quote

There were 10 orders of Knights Radiant. Each order was based on a combination of two of the "smaller" magic systems in this world, so to speak. You combine two of them together and they each had something kind of "their own". So if you look at the map in the front of the magic system and you mark circles that include one large circle and two of the smaller circles in between, you can find the 10 orders right on there. The mini circles are the powers and the big circles represent the orders and the essences and things like that. So one big circle, two little circles equals an order of Knights Radiant.

From December 25, 2010 Stormblessed.com Interview (excerpted, emphasis added):

Quote

Remember that to get an order of the Knights Radiant you take two of the small glyphs and one of the large glyphs. The large glyph represents a concept or an ideal mixed with an essence, what they call the elements of this world, with two magics attached to it. You have seen the Windrunners, which is the first, top-right glyph, mixed with the two Surges—the forces in this world—attached to it. So you've seen pressure and gravitation as mixed together to form a Windrunner. You have seen one of the other Surges, which is Soulcasting—Transformation—though which other Surges that mixes with to form orders of the Knights Radiant I am not specifically going to say at this time.

From April 23, 2016 JordanCon Report, excerpted, emphasis added):

Quote

The general fundamental rules that create spren are Cosmere-wide. Spren are pieces of Investiture, usually pieces of Investiture that come straight from one of the Shards of Adonalsium, split off in some way, that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own. The power develops personality and comes alive, so to speak. And this can happen…in any place where there is Investiture. So it could happen on any planet in the Cosmere with significant amounts of free Investiture.

ANALYSIS

Spren Combinations

I think the reference to “two of the ‘smaller’ magic systems” in the October 2010 WoB means that Radiantspren are a combination of two of the “lesser” spren. Each pre-Shattering spren IMO is the Focus for a different power. That's why Radiantspren can Focus two powers.

Some posters speculate that honorspren are an evolved form of windspren, and cryptics are an evolved form of creationspren. I think windspren and creationspren have already" evolved" from Adonalsium spren with an infusion of Cultivation's Investiture. The difference between these spren and honorspren and cryptics, IMO, is Honor's Nahel bond. IOW, an honorspren is a windspren bound by the Stormfather to a KR, and a cryptic is a bonded creationspren.

KR Order “Concept/Ideals”: Primary and Secondary “Divine Attributes”

The 2016 WoB defines spren as “pieces of Investiture…that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about…or interacting with the power…take on a life of its own.” Power leaks into the Cognitive Realm to Invest the ideas there. 

IMO, each Radiantspren represents the power that Invests the idea of their “Primary Divine Attribute.” These Attributes are set forth in the WoK and WoR Ars Arcana charts. In the Meaning of Primary and Secondary Attributes?, I assert Primary Attributes attract the spren to a KR, and Secondary Attributes are “how that person behaves once the Nahel bond is in place.” IOW, spren seek only the Primary Attribute in a KR to decide whether to bond with them.

KRs’ Secondary Attributes may be the “something…of their own” peculiar to each Order. Windrunners’ Secondary Attribute of “Leadership” is why they command more squires than other Orders. Lightweavers’ Secondary Attribute of “Honesty” causes their mnemonic abilities – an accurate (“honest”) memory. Skybreakers’ Secondary Attribute of “Confidence” gives them their “almost divine skill” to divide “the innocent from the guilty.” ( Chapters 55, 54 Epigraphs.)

KR Order “Essences”

Brandon says the “concept/ideal” is “mixed with an essence.” I speculate that the “essences” listed in the WoK/WoR Ars Arcana charts are the same ones the glyphs in the Round Table represent.

These “essences” are “what they call the elements of this world.” (December 2010 WoB, quoted above.) I presume “they” refers to the “philosophers from ancient days, who created those tables.”  I speculate those “philosophers” were Vorin, although that's uncertain. Khriss created these charts based on Nazh’s input. Jasnah tells us the Vorins destroyed or manipulated pre-Vorin writing. I suggest Khriss/Nazh have no source for their information other than Vorin texts.

As Nyali and Skaa have noted, the “essences” on this chart seem mostly to align with earth’s “classical” elements of earth, fire, water and air. “Mostly” because two of the essences do not – the “life” or “aether” (“divine”?) essences associated with the Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers.

Thus, the “air” essences align with Windrunners and Skybreakers, who can “fly” by manipulating the Gravitation Surge. The “fire” essences align with Skybreakers and Releasors, who share the Abrasion Surge. The “water” essences align with Lightweavers and Elsecallers, who share the Transformation Surge (presumably because water is “fluid”). The “earth” essences align with Willshapers and Stonewards, who share the Cohesion Surge (presumably because earth coheres into various solid states).

The other two Orders, Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers, align with the “life” or “aether” essences. Their specific Surges seem less significant than their “divine” functions: bonding and foreseeing the future. All life requires bonding, and the growth (“cultivation”) of life requires foresight.

Brandon says the sequence of Surges (and hence KR Orders) around the Round Table mirror Roshar’s natural forces; their sequence is neither accidental nor arbitrary. This is consistent with the foregoing classification of essences and the following quote from the WoR Chapter 35 Epigraph: the placement of each Nahel bond “was related to the bonds that drive Roshar itself, ten Surges, named in turn and two for each order.”

The History of Surgebinders – Changes Over Time

Concepts and ideas change over time. Thought is not static. Brandon describes the interaction of thought and power at the Madison OdysseyCon (emphasis added):

Quote

Q: Were the oaths of the Knights Radiant consciously chosen, or did they happen naturally.

A: This is one of those vague ones in that yes and no. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces, but the spren are sentient, so I would say it's a little more by instinct than not. For example, two Knights Radiant in the same order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same…

This WoB highlights the circular nature of the interaction. Spren come from our perceptions, but the KR oaths come from the spren. What would have happened if humans first perceived Surgebinders as “super” men and women unbound to any rules but their own? Would the spren who emulated the Honorblades have changed to be consistent with this perception?

Perhaps that’s why Ishar immediately “caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.” (WoR Chapter 42 Epigraph). This quote suggests that Ishar created the Orders, or at least their predecessors.

But we don’t know what “precepts and laws” he obligated Surgebinders to follow. We also don’t know how accurate this in-world Words of Radiance statement is or whether this in-world book was written before or after Nohadon’s in-world Way of Kings and was therefore influenced by it. It’s possible there WAS no “organization” or bonding to “precepts and laws” before Nohadon, and the in-world Words of Radiance is simply wrong.

We do know that Nohadon thought that “not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.” We also know that Surgebinders fought each other during his time. The fact that Surgebinders would seek prominence over one other and fight to achieve it strongly suggests the in-world Words of Radiance author may have been wrong about what Ishar did.

Nohadon’s book sought to change that. His parables caused perceptions of Surgebinders to change and the KR to form. Radiantspren changed to accommodate these new perceptions: oaths arose to ensure the incremental accretion of both responsibility and power in equal amounts. Oaths are the “safety valve” to prevent Surgebinder wars and Surgebinder dominance over “mere” humans.

The Recreance and the advent of Vorinism destroyed existing Surgebinders and the ability of spren to create new ones (even had they wanted to). Surgebinders and the KR were now viewed as “evil” and untrustworthy. I suggest the spren would not have returned to bond with humans had Nohadon’s book not found its way back from obscurity. This is why I think so many Kholins are potential Surgebinders – they’ve all read the in-world Way of Kings or had read the book read to them, absorbing its ideals.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Confused
Clarity. Correct links.

[galendo]

I'll be honest.  I can't see how you're reaching the conclusion that radiant spren are a combination of other spren.  I read the WoB you quoted, then read them again, but I don't see them saying that at all.  The first one seems to just be saying that each KR Order has two surges.  The second one seems to be saying much the same thing.  The third is saying how/why spren become sapient, but nothing about their composition.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say what it describes is a slow awakening/evolution, which seems much different than the wielding together of two lesser spren that you seem to be advocating.

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're proposing, in which case, carry on.

[b4dave]

There was another WOB that Spren can be combined, so I think that might be part of where he was going with this

[Dracnor]

There was another WOB that Spren can be combined, so I think that might be part of where he was going with this

 

 

Here it is:

 

Question

Can spren be put back together through the Bondsmith? Like Shards can be combined?

Brandon Sanderson

They can be combined, but I won’t say if the Bondsmith is the method.

[Confused]

Galendo: “Surges” are not “magic systems.” Surges are “the forces in this world [Roshar],” as Brandon says in the December 2010 WoB quoted in the OP. Brandon recently confirmed that the Surges resemble the “fundamental forces” of our universe, modified by magical influence. Source at [1:41:30]. I view the Surges as Spiritual Realm Connections between people {Souls) and/or objects (Essences). Look at the Wiki page on Surgebinding to see what I mean.

 

The relevant “magic system” is Surgebinding, the ability to alter the Connection each Surge represents. Again, the Wiki Surgebinding page makes this clear. For example, it says the “Transformation Surge can be manipulated by the Surgebinder to change the molecular structure of an object.” That’s what Soulcasting does.

 

When Brandon says “Each order was based on a combination of two of the ‘smaller’ magic systems in this world, so to speak… [October 2010 WoB quoted in OP, emphasis added],” he must mean spren capable of manipulating a single Surge. He isn’t referring to Surges themselves, which aren’t “magic systems” at all. And he isn’t referring to Radiantspren, since the magic Radiantspren enable is considered a “major” system. All we’re left with is single “lesser’ spren like gravityspren and windspren combining to create an honorspren.

 

Dracnor’s quoted WoB shows that spren can combine. (Dracnor, can you give us a link to this WoB?) The fact that Brandon was deliberately vague regarding the method tells us that something other than Bondsmiths may be the agent of their combination.

[MoS03]

 

We do know that Nohadon thought that “not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.” We also know that Surgebinders fought each other during his time. The fact that Surgebinders would seek prominence over one other and fight to achieve it strongly suggests that the in-world Words of Radiance author was wrong about what Ishar did.

 

Nohadon’s book sought to change that. His parables caused perceptions of Surgebinders to change and the KR to form. Radiantspren changed to accommodate these new perceptions: oaths arose to ensure the incremental accretion of both responsibility and power in equal amounts. Oaths are the “safety valve” to prevent Surgebinder wars and Surgebinder dominance over “mere” humans.

 

The Recreance and the advent of Vorinism destroyed existing Surgebinders and the ability of spren to create new ones (even had they wanted to). Surgebinders and the KR were now viewed as “evil” and untrustworthy. I suggest the spren would not have returned to bond with humans had Nohadon’s book not found its way back from obscurity. This is why I think so many Kholins are potential Surgebinders – they’ve all read the in-world Way of Kings or had read the book read to them.

 

 

 

Hmmm.  You posted a lot of interesting stuff, that doesn't have a lot of gaps or loopholes.  I think you're pretty much on track.  This tiny little bit towards the end I need to comment on however.

 

First off, ignorance.  We have zero idea what Ishar did.  Did he change spren, so they were more Honor than they were before, and now they themselves demand the Oaths?  Or, did he change the KR, so they have to say the Oaths?  Or, perhaps, he changes some fundamental way they were able to cross over from the CogRealm in order to connect with a proto-Radiant?  I'd also argue that no matter what, since the first Oath is always the same, and, in my opinion, what steers the morality of a KR the most, that perhaps the other Oaths didn't need to be spoken before?  Perhaps the Kaladin scene in WoR involving this would have happened regardless, but at a slightly different time, not when he said a phrase, and the only trigger required was the action?

 

Also, we have no confirmation aside from Dalinar's confidence that this man was actually Nohadon, and a certain phrase coinciding with one from a book. We also don't know if Nohadon even actually wrote the book!  It could have been a confidant, an advisor, a spouse, or even a child.  We just lack enough evidence to say for sure he's the author (I do think it likely, however).

 

Second, time.  My head-cannon says 1) Some Desolations, some Surgebinders, lots of time, 2) Nohadon born, really bad Desolation with lots of dead people, Surgebinders squabbling, and in which Dalinar has a vision, 3) Ishar (or somebody...? All we have is in-world writings...) does a thing that forces more order on the Surgebinders (or, perhaps, their Spren?), whom now require Oaths, and face punishment for breaking them.

 

So, Ishar couldn't be blamed for the Desolation in TimeChunk 2, due to his actions occuring sometime in TimeChunk 3.  Perhaps, this terrible Desolation is the direct **cause** of Ishar's New Rules?

 

Third.  storming brilliant idea about InWorldTWoK being why Kholins are getting chosen.  I'd imagine that, anyone reading this book and pondering it's contents would naturally attract some kind of low-level intent synergy with any number of Radiant Spren.  Imagine if one of the concepts struck a strong chord in a person, and this concept lined up with a piece of Investiture looking to gain some sentience?  Boom, Kholins.  Didn't Jasnah read it to Gavilar often?

 

@ Maxal, sure seems like Adolin spent a lot of time pondering all the positive changes The Codes brought to his father's camp, trusting Dalinar enough to follow his new ideology, all of which Dalinar got directly from InWorldTWoK...  Just sayin'.

[Pathfinder]

Here it is:

Eh I dunno, that WoB sounds more to me like the person was asking if a bondsmith could put a dead spren back together like reuniting the shards of adonalsium. The reason the spren are dead is because they are missing the part that gave them sapience when the radiant broke his or her oath. So I took it as questioning if a bondsmith has a way to reunite those parts and thus revive a dead spren. Just my own interpretation of that WoB. 

[kenod]

Quite interesting with the Kholins and bonding spren is that bonding them require a cracked soul, so what does that say about the family?

[maxal]

@ Maxal, sure seems like Adolin spent a lot of time pondering all the positive changes The Codes brought to his father's camp, trusting Dalinar enough to follow his new ideology, all of which Dalinar got directly from InWorldTWoK...  Just sayin'.

 

Strange to see myself quote in a thread I haven't participate in   A few thoughts on those Codes though... I personally do think they may be a requirement for some Radiants, but not all. Radiants such as Shallan and Jasnah certainly do not live by those and yet they were chosen, but it may be honor inclined Radiants need to have higher level guidelines. After all, both Kaladin and Dalinar are heavily limited into the actions they are allowed to make.

 

Adolin may have heard the codes, he may have come to accept they perhaps were a necessity, but it is obvious to me his heart in not in them. He'll follow them as long as their guiding lines do not clash with his inner morality, but once it happens, his heart wins, not the codes. Here is the major difference in between father and son: Dalinar is willing to allow threats go unchecked if he doesn't have a precise, clean and honor approved route to follow while Adolin's heart won't allow him to let people suffer because honor says he can't act. If Adolin becomes a Radiant, it will be a very different one from Dalinar.

 

 

Quite interesting with the Kholins and bonding spren is that bonding them require a cracked soul, so what does that say about the family?

 

Not much. Brandon said the reason so many Kholins were chosen was because they stand at the foremost of important events. It appears most sprens don't like to bond people random, they tend to pick them out of important group of people. After all, an isolated Radiant in the middle of nowhere wouldn't accomplish much. The Kholins aren't a worst family than others, they are just very important, so the sprens capitalized on their weaknesses to bond them. Also each and every single Kholin's cracks seem to have sprout from personal issues and not family related ones. If the family was rotten, Adolin wouldn't be our token normal guy.

[TwelfthOfSnackTime]

I thought the idea that society viewing the KR as the bad guys being responsible for there being no more surgbinders very interesting. It does make a great deal of sense. But I don't believe the resurgence of the in-world  Way of Kings had anything to do with the KR resurgence.

 

Kaladin still thought the KR were bad even as he was becoming one and he had never even heard of the Way of Kings. Renarin and Lift both believed they bonded Voidbinders. Shallan thought she was going insane, as did Dalinar in his own way.

 

Maybe the negative views of the KR are impeding a full KR resurgence, and that is why they are being extra picky about their first choices. They don't want another Recreance right out of the gate.  It'll be up to the 'first generation' KR to change societies view point on the subject to unleash the full resurgence.

[MoS03]

Just because some of the Spren chose people not involved with the InWorldTWoK doesn't mean that the book didn't help with the others. A surprising amount of our Proto-KR have read it, had it read to them, or had it's precepts enforced upon them and saw it's worth.

And, it seems Kaladin didn't need to book to help him attract Syl, he's just that perfect of a choice.