[OB] Voidbinding?

[Kramerfarve]

Hey, remember reading in one of the posts on this site that in the Arcanum voidbinding has 10 forms. This got me thinking though, because in OB Moash said that he had seen 9 types of fused. What if voidbinding is not the surge system granted by the fused, but the surge system granted when a high spren enters a parshendi gem-heart, and the fused system is different entirely? Venli would be a true voidbinder, and Renarin is simply a human with the voidbinding surges? 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

2 minutes ago, Kramerfarve said:

Hey, remember reading in one of the posts on this site that in the Arcanum voidbinding has 10 forms. This got me thinking though, because in OB Moash said that he had seen 9 types of fused. What if voidbinding is not the surge system granted by the fused, but the surge system granted when a high spren enters a parshendi gem-heart, and the fused system is different entirely? Venli would be a true voidbinder, and Renarin is simply a human with the voidbinding surges? 

This is actually a pretty popular theory, if expressed differently than it usually is.

Many of us, including me and @Calderis, believe that what the Fused do is simply surgebinding, hacked to be fueled by voidlight. The reason there are only nine Fused could be because one of two reasons: 1) Moash never saw the 10th Fused because they're far more rare, which means they would probably be the Bondsmith-equivalent of Fused or 2) there are only 9 types of Fused because Odium didn't want to create a bondsmith Fused or that's just how the Fused work, since they're associated with Odium. 

Most of us think that the reason Renarin has weird stuff going on with him isn't because his spren Glys has been corrupted by Sja-Anat, making him partially a voidspren, which grants him the voidbinding version of the Illumination surge. This is because he has been shown to use Progression basically the same way as we've seen it used by Lift and has been unable to use Illumination as described by Shallan. Presumably, he would use this surge in a completely different way from normal Truthwatchers. In addition, since many people believe that normal Truthwatchers' Resonance is some sort of ability that allows them to see the truth, we believe that Renarin's future sight is his Resonance between the surgebinding and voidbinding surges he has.

I don't think that what Venli is doing is voidbinding. I think it's more likely that she's just becoming a normal Radiant. I think it would be weird if a normal Radiant spren could grant voidbinding while it took Glys being corrupted in order for him to do so.

Overall, this is a pretty good theory. I'm excited to see more from you!

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

2 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

hat what the Fused do is simply surgebinding, hacked to be fueled by voidlight. The reason there are only nine Fused could be because one of two reasons: 1) Moash never saw the 10th Fused because they're far more rare, which means they would probably be the Bondsmith-equivalent of Fused or 2) there are only 9 types of Fused because Odium didn't want to create a bondsmith Fused or that's just how the Fused work

I don’t think that’s what this guy is saying ? @Kramerfarve correct me if I’m wrong but I think what you. Are saying is this : Voidbinding is not surges that the Fused use , Voidbinding is the process that the singers use to assume the 9 forms of power! The singer takes in a voidspren and binds it to its gemheart becoming one of the nine types of Fused. This process can only be done during the everstorm , using Voidlight . This does not stop the Singers from using a highstorm to become a regal by using spren and the Stormfather . Like Eshonai did in WoR. She used an anger spren and Stormfather to become storm form . I have been actually working on this a while so I kind of get what u saying . Or I hope we on same page. There are other forms of power that we have not seen yet . They are not of Odium , I predict it was from the time before Odium came Eshonai says as much in WoR . Her exact words were “ most forms of power come from Odium “ most is not all . So to summarize Voidbinding could be the process a Fused. Takes to assume one of the 9 forms of power. It binds the Fused cognitive shadow and a voidspren into a singers body and that body assumes one of the 9 types Moash has seen. The surges the Fused use are actually surgebinding , they only seem to get one.

[Kramerfarve]

4 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

I don't think that what Venli is doing is voidbinding. I think it's more likely that she's just becoming a normal Radiant. I think it would be weird if a normal Radiant spren could grant voidbinding while it took Glys being corrupted in order for him to do so.

Overall, this is a pretty good theory. I'm excited to see more from you!

So what I was thinking here is that maybe the differences between voidbinding and surge binding aren’t as large as they seem, and that the difference is the parts of the spirit web that a spren affects, not the difference between spren; as we have not ever seen or even heard of 10  different sapient spren in Shadesmar, thus the difference lies in the species that the spren chose to bond. The perception of the spren and the bond tweaks the surge granted the individual. In the parshendi’s case, they view the spren in a more spiritual manner, granting them more spiritual versions of surges, while the philosophizing humans view the spren more cognitively and are granted cognitive versions of surges. In Renarin’s special case, it was the spren’s perception of itself that changed, and Renarin’s Bond was changed in kind.

[Calderis he/him]

Regal forms are not voidbinding. We saw stormform at the end of WoR, and in this WoB from after WoR, but before OB, we were told we hadn't seen Voidbinding yet. 

Quote

Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them.  I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one.  And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

source

Edit: and as a separate system, I believe the differences between Surgebinding and Voidbinding should be as stark as those between Allomancy and Feruchemy. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Calderis

[Kramerfarve]

Ahhh no Szeth, I do mean what Striker was talking about

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

40 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Regal forms are not voidbinding. We saw stormform at the end of WoR, and in this WoB from after WoR, but before OB, we were told we hadn't seen Voidbinding yet. 

Edit: and as a separate system, I believe the differences between Surgebinding and Voidbinding should be as stark as those between Allomancy and Feruchemy. 

I was not implying Regal forms was voidbinding . If the confusing way I said things gave you that impression my apologies. Voidbinding I propose is the process the Fused use to assume the 9 forms of power that they currently display . I’m not saying there is not a 10th form , there may we’ll be but for now all we see is 9. Regal can use the high storm and stormlight so this is not voidbinding more of the natural racial abilities. The difference is Regal abilities enhance their bodies in some ways but without a spren Regals have no access to surges. Regal can however form Nahel bonds. Voidbinders have no Nahel bonds yet can use surges but so far are limited to one surge . The power level between Regals and Fused seems to be almost doubled. Fused can survive hits from a shardblade for example and seem to have a constant connection to Odium which slowly feeds them Voidlight and allows them to heal over time . 

Im greatly interested in whether or not Fused will start to develop nahel bonds with voidspren Like Ulim. For now they scavenge dead shardplate and blades . I think they don’t feel it necessary  to try because if they are killed they can be reborn the next everstorm . However if Dalinar , Venli , and Rlain can start convincing Singers to leave the Fused cause then this may change . If Spren Like Syl can learn to copy honorblades , I don’t see why Ulim and his lot can’t do the same. 

I still believe that normal singers cannot access stormlight . Only Regals that is why the Fused need Moash to wield the honorblades . Fused cannot use stormlight as they Voidbind . And they don’t want Regals using stormlight as this may encourage them to form Nahel bonds. So they co-opted Moash 

[Lightspine]

4 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I was not implying Regal forms was voidbinding . If the confusing way I said things gave you that impression my apologies. Voidbinding I propose is the process the Fused use to assume the 9 forms of power that they currently display . I’m not saying there is not a 10th form , there may we’ll be but for now all we see is 9. Regal can use the high storm and stormlight so this is not voidbinding more of the natural racial abilities. The difference is Regal abilities enhance their bodies in some ways but without a spren Regals have no access to surges. Regal can however form Nahel bonds. Voidbinders have no Nahel bonds yet can use surges but so far are limited to one surge . The power level between Regals and Fused seems to be almost doubled. Fused can survive hits from a shardblade for example and seem to have a constant connection to Odium which slowly feeds them Voidlight and allows them to heal over time . 

Im greatly interested in whether or not Fused will start to develop nahel bonds with voidspren Like Ulim. For now they scavenge dead shardplate and blades . I think they don’t feel it necessary  to try because if they are killed they can be reborn the next everstorm . However if Dalinar , Venli , and Rlain can start convincing Singers to leave the Fused cause then this may change . If Spren Like Syl can learn to copy honorblades , I don’t see why Ulim and his lot can’t do the same. 

I still believe that normal singers cannot access stormlight . Only Regals that is why the Fused need Moash to wield the honorblades . Fused cannot use stormlight as they Voidbind . And they don’t want Regals using stormlight as this may encourage them to form Nahel bonds. So they co-opted Moash 

Personally, this theory doesn't seem to make much sense to me because the process through which Singers are taken over by Fused doesn't seem very different than the process that Singers use to assume a new form. Becoming a Fused is simply a more extreme version of this bonding. Spren and Cognitive Shadows are (by a WoB that i can't find) essentially the same, they're bits of sentient investure. Cognitive shadows like the Fused just have more investure/ a more complex spiritweb that, rather than bonding with the spiritweb of the Singer, ejects it. I don't see how this could be called it's own magic system. In addition, we saw Singers bonding spren before Oathbringer so @Calderis's WoB above should apply - the system Singers use to bond spren is not Voidbinding. Unless you have an argument for why being taken over by Fused is much different, I don't see your theory being the case.

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

22 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

Personally, this theory doesn't seem to make much sense to me because the process through which Singers are taken over by Fused doesn't seem very different than the process that Singers use to assume a new form. Becoming a Fused is simply a more extreme version of this bonding. Spren and Cognitive Shadows are (by a WoB that i can't find) essentially the same, they're bits of sentient investure. Cognitive shadows like the Fused just have more investure/ a more complex spiritweb that, rather than bonding with the spiritweb of the Singer, ejects it. I don't see how this could be called it's own magic system. In addition, we saw Singers bonding spren before Oathbringer so @Calderis's WoB above should apply - the system Singers use to bond spren is not Voidbinding. Unless you have an argument for why being taken over by Fused is much different, I don't see your theory being the case.

We are all looking for some entirely different form of magic . Earlier allomancy and ferachemy was brought up . Those systems while different do share a lot . All the metals have a ferachemical use and allomantic use for example. 

     To clarify what I’m saying is easy . I have done my homework on this . I could be wrong but it does make sense . 

Long ago the singers had many forms . They changed forms during a high storm by use of the Stormfather and a spren . Stormfather was here before the shard of honor arrived . When Honor arrived he adopted the Stormfather . Cultivation arrived . And then when the humans from ashyn came Odium followed . At this time humans bonded together with Honor . It could of been the Stormfather abandoning the singers that caused them to forget many of their forms . Or it could be that Odium introducesd them to voidbinding that caused them to forget the old forms . Why would u want scholar form , or art form when you had access to Envoyform and Smokeform. Both of which are superior to the singers old forms. 

I guess I’ll explain it like this :

Singer normal forms , the 5 we know of plus several they forgot .scholor form / artform etc. 

Regal forms granted by Odium : Envoyform , Smokeform, etc 

these forms it is possible to form nahel bonds but historically they haven’t

Voidbinding : links a cognitive shadow into a form of power. This form of power has access to one surge . This form of power runs on Voidlight . It is capable of withstanding an awesome amount of damage and even blows from a shardblade. It completely destroys the singers spirit web sending the singer to the beyond . 

Right now it is done during the everstorm 

There had to be a way it was done in the past . The Stormfather said the everstorm was new but of old design . Perhaps to voidbind in the past u needed the unmade  that was trapped by the Bondsmith or singers had a ritual where they sang a song and summoned the power to bind a Fused into one of There number who sacrificed themselves.

What I think everyone is missing is just Like with Hemalurgy their is an incredible cost . The Singer that body is used for Voidbinding is forever killed. Sent to the beyond . That kind of cost stinks to me if it’s own magic system . 

One rule that’s universal in fantasy books is that powerful magic has a cost . The greater the boon the greater the cost . Everyone is dismissing the fact that a singer is obliterated to make a Fused . Having knowing that , how can u say that this is not a separate magic system . That’s it’s similar to how regals form . IF VEnli doesn’t like Envoy form she change change to warform , smokeform or any of the other forms that have been rediscovered. I’m case  you guys missed in Oathbringer Venli spoke of several of the forms have now been rediscovered including scholar form 

“Her people had spent generations struggling to discover new forms, and here these people were given a dozen different options? How could they value that gift without knowin”

Excerpt From
Oathbringer
Brandon Sanderson
https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/oathbringer/id1198279804?mt=11
This material may be protected by copyright.

So what I’m saying is in summary none of the forms have access to surges or Voidlight but the Fused forms of Power. It comes at an incredible cost . While it seems the same as singers normal shapeshifting

It most certainly is not 

[Kramerfarve]

Szeth could it be out of the realm of possibility that out of the millenia of fighting, that whenever humans saw singers using surges that they labeled it “voidbinding” as an umbrella term? I personally don’t care which variation of surges should be properly titled such, I am merely trying to explain why renarin has special surges, speculate what surges Venli should receive, and answer why whenever someone glimpses into the future everyone points at Odium.

[Lightspine]

53 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Everyone is dismissing the fact that a singer is obliterated to make a Fused . Having knowing that , how can u say that this is not a separate magic system . That’s it’s similar to how regals form . IF VEnli doesn’t like Envoy form she change change to warform , smokeform or any of the other forms that have been rediscovered. I’m case  you guys missed in Oathbringer Venli spoke of several of the forms have now been rediscovered including scholar form 

Well, it does depend on how you define a "magic system." I think a decent definition would be a set of rules by which some powers are accessed. If you use this broad definition, then Singers bonding ordinary Spren to attain their non-powered forms are a magic system too. (but it's not the Old Magic, Surgebinding, or Voidbinding, rather, it seems to be an older more fundamental system created by Adonalsium - just like the chasmfiends and skyeels who also bond with spren). Something about the Singer's spiritwebs and the properties of the gemheart allow for a spren to be trapped within the gemheart and a bond to be formed. In the case of a Regal, the spren influence their spiritwebs through the bond, making their personalities change, but this isn't special - all the forms are associated with a personality change. The Fused enter the Singers by hijacking this system: likely, there is a perpendicularity of sorts formed during an Everstorm or Highstorm that allows spren or cognitive shadows to enter the Physical realm in a bond with the Singer. In the case of the Fused, they destroy the Singer, removing their spiritweb rather than simply altering it. I don't see why this necessarily must be a new system. If you're looking at it as a set of rules for Investure to follow, the rule seems to be "Singers can form a bond with sentient or semi-sentient investure.  The bonded investure is capable of changing the Singer's spiritweb." This rule doesn't have to be broken to allow for the Fused.

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

33 minutes ago, Kramerfarve said:

Szeth could it be out of the realm of possibility that out of the millenia of fighting, that whenever humans saw singers using surges that they labeled it “voidbinding” as an umbrella term? I personally don’t care which variation of surges should be properly titled such, I am merely trying to explain why renarin has special surges, speculate what surges Venli should receive, and answer why whenever someone glimpses into the future everyone points at Odium.

Thing is Brandon has confirmed voidbinding is a magic system on Roshar so we know it exists  we are not certain what it. Is. That’s my crazy theory on the Fused and most don’t agree .?when book 4 comes out remember I said it first .Seeing the future is the province of Odium or so many vorinist believe . So that’s why everyone thinks Renarin is bad .. Venli is in a unique position . She is a Regal so she has the abilities of her Regal form , which is she can speak any language . She also has enhanced strength dexterity and light carparace armor. Because she formed a nahel bond with Timbre , she has access to surges of a willshaper. And can possibly gain a shardblade . I like it because Timbre can hide and let the lesser voidspren take control . Which changes Venli eyes red so the Fused think she is loyal . Renarin has the surges of a truthwatcher plus his spren gives him visions of the future. Does this answer your questions 

[Kramerfarve]

1 minute ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Does this answer your questions 

No. The connection that I am drawing is that seeing the future is tied to voidbinding, and Renarin’s spirit web has not been replaced with that of his Spren. Thus I draw two things, 

One- Renarin is voidbinding in some sense of that term because he can see the future

Two- the fused are not operating under the same functions as renarinin that they are without one surge and they replace the spirit web of their host.

In response about Venli, I am merely speculating that her surges would be different from a human of her “order.”

[StrikerEZ he/him]

10 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Thing is Brandon has confirmed voidbinding is a magic system on Roshar so we know it exists  we are not certain what it. Is. That’s my crazy theory on the Fused and most don’t agree.

The thing is, there's also a WoB that says, before OB, we hadn't seen voidbinding yet. We had definitely seen Singers change forms before OB, so there's no way that that is voidbinding. Even the stormform or whatever it was called are not voidbinding because they were in WoR. As for the Fused, they're just hacking that same natural phenomenon (bonding spren) to inhabit the bodies of the Singers. What the Fused do feels just way too much like surgebinding for me to consider it voidbinding. 

[Calderis he/him]

Alright, this is going to be a rant. 

The Fused, in my opinion, aren't Voidbinding. There's a few reasons for that. What they do mimics Surgebinding almost exactly. And according to Khriss, that should not be the case. 

From the Rosharan Ars Arcanum. 

Quote

I’m not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can.

Voidbinding should not fit easily with Surgebinding, and yet things seem remarkably well aligned if that is what the Fused are doing. 

Next I'll draw attention to Renarin, as I believe that he is so far the only Voidbinding we've seen, even if his means of access is not typical to it. 

His use of Illumination seems to function differently than Shallan's. To the point that no matter how hard he's tried he says that he can't make illusions. This is the young man who jumped head first off of a building in Shardplate because he was told to. When he was told to practice his abilities, I doubt he just gave up after a couple failures. 

The Voidbinding chart in the back of tWoK has the ten surge glyphs with their symmetry altered to be rotational rather than simply mirrored. I think this is a representation of the surges themselves manifesting differently. The exact same glyphs with an altered expression. 

And that ties in to the last thing. On Scadrial the focus of the magic is metal. All three systems use metal for drastically different expressions. The most similar of the two are Allomancy and Feruchemy which have similar powers with similar metals, expressed in very clearly different ways. Hemalurgy reproduces these... But that is not the magic system of Hemalurgy. That system is the theft itself of the other powers. You use it to gain the other systems. 

I don't believe that Voidbinding, called by Brandon a different system, is going to just mimic surgebinding. We already have a magic system on Roshar that can reproduce the surges of both surgebinding and Voidbinding in fabrials. 

Quote

Questioner

Is, like, fabrials that can imitate, I mean, very specific forms of Surgebinding... Are there fabrials that can imitate the Surge-- <stages> of Voidbinding?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That is theoretically possible.

source

So I believe that Voidbinding should, as the altered glyphs of the Voidbinding chart show, reproduce the same surges with completely different expressions. So far, I think the only thing we've seen from that is Renarin. 

How Voidbinding is traditionally accessed I have absolutely no clue, but the Fused are too clearly using the same system in my mind to be Voidbinding. What minor differences there are, I think are a result of the fuel used to power it, and not the powers themselves, which I discuss here. 

 

[Kramerfarve]

Thx Calderis this was beginning to devolve into something it was never meant to be. Point of the post in two sentences was “is renarin voidbinding?” And “could surge alteration be tied to species?”

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

he Fused, in my opinion, aren't Voidbinding. There's a few reasons for that. What they do mimics Surgebinding almost exactly. And according to Khriss, that should not be the case. 

I totally agree with you here. I have never seen the charts you speak of but from your description that sounds feasible. 

1 hour ago, StrikerEZ said:

The thing is, there's also a WoB that says, before OB, we hadn't seen voidbinding yet. We had definitely seen Singers change forms before OB, so there's no way that that is voidbinding. Even the stormform or whatever it was called are not voidbinding because they were in WoR. As for the Fused, they're just hacking that same natural phenomenon (bonding spren) to inhabit the bodies of the Singers. What the Fused do feels just way too much like surgebinding for me to consider it voidbinding. 

Ok what we saw in WoR was Eshonai take. A Regal form. This was a natural system that the Singers have used since before Odium came. 

What we saw in Oathbringer When Venli got her envoy form and Demmed got taken over by a Fused . One was natural perversion by Odium . The other was unnatural. As it was never intended to rip the soul of the singer out and replacing it with a cognitive shadow.

the only conparasin I can make is on Scadrial where the Lord ruler use spikes to change mistwraiths into Kandira.  There is no perversion . Paalm totally perverted the system and created Chimera’s . 

Maybe it’s not voidbinding but i think it’s something very bad. On the level of Hemalurgy bad . But you can’t call it the same thing we saw in WoR . It Horrified Venli so much she might have been what turned her to Radiant side.

1 hour ago, Kramerfarve said:

Thx Calderis this was beginning to devolve into something it was never meant to be. Point of the post in two sentences was “is renarin voidbinding?” And “could surge alteration be tied to species?”

I’m sorry I totally misread where u was going . And that’s my fault . Renarin may not even be a truthwatcher . I feel comfortable until I see more calling him one , as he does have Regrowth . I was not aware he could not use illumination either , so perhaps because his spren is corrupted he doesn’t have it he has a voidsurge instead. For some reason Fortune reading the future is always seen as bad . 

[CrazyRioter she/her]

He does create a flash of light against the Thunderclast, so I think he's got some access to Illumination, though it does seem to be...weird. So maybe something else is going on there. Idk.

[Calderis he/him]

To continue my previous post with things that I left out... 

I think that the Forms of the Singers, void forms included, are a firm of organic fabrial. A spren enters a gemstone and an effect is produced. 

I think the Fused hack this system as well to take over the body. 

5 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

He does create a flash of light against the Thunderclast, so I think he's got some access to Illumination, though it does seem to be...weird. So maybe something else is going on there. Idk.

He does have Illumination... He I just think he has the Voidbinding form. 

13 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Renarin may not even be a truthwatcher .

He is a Truthwatcher. Surgebinders existed before the Orders. The Orders are the organizations. He is a Truthwatcher so long as he is accepted by the others, the same as squires are Windrunners even before they bond a spren. 

And this is the Voidbinding chart. 

 

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

Thank you for the chart , having seen that forces me to rethink my theory . I’m stingy with my upvotes because everyone else is but I can’t help but give. You one . I never considered an organic fabrial before. I like the way u say they hack the system , it’s a clearer way of expressing what I was thinking . I hope he hurried up and reveals more about that chart as a race the Singers are the most intriguing  in the Cosmere . Kandra are cool , Koloss are not interesting .and the Aimians are not developed yet . But these Singers are a work of art.  Can’t wait for the next book