Calderis he/him Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 20 minutes ago, Quantus said: Wait, I thought the Everstorm was a staple element of the previous desolations, how else were odium's forces fueling their Voidbinding? BAM alone couldnt funnel enough, right? According to the epigraph about BAM from the gemstone recordings, BAM only did that during the false desolation. Quote Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her. —From drawer 30-20, fourth emerald Key words there are "as Odium once did." The Everstorm couldn't have happened before. It completely invalidates the Oathpact. As long as it is around the Fused can just come back. Per the Stormfather himself, it is something "new, but old of design" which says to me its something Odium has been working on, and wanted for a long time... But it hasn't happened before.
Quantus he/him Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 6 minutes ago, Calderis said: According to the epigraph about BAM from the gemstone recordings, BAM only did that during the false desolation. Key words there are "as Odium once did." The Everstorm couldn't have happened before. It completely invalidates the Oathpact. As long as it is around the Fused can just come back. Per the Stormfather himself, it is something "new, but old of design" which says to me its something Odium has been working on, and wanted for a long time... But it hasn't happened before. Interesting! That still doesnt really explain how Odium was getting Void-light to his forces during the normal Desolations. That's not to say he isnt more than capable, Im just curious what form and mechanism he used. Was he just waving a hand and whooshing void-light out to their gems? Was he Bonding them more directly in a corrupted sort of Nahel Bond? Was he able to summon his own Perpendicularity (and if so why would that be Voidlight when any other shards perpendicularity will supposedly fill gems with Stormlight.
Calderis he/him Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 12 minutes ago, Quantus said: Interesting! That still doesnt really explain how Odium was getting Void-light to his forces during the normal Desolations. That's not to say he isnt more than capable, Im just curious what form and mechanism he used. Was he just waving a hand and whooshing void-light out to their gems? Was he Bonding them more directly in a corrupted sort of Nahel Bond? Was he able to summon his own Perpendicularity (and if so why would that be Voidlight when any other shards perpendicularity will supposedly fill gems with Stormlight. Well, we don't have an answer as to how that's happening now. The Everstorm doesn't fill gems, with Stormlight or Voidlight. Trust me, I've spent more than enough time trying to figure this out...
Quantus he/him Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 14 minutes ago, Calderis said: Well, we don't have an answer as to how that's happening now. The Everstorm doesn't fill gems, with Stormlight or Voidlight. Trust me, I've spent more than enough time trying to figure this out... Apparently I need to go back to school (or take a nap) because it looks like the Everstorm wasnt at all what I thought it was... I know it revives the Fused, it allows them some ability to travel to and from Shadesmar (right?), and I thought it was also fueling their Voidlight but apparently not. I thought it also futzed with the Highstorm itself in some ways, yes? Made the Timing less predictable and prevented it from refilling gems when/where they crossed. How much of that is actually correct?
Calderis he/him Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 @Quantus the timing issues with the Highstorm are seemingly an issue resulting from the unscheduled storm that the Stormfather sent at the end of WoR. As to it blocking the storm from providing Stormlight... I don't believe so. We've one seen the one meeting at the end of WoR, and both Szeth and Kal both had Stormlight available within it. It was strong enough to through full plateaus into the air though, so good luck finding any gems left out in that.
Quantus he/him Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 Well there goes most of what I thought it was doing, looks like I was filling in the blank spots with a big ol' assumption. And you say there's no good answer yet on how the Fused are/were getting void-light? That's going to nag at me.
Yvainnie she/her Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 4 hours ago, Quantus said: Well there goes most of what I thought it was doing, looks like I was filling in the blank spots with a big ol' assumption. And you say there's no good answer yet on how the Fused are/were getting void-light? That's going to nag at me. I always assumed they get it from from Everstorm but if it is new thing then they have to have some other means but only one Unmade is said to be capable of doing this so right know they probably get it from Odium himself. I wonder if Renarin could find out how it works and draw some voidlight himself?
mosaab Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 On 7/31/2018 at 5:31 AM, StrikerEZ said: Gavilar's plan wasn't supposed to bring about the everstorm. It was just supposed to bring the next Desolation, or some threat, to help unite the world. Do we know that though ? Or do we assume becouse he wanted to give them their forms of power & wanted an enemy for unity? If so than why did he care about the peace treaty so much? Seems everyone has forgotten this. My theory, Gavilar had access to BAM and through her void light, we know that BAM was behind the false desolation, and made a connection with the singers so strong that her imprisonment ripped their minds & identity. Gavilar was given the mandate to UNITE THEM, so he came to the conclusion that to defeat Odium the humans and the singers have to be on the same side, so with BAM's help he restores the minds of the singer & gives them form of power not beholden to Odium. And the peace treaty was a basis for cooperation, by recognizing the singer's as a sovereign nation, as appossed what they are doing now. Which is basically "they are angry and want what's theirs, so let's kill them before they kill us". The author muddied the water by assosiating Gavilar with amaram so much, it seems like they say the same thing but there are differences. Amaram talks about the heralds coming Back from the tranqualine hall's while Gavilar talks about forcing them out of hiding. Amaram talks about the church & vorinism while Gavilar talks about humanity's history in general. Amaram talks about starting a glorious war while Gavilar talks about ending an unfinished one. the entire thing reeks of authorial misdirection, giving him so many shady associations, having Navani constantly hint at unpleasant secrets, ultimately he is the one who set dalinar on the path to ascendancy, he is the one who told him to follow the codes, he is the one who look for the most important words a man cam say & showed him The Way of Kings. 5
+Child of Hodor Posted August 1, 2018 Author Posted August 1, 2018 3 hours ago, mosaab said: Do we know that though ? Or do we assume becouse he wanted to give them their forms of power & wanted an enemy for unity? If so than why did he care about the peace treaty so much? Seems everyone has forgotten this. My theory, Gavilar had access to BAM and through her void light, we know that BAM was behind the false desolation, and made a connection with the singers so strong that her imprisonment ripped their minds & identity. Gavilar was given the mandate to UNITE THEM, so he came to the conclusion that to defeat Odium the humans and the singers have to be on the same side, so with BAM's help he restores the minds of the singer & gives them form of power not beholden to Odium. And the peace treaty was a basis for cooperation, by recognizing the singer's as a sovereign nation, as appossed what they are doing now. Which is basically "they are angry and want what's theirs, so let's kill them before they kill us". The author muddied the water by assosiating Gavilar with amaram so much, it seems like they say the same thing but there are differences. Amaram talks about the heralds coming Back from the tranqualine hall's while Gavilar talks about forcing them out of hiding. Amaram talks about the church & vorinism while Gavilar talks about humanity's history in general. Amaram talks about starting a glorious war while Gavilar talks about ending an unfinished one. the entire thing reeks of authorial misdirection, giving him so many shady associations, having Navani constantly hint at unpleasant secrets, ultimately he is the one who set dalinar on the path to ascendancy, he is the one who told him to follow the codes, he is the one who look for the most important words a man cam say & showed him The Way of Kings. Yeah, I feel like the prologue to OB showed Gavilar at his worst intentionally. Being arrogant and condescending to Eshonai and thinking they'd be happy to have their gods back. He was a warmonger when he was younger, but even then he was a much better man than the other Alethi leaders. After he started getting the visions he became a better person and tried to guide the Alethi on a better path. I think we will get a prologue with his POV in 5. We will understand him more and view him more favorably. 1
Yvainnie she/her Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 4 hours ago, mosaab said: Do we know that though ? Or do we assume becouse he wanted to give them their forms of power & wanted an enemy for unity? If so than why did he care about the peace treaty so much? Seems everyone has forgotten this. My theory, Gavilar had access to BAM and through her void light, we know that BAM was behind the false desolation, and made a connection with the singers so strong that her imprisonment ripped their minds & identity. Gavilar was given the mandate to UNITE THEM, so he came to the conclusion that to defeat Odium the humans and the singers have to be on the same side, so with BAM's help he restores the minds of the singer & gives them form of power not beholden to Odium. And the peace treaty was a basis for cooperation, by recognizing the singer's as a sovereign nation, as appossed what they are doing now. Which is basically "they are angry and want what's theirs, so let's kill them before they kill us". The author muddied the water by assosiating Gavilar with amaram so much, it seems like they say the same thing but there are differences. Amaram talks about the heralds coming Back from the tranqualine hall's while Gavilar talks about forcing them out of hiding. Amaram talks about the church & vorinism while Gavilar talks about humanity's history in general. Amaram talks about starting a glorious war while Gavilar talks about ending an unfinished one. the entire thing reeks of authorial misdirection, giving him so many shady associations, having Navani constantly hint at unpleasant secrets, ultimately he is the one who set dalinar on the path to ascendancy, he is the one who told him to follow the codes, he is the one who look for the most important words a man cam say & showed him The Way of Kings. If he would have BAM in sphere, why would he not release it to heal singers? 1
Calderis he/him Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Yvainnie said: If he would have BAM in sphere, why would he not release it to heal singers? How would he even know that was possible? Would simply releasing her even do that?
Patrick Star Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Yvainnie said: If he would have BAM in sphere, why would he not release it to heal singers? He wanted a desolation, not a sudden en-masse slave rebellion. Gavilar's goal was to spark the return of the Heralds, presumably without dying himself. Simply healing the parsh would have been bad. He wanted to make sure he sparked a desolation when he was ready.
Yvainnie she/her Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 1 minute ago, Calderis said: How would he even know that was possible? Would simply releasing her even do that? I dont know, that is why I was asking because according that theory I quoted Galivar knew awful lot of things. But assuming he woud have acces to learn all that the theory of @Child of Hodor claims, I think if BAM would give infomation willingly then how to release it would be one of the first ones. As for if it would help, it depends on what exacly heal singers in first place. How exactly does Everstorm restore their Connection? Do they all have corrupted spren in gemhearts? Or just regular spren?
Calderis he/him Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 7 minutes ago, Yvainnie said: How exactly does Everstorm restore their Connection? Do they all have corrupted spren in gemhearts? Or just regular spren? I personally don't think it granted them any spren at all. 1
+Child of Hodor Posted August 1, 2018 Author Posted August 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Calderis said: I personally don't think it granted them any spren at all. I agree, it seems like part of their spiritweb / soul was removed. I wonder if a storm could be crafted to restore what the "dead" spren are missing?
StormingTexan he/him Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 I'm glad this is bothering others. I read that WoB saying "it is what the third book implies it is" and was trying to figure out what I missed because in the same WoB he says he had access to several which doesn't seem like an unmade to me. I feel like this is Brandon's "who killed Asmodean" where he thinks it is totally obvious to everyone. Or this is just some more Talenel miss-direction. I agree with others it doesn't make since for it to be as simple as voidlight. 3
ScavellTane Posted August 2, 2018 Posted August 2, 2018 (edited) BAM may not be 'imprisoned' at all. If the Radiants went with the plan I figured they'd have used the Ruby. Unless, of course, there were more than one of those at the time. Quote "So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address." The Radiants had a 'plan' to capture BAM, but Melishi had a change of plan at the last minute. Edited August 2, 2018 by ScavellTane
CrazyRioter she/her Posted August 2, 2018 Posted August 2, 2018 My impression is they had more than one perfect gemstone. Would have made sense to collect them for stormlight storage purposes anyway.
Calderis he/him Posted August 2, 2018 Posted August 2, 2018 We know for a fact they had more than one. Quote As the duly appointed keepers of the perfect gems, we of the Elsecallers have taken the burden of protecting the ruby nicknamed Honor’s Drop. Let it be recorded. —From drawer 20-10, zircon Keepers of the perfect gems. Plural.
MountainKing Posted August 2, 2018 Posted August 2, 2018 I feel like a perfect gem can only be creates in the cognitive really and then brought back into the physical realm.
Yvainnie she/her Posted August 2, 2018 Posted August 2, 2018 47 minutes ago, MountainKing said: I feel like a perfect gem can only be creates in the cognitive really and then brought back into the physical realm. That would actually make a lot of sense since Elsecallers were in charge of them and they haveeady acces to Shadesmar.
Calderis he/him Posted August 2, 2018 Posted August 2, 2018 (edited) If you were to wholly create it in the Cognitive Realm it would be a Cognitive object though. Could you even bring it into the physical, or would you then need to wire it with a "body" somehow? I think that just adds more hurdles. Edited August 2, 2018 by Calderis
MountainKing Posted August 2, 2018 Posted August 2, 2018 You can use investiture to replicate a cognitive aspect's physical aspects in the cognitive realm. It is unknown if you can bring that construct into the physical realm, but you probably could.
Calderis he/him Posted August 2, 2018 Posted August 2, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, MountainKing said: You can use investiture to replicate a cognitive aspect's physical aspects in the cognitive realm. It is unknown if you can bring that construct into the physical realm, but you probably could. I very much disagree. It's not a replication. You are using investiture to make a representation of an actual object that already exists. Taking that into the physical would be trying to take the Cognitive aspect of an already existent thing and moving it to the Physical. You'd be overlaying the physical aspect with its Cognitive, I feel removing the Cognitive aspect in this way would be more likely to destroy it than to replicate it. Edited August 2, 2018 by Calderis
StrikerEZ he/him Posted August 2, 2018 Posted August 2, 2018 56 minutes ago, Calderis said: A very much disagree. It's not a replication. You are using investiture to make a representation of an actual object that already exists. Taking that into the physical would be trying to take the Cognitive aspect of an already existent thing and moving it to the Physical. You'd be overlaying the physical aspect with its Cognitive, I feel removing the Cognitive aspect in this way would be more likely to destroy it than to replicate it. I think @MountainKing meant when Ico used that weird machine to make the water for the Kaladin and co when they were in Shadesmar. Of course, I don't know if that process would be able to make something new, or if that's what MountainKing was even referencing.
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