Who the heck is Tarah?

[Seloun]

I am not sure. Tien was the carpenter's third apprentice, he most likely went down a nahn because of this. I have always assumed that Lirin was first nhan, Kal, second and Tien demoted to third because he was not chosen to be an apprentice surgeon.

 

We have a few examples in the book where children are a nhan lower than their parents. Shallan's father is of the fourth nhan: she mentions it a few times. When she goes spying on Amaram, she is nervous because he is one dhan above her father (third nahn) and thus two nahn above her (making Shallan of the fith nahn).

 

Actually, lighteyes ranks are dahn while darkeyes ranks are nahn, with the tenth dahn outranking all nahn ranks:

 

 

Shallan’s panic increased. She barely knew him. Yes, they had chatted frequently, but rarely about the important things. If he left the ardentia, he’d be demoted to tenth dahn, almost as low as a darkeyes. He’d be without money or house, in almost as bad a position as her family.

 

As far as i know there's no explicit case of darkeyed children 'losing' nahn ranks. Lirin implies the opposite, really:

 

 

“You have a gift from the Heralds themselves,” Lirin said, resting a hand on Kal’s shoulder. “You could be ten times the surgeon I am. Don’t dream the small dreams of other men. Our grandfathers bought and worked us to the second nahn so that we could have full citizenship and the right of travel. Don’t waste that on killing.”

 

As far as I know there's no reason to expect that Tien was anything besides second nahn, though it's possible that e.g. it's a title only passed to the inheritor, likely the eldest, and this is why Shallan is a rank below her father (while his heir may be the same rank).

[DeployParachute]

If that were the case, than what would she be doing in a warcamp? Are there many first and second nahn darkeyes in second rate warcamps? Kaladin is an exception. He is second dahn and he would never have been sent to war if not for Tien.

 

From Shallan POV, I gathered that higher ranked darkeyes were mostly wealthy merchants. Her father though it improper they would have more money than a high ranked ligtheye family such as his.

 

I agree.  Tarah is most likely a camp follower of lower rank.  From a literary standpoint, I would bet that she will be a pitiable character, depending on the details of how Kaladin left her.  Kaladin right now is very likable for most readers, and it would be interesting if Brandon chooses to use this woman as a mechanism for shaking up our opinion of him a bit.

Edited May 13, 2014 by DeployParachute

[signspace13 he/him]

I had always assumed Tarah was a soldier like call than i actually thought about it and was like... "oh wait VORIN"

it is possible that Tarah was a prostitute, but i think if she was than Brandon would have mentioned something about her in the 'Adolin save a prostitute' scene of tWoK. I think she was probably a camp hanger on possibly a scribe of a decent nahn similar to Kal's own, and she watched him furiously practicing for awhile and asked him why he was so intense.

 

thus begins a relationship that Kal mucked up in a way only Kal can, so likely someone died.

[Plastic Misting]

It could potentially be a further plot point that Tarah conceived a child with Kaladin right before he kill the shardbearer.

 

Not likely, but I do think she has to become plot-relevant again in some way, and I don't really see how.

[jag519 he/him]

I didn't realize until right now that she wasn't in the army 

[Delightful]

Any chance she's dead?

 

Or living with Kal's parents, maybe in Kholin or Kharbranth, going with the whole Kaladin-son theory?

Edited May 13, 2014 by Delightful

[Aleksiel]

I haven't seen a single WoB about Tarah. She's darkeyed according to coppermind, though I don't know why, no reference provided.

 

edit: Not that I do not agree Tarah is most likely darkeyes, just saying it's not canon yet.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Left he/him]

I think Tarah is tied with Bavadin on how much we know about them. We know Kal cared for Tarah, we know Hoid has a grudge against Bavadin. Kal failed Tarah, Bavadin is/was a Shard holder.

[Guest]

Actually, lighteyes ranks are dahn while darkeyes ranks are nahn, with the tenth dahn outranking all nahn ranks:

 

 

Oh sorry, I always get those two confused

 

 

 

As far as i know there's no explicit case of darkeyed children 'losing' nahn ranks. Lirin implies the opposite, really:

 

 

As far as I know there's no reason to expect that Tien was anything besides second nahn, though it's possible that e.g. it's a title only passed to the inheritor, likely the eldest, and this is why Shallan is a rank below her father (while his heir may be the same rank).

 

I always thought children were a dahn/nahn lower than their parents..... We know Kal is of the second nahn, we know Shallan is of the fifth dahn whereas her father is of the fourth dahn.... We also know Adolin is the second or third dahn. We can guess Dalinar ranks pretty high, probably first or at the very least second dahn. Amaram is from the third dahn, it is impossible for Dalinar (or Sadeas) to have an equivalent rank with him. Therefore, I always assumed children were of a lower dhan/nahn, but they move up in the chain as they take on their elders responsibilities.

[HoidsRock]

Great discussion.  In fact, so great I registered for an account and this is my first post.

 

I am guessing the rules governing dahn or nahn are like the rules that have govern heretical stations throughout history:  rules are rules unless you have a lot of money or your own army in which case rules are suggestions.

 

One potential theory would be that all levels of dahn or nahn are stable but position can increase the rank.  With this idea, Shallan's father is fifth dahn like her but being a lord increases his dahn by one.  All of his children are fifth dahn but upon his death, Balat should have moved to fourth dahn ("should have," because they kept his death a secret).  Renarin is 2nd dahn, but had Sadeas plan in WoK worked, he would have moved to 1st dahn.

 

Tenner is reserved for those whose eyes are light but 1) their parents were tenner, 2) they were stripped of rank (like Dalinar wanted to do Roshone), or 3) they are disinherited (Balat predicted he would be tenner when he fled the estate).

 

Not sure I believe the theory but thought I would throw it out.

[Baine he/him]

I think Tarah is tied with Bavadin on how much we know about them. We know Kal cared for Tarah, we know Hoid has a grudge against Bavadin. Kal failed Tarah, Bavadin is/was a Shard holder.

 

...What? 

 

I... can't make sense of this...

Edited May 14, 2014 by Baine

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

It could potentially be a further plot point that Tarah conceived a child with Kaladin right before he kill the shardbearer.

 

Not likely, but I do think she has to become plot-relevant again in some way, and I don't really see how.

 

It's unlikely that Brandon would follow this Route. In all of his books to Date, all Sexual Relations have been between Married Couples. Or Gods. *Looks at blushweaver* He tends to Let hie Religion Control this part of his Characters.

[signspace13 he/him]

It's unlikely that Brandon would follow this Route. In all of his books to Date, all Sexual Relations have been between Married Couples. Or Gods. *Looks at blushweaver* He tends to Let hie Religion Control this part of his Characters.

 

It is true that all of the Sexual relations so far in his books have been between married couples (or in fact gods) but perhaps this is why he would do this, just so that he doesn't fall in to a trope.

 

...What? 

 

I... can't make sense of this...

 

I think he is saying that we know as much about Tarah as we know about Bavadin. We know that Hoid dislikes Bavadin and we know that Tarah is a past relationship of Kal's, that's about it. So anything else is really just speculation

[DeployParachute]

Any chance she's dead?

 

Or living with Kal's parents, maybe in Kholin or Kharbranth, going with the whole Kaladin-son theory?

 

On whether she is dead, let's go to the text which probably sheds the most light we get on the subject:

 

'Three Glyphs,' Ch 62, TWoK:

“No. I know I’m not.” He looked up at the overcast sky. “But that means the failures were all just me. I let Tien die, I failed my spearmen, the slaves I tried to rescue, Tarah…” He hadn’t thought of her in some time. His failure with her had been different from the others, but a failure it was nonetheless. “If there’s no curse or bad luck, no god above being angry at me—I have to live with knowing that with a little more effort—a little more practice or skill—I could have saved them.”

 

So hearkening back to my Sesame Street days, one of these groups is not like the other.  All of the examples Kaladin thinks of in relation to his failures have one thing in common: they died (granted, I'm making the assumption that the slaves died too, since we don't have text confirmation).  After mentioning those, he refers to Tarah, and how his failure was different from the others, but still a failure in his eyes.  This makes me feel with a high level of confidence that Tarah is not dead.  Whether she is important to any further plot development is another matter entirely...

 

It's unlikely that Brandon would follow this Route. In all of his books to Date, all Sexual Relations have been between Married Couples. Or Gods. *Looks at blushweaver* He tends to Let hie Religion Control this part of his Characters.

 

Correction: there are plenty of people in Brandon's worlds having extramarital sex, they just aren't his viewpoint or main characters.  His world building certainly recognizes that his human populations are, well, human, and that sexuality is a big part of our nature.  So as a result he makes sure to reference it in subtle ways like with soldiers and their whores etc.  But like you said, he chooses to keep that out of his main characters, and you could be right in that Brandon continues to follow that pattern owing to his own personal and religious beliefs.  However, I'd like to think that over the years I've seen him grow as a writer,  and he seems more open to exploring characters with alternative viewpoints to his own (Jasnah and her atheism/or agnosticism would be a good example).  In fact, he would probably even suggest that a writer must continue to grow by challenging himself/herself with things that may make an author personally uncomfortable.  

 

Writing a character to perform an action (like extramarital sex) doesn't mean he has to personally condone or advocate for it.  If it fits with the narrative and is part of the development of the plot and character in a way that makes the story intriguing, I'd like to think he'd do it without hesitation.

Edited May 14, 2014 by DeployParachute

[Numb]

I always imagined that Kal had a choice between being with Tarah or continuing with the army/his grudge. He couldn't let go of his hatred for Lighteyes/Roshone which eventually broke them apart. That being said we know basically nothing at this point.

[Delightful]

Oh sorry, I always get those two confused

 

 

 

I always thought children were a dahn/nahn lower than their parents..... We know Kal is of the second nahn, we know Shallan is of the fifth dahn whereas her father is of the fourth dahn.... We also know Adolin is the second or third dahn. We can guess Dalinar ranks pretty high, probably first or at the very least second dahn. Amaram is from the third dahn, it is impossible for Dalinar (or Sadeas) to have an equivalent rank with him. Therefore, I always assumed children were of a lower dhan/nahn, but they move up in the chain as they take on their elders responsibilities.

I don't have a quote to prove it, but I think that only the king is 1st nahn, leaving Dalinar and the other highprinces at 2nd, Amaram at 3rd. Adolin as heir is either 2nd or 3rd, if I'm correct. Is there any mention of Renarin's rank?

[Aether he/him]

Just popping in to come with some examples of extramarital sexual shenanigans:

• Dalinar and Navani
• Alrianne and Breeze
• Jewel and Clod (No, seriously!)
• Siri and Susebron (Sure, the latter is a god, the former not so much)
• Vin and Elend (before they got married)
• Plus prostitutes from the Way of Kings and Words of Radiance.

EDIT: I forgot Siri and Susebron were married. And while Jewel is mentally unstable, she was not married!

Edited May 14, 2014 by Aether

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

Siri ans Susebron Were Married and Jewel is mentally unhinged. You're right about Breeze and Alrianne though. Never thought about that. But how do you Know that Dalinar/Navani or Vin/Elend had Shenanigans? I always got the Vybe that they Didn't, Vin having Commitment Problems, and Dalinar being all, "She's my Brother's Wife! Gah! I'm going Claudius!"

 

Still, Good Point.

[Numb]

I don't remember it being suggested Vin and Elend has sex before they were married. She slept in his room often but it's never implied like when they wake up naked together later in the books.

[Left he/him]

I'd even say that it's suggested that they don't, although there is a little bit of wiggle room if you really want it. (Don't know why you would, but if you did, well then.....)

[Aether he/him]

Siri ans Susebron Were Married and Jewel is mentally unhinged. You're right about Breeze and Alrianne though. Never thought about that. But how do you Know that Dalinar/Navani or Vin/Elend had Shenanigans? I always got the Vybe that they Didn't, Vin having Commitment Problems, and Dalinar being all, "She's my Brother's Wife! Gah! I'm going Claudius!"Still, Good Point.

Reread the first page of the last Dalinar chapter of the Way of Kings. It's subtle, but the scene definitely takes place post sexy shenanigans.

I don't remember it being suggested Vin and Elend has sex before they were married. She slept in his room often but it's never implied like when they wake up naked together later in the books.

I think it was alluded to in the Annotations. But I think it is rather clear that they would. Vin wanted a relationship with Elend, but she was insistent on never getting married at this point.And yes, Siri and Susebron were married. I had forgotten. Edited May 14, 2014 by Aether

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

Well Siri and Susebron We're only Married in the Sense of Susebron Going, "I'm A god, I say we're married" So it's easy to miss.

[Sphinx]

I think it was alluded to in the Annotations. But I think it is rather clear that they would. Vin wanted a relationship with Elend, but she was insistent on never getting married at this point.

 

Where is this? I remember Breeze and Alrianne, but I don't remember allusions to Vin and Elend. I would find it odd that we suddenly start getting clearly post-sex scenes after they get married if those have been happening all along but just not shown. It's clear they sometimes sleep in the same room, but between Vin's paranoia, their incompatible sleep schedule, etc, I found it both believable and likely that they didn't have premarital sex.

 

 

I do think it's quite likely that Navani and Dalinar are. There's both Pattern offering to replicate their noises, and that one scene you mentioned.

[Aoibheann she/her]

I wonder if a question about Tarah would be answered in the question period at the end of the WoK reread?

Asking "Who is Tarah?" would probably get RAFO'd. Other possible questions:

was Tarah a lighteyes or darkeyes?

was Tarah someone Kaladin could/should have saved?

Other questions?

[Aether he/him]

Where is this? I remember Breeze and Alrianne, but I don't remember allusions to Vin and Elend. I would find it odd that we suddenly start getting clearly post-sex scenes after they get married if those have been happening all along but just not shown. It's clear they sometimes sleep in the same room, but between Vin's paranoia, their incompatible sleep schedule, etc, I found it both believable and likely that they didn't have premarital sex.

I might be mistaken about it being in the Annotations, but I still find it rather likely. Brandon is subtle about these things, and even if there is no scenes where they wake up naked together before after they were married, they still could have been sexually active. Remember that there is really no direct indications that Alrianne and Breeze had slept together either, other than OMG THEY SLEPT IN THE SAME BED! And even that probably wouldn't convince most Sharders unless it wasn't mentioned specifically in the Annotations.