[OB] Moash Theory

[MountainKing]

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

Ya, I realize now this was an old misunderstanding of the Odium side that I never fixed in my head after those diagrams disproved it.  I'd previously equated the nine Unmade with the Ten Heralds, and so Id made the assumption that Voidbringing was going to carry theme of Nine throughout, including lacking one order (of which Bondsmith made the most sense).  But those diagrams make it look like there will be ten full orders and all the same(ish) surges.

 

RE. Moash, I actually really enjoy his arc as a point of Comparison: to me he is precisely what Kaladin would have become without Syl, so exploring how dark a path that can become is interesting to me.  Also, his new blade is one of the top three most interesting objects in the book, if I didnt know better Id say Odium knows how to do Type-IV awakening...

Moash first blade was Odium's God metal(new magic system?) and the second blade was the windrunner's honorblade

[The Sovereign]

53 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

Moash first blade was Odium's God metal(new magic system?)

You are making quite a jump here... I suspect the dagger itself actually had very little to do with what it did and really it was the Gemstone that made it have the effect that it had. It is much more likely related to the mechanics of gemstones and investiture like we have seen with Spren/Unmade trapped in Gemstones. This rings especially true when you factor in that the Heralds are essentially Cognitive shadows jammed into bodies similarly to the Returned.

What we know for sure is that it is similar to Hemalurgy, it is not a Dawnshard, and the specific gem was keyed to Jezrien.
 

Quote

 

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Is the sapphire in the white-gold blade specifically for Jezrien?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Uh, yes.

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Do the gems swap out, or are there different weapons? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I'll RAFO that one.

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Are they Dawnshards? Or blades of Odium, like Honorblades?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Those are not Dawnshards. Good question.

source

 

 

Quote

 

kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW]

Have we seen any evidence of Hemalurgy on Roshar? And, as sort of an addendum, given the end of Oathbringer, was what happened to Jezrien Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There are certain cosmere philosophers that would count it. I would divide it as two separate things that are using similar fundamentals... I wouldn't call it myself, but there are people who would disagree with me in-world. Have we seen evidence? I would say no evidence that is easily-- easy to pick out.

kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW]

But it's there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, there are people with Hemalurgy who have been to Roshar. I'm pretty sure they've been on-screen.

source

 

Edited July 24, 2018 by The Sovereign
Formatting.

[Quantus he/him]

41 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

Moash first blade was Odium's God metal(new magic system?) and the second blade was the windrunner's honorblade

Is it confirmed to be a godmetal effect? I got the impression when i first read it that it was a similar effect to Nightblood and Azure's blade.  I entirely forgot he was given the Honorblade, Id just remembered them sending him to kill the Herald.

[Sherlock Holmes he/him]

I know that Kelsier was trapped in the Cognitive Realm. And I never doubted that he'd come back. He is numero uno. BUT SERIOUSLY, do any of you think that Brandon would kill him again after all the work he went through to keep him alive?!

[The Sovereign]

20 minutes ago, AxeliustheGreat said:

I know that Kelsier was trapped in the Cognitive Realm. And I never doubted that he'd come back. He is numero uno. BUT SERIOUSLY, do any of you think that Brandon would kill him again after all the work he went through to keep him alive?!

You have some more homework to do mate  Kelsier WAS trapped in the Cognitive Realm.

BOM & SH Spoilers:

 

The Sovereign is Kelsier, Hemalurgy is nifty.

Edited July 24, 2018 by The Sovereign

[Sherlock Holmes he/him]

Yeah, I know. Look closely at what I wrote. It says 'was trapped,' not 'is trapped.'

[goody153]

Moash is a pretty interesting character but that doesn't mean we can't hate him. He's one of the love to hate him types 

8 hours ago, AxeliustheGreat said:

I know that Kelsier was trapped in the Cognitive Realm. And I never doubted that he'd come back. He is numero uno. BUT SERIOUSLY, do any of you think that Brandon would kill him again after all the work he went through to keep him alive?!

Kelsier seems to be setup as the rival of his pet-character(Hoid) so he should live awhile. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by goody153

[Nymeros]

On 7/24/2018 at 9:38 AM, Matias said:

Am i the only one who likes Moash?, or at least don't hate him, he is a nice character

I love Moash. He isn't becoming a Bondsmith though. The dude's a loner.

On 7/24/2018 at 8:48 AM, Quantus said:

RE. Moash, I actually really enjoy his arc as a point of Comparison: to me he is precisely what Kaladin would have become without Syl,

Kaladin wouldn't have become a villian. He was going to kill himself, remember?

On 7/23/2018 at 11:01 AM, AxeliustheGreat said:

So what Moash did is about ten times worse than what Dalinar did, but Moash still doesn't care.

Killing one civilian is worse than killing hundreds? How so?

[Quantus he/him]

21 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Kaladin wouldn't have become a villian. He was going to kill himself, remember?

Sure, at that stage in his journey.  But he could very easily have taken the same path Moash did (ie more devoted Vengeance) with only a few small differences in his Choices made.

[dantlee]

7 hours ago, Quantus said:

Sure, at that stage in his journey.  But he could very easily have taken the same path Moash did (ie more devoted Vengeance) with only a few small differences in his Choices made.

Totally agree with this. I actually think Moash is a really interesting character, and a perfect counterpart to Kal - he's what Kaladin could easily have become without the guidance of Syl. In fact, had it not been for Syl's quasi-death, Kaladin was basically on the exact same path to kill Elhokar in WoR; and he didn't even have the same personal history that Moash did. 

Now, I don't believe at all that Moash will become a bondsmith, and I don't think he'll have a redemptive journey (I think his destiny is more like Miles Hundredlives). But I think the Moash hatred in general is pretty overblown: one of Brandon's most consistent themes throughout the Cosmere is that depending on time and circumstance, a villain in one story could easily be a hero in another (see: Kelsier). 

[Andy92]

I don’t think Moash can have a redemptive arc anytime soon because we’re starting to run out of living antagonists lol. 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

9 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I don’t think Moash can have a redemptive arc anytime soon because we’re starting to run out of living antagonists lol. 

• Way of Kings: Helaran 
• Words of Radiance: Sadeas
• Oathbringer: Amaram

Who's next???

[goody153]

8 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

• Way of Kings: Helaran 
• Words of Radiance: Sadeas
• Oathbringer: Amaram

Who's next???

Kill Mr. T please oh i want that dude out of the game so bad. He isn't interesting adversary anymore, he's just like another cartoony sniveling starscream type of villain. 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

1 minute ago, goody153 said:

Kill Mr. T please oh i want that dude out of the game so bad. He isn't interesting adversary anymore, he's just like another cartoony sniveling starscream type of villain. 

I really disagree. @Calderis will probably do a better job of explaining why though, and I'm too tired to bother right now.

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, goody153 said:

Kill Mr. T please oh i want that dude out of the game so bad. He isn't interesting adversary anymore, he's just like another cartoony sniveling starscream type of villain. 

I completely disagree. Flat out my favorite Cosmere character. If he is simply what believes he is, I'd agree with you, but I don't believe that for a second. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Calderis

[goody153]

Well i thought he was  interesting before he joined Odium. That's why i wanted him dead he was really intriguing on his own doing what he believed was right, well he has somebody dictating him now which isn't as interesting as before. Anything he does will make it seem like Odium was doing it, no longer his own initiative. Fairly good way to kill a characters potential IMO.

His uncloaking from the shadows removed alot of potential absolute chaos in the future too. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by goody153

[Nymeros]

9 hours ago, Quantus said:

Sure, at that stage in his journey.  But he could very easily have taken the same path Moash did (ie more devoted Vengeance) with only a few small differences in his Choices made.

I was thrown off by your precisely then. Kaladin is too different from Moash to walk the same path. Kaladin needs Syl not to commit suicide.....so what stage of his journey are you referring to when you say 'without Syl?'

33 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I don’t think Moash can have a redemptive arc anytime soon because we’re starting to run out of living antagonists lol. 

True. I really want him to be a Radiant but:

-We do need powerful villains with a connection to the themes of the story (transformation, accountability) and a connection to the heroes

-It would be weird for him to switch from a Windrunner moveset to another Orders (and he doesnt seem like the Windrunner type)

 

.....Le sigh

[Calderis he/him]

@goody153 rather than type out my reasoning, I'll just quote a post that I detail it pretty thoroughly. 

On 6/24/2018 at 8:47 AM, Calderis said:

Weeeee, Taravangian thread! My favorite.

First thing first, his boon and curse. There is no storming way that this was the Nightwatcher. She couldn't grasp the concept of forgiveness, or why someone would want it. Capacity? And the craziness of this boon/curse? 

Every example given to us of a Nightwatcher boon/curse are two distinct things. A boon, and numb hands. Cloth, and seeing the world upside down. The very way that people speak of a boon and a curse. But in Dalinar we saw a boon and curse intertwined. I think with both Taravangian and Lift we're seeing the same things. Far more complicated, and far more powerful gifts than the Nightwatcher is capable of. Cultivation's work, used with Cultivation's foresight. 

So the Diagram... Is not what it seems to be. Taravangian believes that his interpretations have failed, and there are contingencies and branches. That the further he gets from the day it was made the more it diverges from its accuracy. And yet it was able to foresee the circumstances of him being met with by Odium on a low intelligence day? So much so that it includes details about Odium have agreed to a trial of champions and being unable to confront Dalinar directly any longer? 

Quote

“You need me,” Taravangian whispered.
“I need nobody.”
Taravangian looked up and there, glowing in front of him, was a set of words. A message from himself, in the past. Incredible! Had he somehow seen even this?
Thank you.
He read them out loud. “You have agreed to a battle of champions. You must withdraw to prevent this contest from occurring, and so must not meet with Dalinar Kholin again. Otherwise, he can force you to fight. This means you must let your agents do your work. You need me.”

I don't believe that for a moment. The Diagram has been absolutely accurate up to this point. It's "failures" have steered events precisely. Szeth's slaughter of world leaders created the ground on which the coalition was built. The release of information to undermine the coalition lead directly to Dalinar's desperate situation and rejection of Odium during the battle of Thaylen city which in turn led to the meeting with Odium where he read those words. 

Taravangian on the day of the Diagram laid out this plan to steer his less intelligent self (and even on genius days, he's still far less intelligent) by the nose to follow the true plan he had on that day. That plan did not exist outside of his head. Odium is aware of everything that is in the Diagram, and to have written down the plan would mean to expose it to scrutiny.

The goals of the Diagram are not, and have never been what Taravangian believes. This is not about saving a remnant. This is not capitulation. This is about positioning himself where he can do the most to undermine Odium directly. He is now a "servant" of Odium, ruling one of the most powerful nations on Roshar. Odium believes him to be loyal out of necessity, because Taravangian himself believes that. Which is the entire point. He is a trusted tool of the enemy. It's in that "capacity" that he'll be able to do what needs to be done. 

Or as @RShara likes to put it. "T is a plant" 

 

[Nymeros]

25 minutes ago, goody153 said:

Kill Mr. T please oh i want that dude out of the game so bad. He isn't interesting adversary anymore, he's just like another cartoony sniveling starscream type of villain. 

Dude, what about Taravangian is sniveling or cartoony?

 

[goody153]

28 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Dude, what about Taravangian is sniveling or cartoony?

He started as a character who seemingly kind-hearted ruler in the surface into a complex scheming character who manipulates alot of things from the shadow. Then he turned into Odium henchman renouncing his own "claim for control" (i don't have other words that fits what i mean). Basically he went from cool to pathetic even tho he had alot of room to work with(i could see him surrendering to Odium he just did it too soon(even tho it should make sense since Szeth is there to reveal the problems) ).

He's similar to starscream now when he was originally a really frightening/crafty figure in the dark. Now that i think about it even Amaram(anti-climactic conclusion) and Odium( the most dangerous of the 16 isn't that great apparently .. he lost his horror factor) has been disappointing since Oathbringer. (in contrast i liked how Moash turned out)

His character progression in Oathbringer just disappointed me. Well Odium and Amaram disappointed me as well but this is not a oathbringer complain thread so not gonna expand about that.

[NoiseSpren he/him]

5 hours ago, goody153 said:

His uncloaking from the shadows removed alot of potential absolute chaos in the future too. 

This can mean only one thing because this is Brandon. There will be some way bigger chaos-maker. For example in WoT after Ishamaels death other great Forsaken appeared on screen. In bigger numbers.

Ps: I know that WoT wrote Jordan (most of it), but I think this will be similar.

[Quantus he/him]

8 hours ago, Nymeros said:

I was thrown off by your precisely then. Kaladin is too different from Moash to walk the same path. Kaladin needs Syl not to commit suicide.....so what stage of his journey are you referring to when you say 'without Syl?'

True. I really want him to be a Radiant but:

-We do need powerful villains with a connection to the themes of the story (transformation, accountability) and a connection to the heroes

-It would be weird for him to switch from a Windrunner moveset to another Orders (and he doesnt seem like the Windrunner type)

 

.....Le sigh

Basically what @dantlee said.  You arent wrong that from a Butterfly effect perspective they didnt have the opportunity to literally change places because Kaladin would have most likely died at some point along the line (and likely Moash and all of Bridge four without him).  But in terms of their character arcs, of the hardships and choices they have faced and made, Moash is choosing the opposite path from Kaladin, most especially where Kaladin almost but did not choose Vengeance (thanks largely to not wanting Syl to die).  I see that symmetry, but more importantly I think both of them do too. 

[Nymeros]

8 hours ago, goody153 said:

He started as a character who seemingly kind-hearted ruler in the surface into a complex scheming character who manipulates alot of things from the shadow. Then he turned into Odium henchman renouncing his own "claim for control" (i don't have other words that fits what i mean). Basically he went from cool to pathetic even tho he had alot of room to work with(i could see him surrendering to Odium he just did it too soon(even tho it should make sense since Szeth is there to reveal the problems) ).

He's similar to starscream now when he was originally a really frightening/crafty figure in the dark. Now that i think about it even Amaram(anti-climactic conclusion) and Odium( the most dangerous of the 16 isn't that great apparently .. he lost his horror factor) has been disappointing since Oathbringer. (in contrast i liked how Moash turned out)

His character progression in Oathbringer just disappointed me. Well Odium and Amaram disappointed me as well but this is not a oathbringer complain thread so not gonna expand about that.

I don't get this since he hasn't actually done anything as Odiums agent. I watched a lot of Transformers cartoons as a kid (a lot), and Starscream was actually sniveling and whiny and desiring leadership but too weak and cowardly to take command. That isn't Taravangian. I think you're upset about how you think his story is going to go. He bent the knee but he isnt sniveling or cowardly and we have no idea what dynamic he will have with Odium or what Sanderson has planned for him.

 

[Ironeyes]

On 7/23/2018 at 9:10 PM, galendo said:

I get that there's a lot of hate on here for Moash, but, to be fair, what's he done that's so bad?

What he's done is have an arc that parallels Kaladin's, but taking the opposite choice from Kal at major turning points. In order of importance: 

1. Both have a particular lighteyes they hate, and teeter on the edge of being destroyed by the grudge. Kaladin learns to fight the corrupting influence of that hate, where Moash feeds it. Both kill the lighteyes in question, but Kal does so in defense of Dalinar, fulfilling his oaths as a windrunner. His personal beef with Amaram is no longer his motivation. Moash kills the king in a dishonorable way, and solely for his personal gratification. 
2. Both are offered two different shardblades. Kaladin rejects both Blades he is offered, where Moash doesn't hesitate to take either Blade. 
3. Both become a lighteyes through various means. Moash allows this to separate him from Bridge 4, where Kaladin remains connected with his friends. 
4. Both have serious doubts about their position as Elhokar's guards in WoR. Moash abuses his position to aid the assassination attempt, while Kaladin ultimately honors his by saving the king's life. 
5. The two respect each other greatly, even after clashing so many times. 
6. Each has a powerful mentor who is intimately connected to one of the Shards: Dalinar (Honor) for Kal, the Fused (Odium) for Moash. 
7. Each trains a group of outcasts in the spear: Bridge 4 for Kaladin, the group of parshmen for Moash. 
8. Due to Moash now having Jezrien's Honorblade, both of them have access to the same Surges at the present time. 

Moash is the Vader to Kaladin's Luke, the dark reflection whose narrative purpose is to show what he could have been. The most hearbreaking (and totally Brandon-ish IMO) conclusion to their arc that I can think of is for Moash to become Odium's champion and for Kaladin, as Honor's champion, to be forced to kill his former friend. 

 

6 hours ago, Quantus said:

Basically what @dantlee said.  You arent wrong that from a Butterfly effect perspective they didnt have the opportunity to literally change places because Kaladin would have most likely died at some point along the line (and likely Moash and all of Bridge four without him).  But in terms of their character arcs, of the hardships and choices they have faced and made, Moash is choosing the opposite path from Kaladin, most especially where Kaladin almost but did not choose Vengeance (thanks largely to not wanting Syl to die).  I see that symmetry, but more importantly I think both of them do too. 

EDIT: Lolme for basically rehashing a conversation that was already happening in the thread. If I would finish reading before responding to somebody, this stuff wouldn't happen

Edited July 26, 2018 by Ironeyes

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, Ironeyes said:

EDIT: Lolme for basically rehashing a conversation that was already happening in the thread. If I would finish reading before responding to somebody, this stuff wouldn't happen

But where's the fun in that?