Renarin's Second Surge

[+Invocation]

Renarin said he wasn't having any luck with making Illumination work. Is it possible that he has a different Surge combination? If so, what Surge do y'all think he would have as a backup?

[Calderis he/him]

26 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Renarin said he wasn't having any luck with making Illumination work. Is it possible that he has a different Surge combination? If so, what Surge do y'all think he would have as a backup?

The Voidbinding version of Illumination. 

[Willshaping Crasher]

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

The Voidbinding version of Illumination. 

Void + Illumination = Volumination?

 

...........really bad joke. going to bed now.

[earthexile]

I am convinced that he used a form of Illumination on Adolin when he healed his arm. His thing is that he "sees," and Illumination can be interpreted as gaining knowledge, rather than literally projecting light. We've seen that Dalinar is able to use a metaphorical version of adhesion to create connections between himself and other people.

That's why Renarin isn't able to learn from Shallan, no matter how many times she tries to explain it. They use the same surge in very different ways. These things are forces of nature, but they're bent around the framework of human cognition, and our words have many definitions.

This leads me to wonder about all kinds of things, like what would someone be able to do with different interpretations of Progression or Abrasion, or other surges we haven't seen? I think it's gonna get weird.

[Juanaton he/him]

Based on one of the StormFather's comments to Dalinar, the same surge does different things for different orders. In fact, not only can they do different things with the same surge, but they may not even be able to make the same effect at all. Dalinar as a Bondsmith can't do the same things to rock as the Stoneward in his vision...and presumably a Stoneward wouldn't have been able to repair Thaylenah like Dalinar. Both Skybreakers and Windrunners can fall the wrong direction, so at least some of the applications of the surges DO overlap. That said, I don't see why we MUST assume Renarin's visions are anything but the standard Truthwatcher version of Illumination. His corrupted spren makes it possible that those are from Voidbinding Illumination, however, one of the discovered gemstones held the message that an "ancient" Truthwatcher had "foreseen" the abandonment of the tower. Was that Truthwatcher voidbinding too?

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, Juanaton said:

Was that Truthwatcher voidbinding too?

Considering they felt the need to whisper and hide the fact that they had foreseen anything, yes, I think they were. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

If Renarin is indeed Voidbinding, and Surgebinding (I agree with it, it makes sense), then he might be one of the cooler characters in SA, when it comes to magic. 

Also, do we think that this is possible with other KR-orders? Having powers from both the surges and the void. 

Edited August 12, 2018 by Toaster Retribution

[Kramerfarve]

2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

If Renarin is indeed Voidbinding, and Surgebinding (I agree with it, it makes sense), then he might be one of the cooler characters in SA, when it comes to magic. 

Also, do we think that this is possible with other KR-orders? Having powers from both the surges and the void. 

Not sure what you mean by both surges and the void. The power set has always been surges, and every rosharan magic system accesses them. Voidbinding is different from surgebinding only in fuel and the twist on the surges inherent of the different magic system. So far it seems that twist is a shift from a cognitive surge focus to a spiritual surge focus.

 

I do hope we see more of voidbinding though, as that system is very interesting to me.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Kramerfarve

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

1 hour ago, Kramerfarve said:

Not sure what you mean by both surges and the void. The power set has always been surges, and every rosharan magic system accesses them. Voidbinding is different from surgebinding only in fuel and the twist on the surges inherent of the different magic system. So far it seems that twist is a shift from a cognitive surge focus to a spiritual surge focus.

 

There is an idea that we havent seen Voidbinding yet, and that the thibgs that are used in OB is just Surgebinding fueled by Voidlight. I believe so myself. But might be wrong, who knows :-)

[Calderis he/him]

6 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

There is an idea that we havent seen Voidbinding yet, and that the thibgs that are used in OB is just Surgebinding fueled by Voidlight. I believe so myself. But might be wrong, who knows :-)

Screw it. I'm gonna go write it up and post in Cosmere Discussion, because the Fused aren't Voidbinding. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

28 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Screw it. I'm gonna go write it up and post in Cosmere Discussion, because the Fused aren't Voidbinding. 

This is really important to you. I’m looking forward to your topic.

[Calderis he/him]

49 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

This is really important to you. I’m looking forward to your topic.

Here you go. 

 

[Juanaton he/him]

@Calderis, I agree that the Fused haven't been shown voidbinding. IF we have seen voidbinding so far, it is with Renarin's visions...and I think it is likely his visions are an example of voidbinding. I admit, it is likely the ancient Truthwatcher was also voidbinding. However, I don't think it is NECESSARY for him/her to have been voidbinding to feel the need to whisper their admission of foresight, simply because others would ASSUME it to be the result of voidbinding/Odium whether or not that was true.

I didn't make the point very clearly I think, but what I was trying to get at is that just because Renarin/a Truthwatcher can't make illusions with their surge of illumination like a Lightweaver(Shallan) does, doesn't mean they aren't using the Surgebinding form of that surge. Both the Bondsmiths and Stonewards use the surge of Tension, but it doesn't work the same way for both, per the StormFather.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Juanaton
misspelled the name of an order

[Subvisual Haze]

I think he's using the same Voidbinding that Singers use in Nightform.  I think it's an effect of Glys originally being a Truthwatcher spren, but then being changed by Sja-Anat into something like a hybrid of Radiantspren and Odiumspren.  The result being Renarin has the Radiant surge of Regrowth, but also the Voidbinding power of Nightform, allowing him to glimpse the future.  There are a lot of epigraph songs in WoR that seem to make reference to this.

Quote

"Nightform predicting what will be, / The form of shadows, mind to foresee. / As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered. / A new storm will come, someday to break. / A new storm a new world to make. / A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens." Song of Secrets, 17th stanza

Sounds like a perfect match for Renarin's foresight.

Quote

"But it is not impossible to blend / Their Surges to ours in the end. / It has been promised and it can come. / Or do we understand the sum? / We questioned not if they can have us then, / But if we dare to have them again."  Song of Spren, 10th stanza

Blending of Radiant and Singer surges has been promised/prophecized.  This seems to have been fulfilled in Renarin/Glys.

[Quantus he/him]

@Subvisual Haze I have to hand it to you that does seem to line up too well to dismiss.

  @Calderis, I agree with your locigc that Fused arent Voidbinding, how do you feel about the idea that the Regal's Forms of Power are granting Voidbinding? I could personally see that being it, though the timing of that post-WoR WoB doesnt line up; I could also see that being half of it, and it takes a Renarin with his one normal and one inverted Surge to make true Voidbinding.  That would more accurately reflect the Voidbinding Chart glyphs, if nothing else.  It also gives us somewhere to start (ie the Songs) for what the Voidbinding surges might look like, and would indicate we have 4-5 more Forms of Power to see.

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

@Calderis, I agree with your locigc that Fused arent Voidbinding, how do you feel about the idea that the Regal's Forms of Power are granting Voidbinding? I could personally see that being it, though the timing of that post-WoR WoB doesnt line up; I could also see that being half of it, and it takes a Renarin with his one normal and one inverted Surge to make true Voidbinding.

Because of that WoB, I don't believe so. 

I think all forms, void or normal, are just an organic extension of the fabrial system. A spren is bound into a gem(heart) and produces an effect. 

It could mimic effects from both systems, so it's not a total write off, but like alerter fabrials, I also think that system can produce effects the others can't in themselves. It's just far more specialized. 

[Quantus he/him]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Because of that WoB, I don't believe so. 

I think all forms, void or normal, are just an organic extension of the fabrial system. A spren is bound into a gem(heart) and produces an effect. 

It could mimic effects from both systems, so it's not a total write off, but like alerter fabrials, I also think that system can produce effects the others can't in themselves. It's just far more specialized. 

Taking a step back then, would it fit that Renarin was the first on-screen Voidbinder, on the logic that (as per the glyph symmetry) it requires both halves, a normal surge and the power of one of the Forms?

Also, if the Forms of Power fall into Fabrial Magic because "spren is bound into a gem(heart) and produces an effect", what do you think is going on with Venli, Timbre, and their prisoner Voidspren.  Might that lead to Voidbinding (given that Venli's Order was the first Brandon wrote)?

And in a more general sense what do you see as the defining trait of each?  It sounds like housing a Spren in a Gem bumps it to Fabrial territory.  Id have pointed to the Nahel Bond as the defining trait of Surgebinding but the Honorblades kind of spoil that. Im generally thinking that that Voidbinding will be more distinct than just Odium corrupting and/or mimicking Surgebinding 1-for-1, but the diagram does point that way at least a little.

 

PS.  Any Creative Types feel up to making a Dr Seuss style children's book titled "A Spren in a Gem"?  I will totally back that kickstarter!

[Calderis he/him]

@Quantus you've read and commented on the thread I linked above.

Yes, Renarin is in my opinion the only Voidbinding we've seen. 

If the forms mimic something from Voidbinding, that would be an effect of the fabrial system in itself. 

Quote

Questioner

Is, like, fabrials that can imitate, I mean, very specific forms of Surgebinding... Are there fabrials that can imitate the Surge-- <stages> of Voidbinding?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That is theoretically possible.

source

As to Venli, she's not one thing. She's a Willshaper, with a regal form. Timber can directly effect the Spren and suppress the effects it has on her, because she can enter the gemheart and effect the Spren. It's two systems independent of each other though. 

[Quantus he/him]

30 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Quantus you've read and commented on the thread I linked above.

Sorry about that, I entirely forgot the Renarin Aspect of your argument.  Allergies and fever can do wonders for oddball theory-craft, but it's apparently a double-edged sword. Ill stop now.

 

On Venli, I can accept that, though I still find myself wondering if her ability to manipulate Connection (or one of the Willshaper surges) somehow helped facilitate her dual status. 

[Scion of the Mists]

On 8/12/2018 at 7:28 AM, earthexile said:

I am convinced that he used a form of Illumination on Adolin when he healed his arm.

That was Progression, the other surge of Truthwatchers.  

[CrazyRioter she/her]

He might have inadvertently combined the two.

[Scion of the Mists]

16 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

He might have inadvertently combined the two.

Wouldn't the simplest explanation be that he only used one surge, the one that we know can heal, rather than combining the healing surge with a non-healing surge?  

[earthexile]

He did use Progression to heal, but he also projected some kind of vision of a perfected Adolin into Adolin's mind. It reminds me of the way Shallan draws idealized images of people, and made me think that it had something to do with the way his Illumination works.

[Agent34]

Quote

Questioner

Different surges are shared by different orders. Do they work the same for the different order?

Brandon Sanderson

They work basically the same though there is some... sometimes the combination of the two will produce some side effects that are unique, but the basic powers are the same.

source

The Stormfather's comment about Dalinar's ability when compared to the Stoneward's is incorrect as said Stoneward was using a Surge Bondsmiths don't access.

[PianoSpren]

On 12/08/2018 at 0:28 PM, earthexile said:

I am convinced that he used a form of Illumination on Adolin when he healed his arm. His thing is that he "sees," and Illumination can be interpreted as gaining knowledge, rather than literally projecting light. We've seen that Dalinar is able to use a metaphorical version of adhesion to create connections between himself and other people.

That's why Renarin isn't able to learn from Shallan, no matter how many times she tries to explain it. They use the same surge in very different ways. These things are forces of nature, but they're bent around the framework of human cognition, and our words have many definitions.

This leads me to wonder about all kinds of things, like what would someone be able to do with different interpretations of Progression or Abrasion, or other surges we haven't seen? I think it's gonna get weird.

I think Renarin's healing ability is a combination of the two. When he first heals Adolin, he says something like 'He could see a version of himself, except somehow perfected' (I can't remember the exact phrasing, but that's the general gist of it. This leads me to believe that he sees (through Illumination) the spiritual realm-version of the subject (this would explain why the vision appears to be 'better' than the current material person) and then uses  progression to make them go closer to it, thus healing them. This could mean Renarin wasn't able to heal Rysn because she had been wounded for so long that it had already made an impression on her spiritual form, like how an object that is broken in the material plane's 'bead' is still whole until you start thinking of it as permanently broken.