[Theory] Radiants' Passive Abilities

[Aoibheann she/her]

Argent, I'm totally on board with the theory. In some ways it seems the extra ability may be unique to each surgebinder.  

 

The quote about Lightweavers (from Chapter 49 epigraph)

These Lightweavers, by no coincidence, included many who pursued the arts; namely: writers, artists, musicians, painters, sculptors.  Considering the order's general temperament, the tales of their strange and varied mnemonic abilities may have been embellished.
 - From Words of Radiance, chapter 21, page 10

This leads me to believe that the Shallan's ability to take memories is due to the synergy between her lightweaving, drawing abilities and her transformation. 

[adbf he/him]

about Kaladin - the thing that stinks of supernatural grade ability is his fighting ability, but not all aspects of it. Such important aspect of fighting skill as reading the enemy and predicting his moves, is something that Kaladin doesn’t have at all in the beginning of his story and that he apparently got the hard way, by very long experience, like every veteran. When Kaladin encounters a differently behaving enemy he is still baffled at first and had to struggle to adapt. Neither does Kaladin have the instinct to detect and counter unexpected moves against him - another very important part of fighting skill. The fighting spirit is also something that has to come to him through him being utterly broken, but in Hearthstone and before Tien’s death he doesn’t express anything of it. It’s a very specific part of fighting art, that he is instinctively super-capable.

 

And this specific capability has to be manifested also in non-fighting situations.

 

One of his most astounding feats is how easy does Kaladin adapt to the suddenly changed speed and strength during toe very first battle he has to use it. Brandon is very aware how change in speed and strength causes problem to adapt - it’s perfectly shown many times regarding Shardbearers and their problems to adapt to their new speed and strength. Kaladin just does it, as if he used to move so his whole life. The same instinctive adaptability to very new for him conditions of movement is seen when he begins to run on walls and especially when he begins to fly. Szeth with all his experience, when his actions should be already in his muscle memory is calculating, how many lashing he will need for this or this move. Kaladin doesn’t need to calculate anything, he just knows how much force to apply and in what direction, and he copes even better if he doesn’t think of it at all. As if Kaladin is the more experienced one in this ability than Szeth.

 

Another thing is how fast does Kaladin adapt to a new weapon, i.e. to new reach, shape, weight, balance. The normal thing here is that on will overbalance himself, will misjudge reach and momentum, normally a unusual weapon will do what it wants, not what you want it to do. But the very first time Kaladin gets a quarterstaff in his hands (and it’s the first weapon at all he wields) he knows exactly where the staff will land if he is swinging it or lunging with it, and most astoundingly, the staff really goes exactly where Kaladin wants it. And when Syl becomes a Shardplate, he is surprisingly well adapting to the changing length and shape of his weapon - he never used a sword before, and I doubt he trained with a halberd, but he uses Syl in these forms as efficiently as if he is expert in all these weapons, exactly when he is needing all that.

 

His grace and balance - yes, he is surprisingly graceful the first time he is fighting on a boulder tumbling around through the sky. But there is no grace at all when he is on horseback. Because the horse is moving deliberately, and Kaladin needs experience as the next man to start feeling the horse’s intentions, but if the moving thing is moved by physical forces only, Kaladin is reading it instinctively. I guess Kaladin would cope surprisingly well on a ship during a storm too.

 

Also Kaladin’s ability to assess the movement of many objects in the same time from all sides. Also in situations very new to him, like his chase after Szeth in the Highstorm with all the stuff flying around.

 

As manipulation of gravitation is essentially intimate relations of directions of physical force (and dynamical changes of said directions), all aforementioned abilities of Kaladin could be defined as his instinctive ability to assess and apply of classical mechanics - such things as momentum, torque, moment of inertia etc.

[Rybal]

I think Windrunners passive ability may be in their ability to form squads/Squires. We haven't read about any other order having these pseudo-radiants. 

 

What about the probable Releaser/Dustbringer in Dalinar's flashback early on in this book?

[Musica she/her]

Interesting theory. I have a question, though. Do we have any reason to believe that Syl's tendency to "bind things" is any different from any other Honorspren's? Or reare Pattern's mimicry abilities different from those of any other Cryptic? If not, then these passive abilities would be the same for all Radiants of a single Order. This doesn't really pose a problem to the theory in and of itself, except possibly in the case of the Windrunners. It would really seem to me that this sort of "bonding" would really be an ability of Bondsmiths rather than Windrunners. However, if it is true that each Order has one ability for each surge, then it could make sense that both Kaladin and Dalinar have this ability. However, then it would raise the question of what Kaladin's passive gravitational surge ability is. I'm trying to think of some sort of passive gravitational ability, but am blanking at the moment. Perhaps someone else will have more insight.

 

Maybe Gravitation expresses itself by literally making people drawn to you? Kaladin does tend to raise rather strong responses from people- really strong loyalty from the former bridgemen, admiration from fellow soldiers, trust from his commanders\those above him in the chain of command, dislike\caution from people like Sadeas and Amaram, annoyance-turned-trust and (sort of) friendship from Adolin... and I didn't even mention Shallan and Renarin.

And it started from his childhood- look at Tien, Laral, and whats-his-name Roshon's son. He always finds himself in the thick of events one way or another..

 

What'dya think?

 

Edit: we have Teft's word at the end of WoK that Stormlight doesn't grant ability\skill (in relation to Kaladin's skiil with the spear) , but perfect it. Also, at the end of WoR when Kaladin decides to save Elhokar and fights the 'guards' when he tries to get the both of them to safety, he thinks to himself that at least now he knows that he is capable of fighting even without the bond with Syl (as is also shown in the fight with the chasmfiend). The Nahel bond might make it easier for him to pick things up, it might perfect his skill and grant him advantage and supernatural feel for the battleground, as the Windrunners are very combat-oriented in their abilities, but most of it is simply him and his natural affinity for weapons.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Dreamer

[Youngy he/him]

I would suggest Spatial Awareness as Kaladins non-Stormlight ability.

At times he comments on that he could fight with his eyes closed - and the way he so narrowly avoids so many attacks.

Neither of those two by itself are special. But together... They indicate something more.

[Chlehrma]

What about the probable Releaser/Dustbringer in Dalinar's flashback early on in this book?

It could have been a dustbringer or an edge dancer. We do not see a sign of her using a surge other than friction.

[Moogle]

It could have been a dustbringer or an edge dancer. We do not see a sign of her using a surge other than friction.

 

Her armor glowed red. Dustbringers have ruby for their associated gemstone. Kaladin glows blue, and he has sapphires for his associated gemstone. Stonewards glow amber, and they have topaz for their associated gemstone. It has to be a Dustbringer that Dalinar saw.

[Argent he/him]

Her armor glowed red. Dustbringers have ruby for their associated gemstone. Kaladin glows blue, and he has sapphires for his associated gemstone. Stonewards glow amber, and they have topaz for their associated gemstone. It has to be a Dustbringer that Dalinar saw.

 

Yea, this is sound logic. Knowing that all Orders get glowing eyes matching the color of their respective gems, and having seen some Orders' Plate glow the same matching color, it's a pretty safe argument from induction.

[Falconite]

I do suspect that the Knights Radiant have some form of powers not granted by their spren...

Examples of this include (sorry I don't have the exact quote with me from tWoK):

In tWoK - Kaladin fighting so well BEFORE he has said any words, before he has attracted Syl, and before the bond develops. I remember a piece at the start when Cenn was wounded - and he saw Kaladin fighting down the enemy spearmen - he thought he saw the wind warping around Kaladin as he moved the spear... (granted this could potentially have been in the early days when Syl was attracted to him, however Kaladin was not bonded at that point and had said no oaths).

In WoR - Dalinar does not bond the Stormfather until the end of the book. In Chapter 8 - page 125 in my book there is the following:

Dalinar narrowed his eyes at the battlefield, reading it. "No," he said softly. The general stopped giving orders. Aladar glanced at Dalinar. "The Parshendi are preparing to pull back," Dalinar said. "They certainly don't act like it". "They want some room to breathe,"Dalinar said, reading the swirl of combat below...

The first time I read this, I thought this might mean Dalinar's experience in plateau runs allowed him to see their tactics, but when read in conjunction with the epigraph from chapter 58 about Melishi and the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths (e.g. he developed a new strategy)... I think that the Bondsmiths can read battles, develop strategies etc (this links to other people who have suggested Dalinar is more tactical in nature etc)...

The problem being - when Dalinar did this initially - he wasn't a bondsmith, he was unbonded, and had said no oaths... And this then made me think of Kaladin fighting so well before he was bonded...

I do think that these traits are something to do with their surges, but the bond - not so much... The only thing I can think of is that their respective spren chose them before the bond was developed, e.g. Syl was attracted to Kaladin for protecting the young spearmen, and the Stormfather sent Dalinar visions etc - so maybe the bond was already developing? It doesn't feel right though...

*Edit* apologies for the lack of formatting, for some reason my browser is playing up.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Falconite

[Argent he/him]

Except Syl kind of was around when Kaladin was still in Amaram's army. Multiple times throughout both books she reminds Kaladin of his days as the Stormblessed, wishing he would go back to the way he was back then. And Dalinar... that's a fickle argument you make there.

[Frostlander]

Argent, I'm totally on board with the theory. In some ways it seems the extra ability may be unique to each surgebinder.  

 

The quote about Lightweavers (from Chapter 49 epigraph)

This leads me to believe that the Shallan's ability to take memories is due to the synergy between her lightweaving, drawing abilities and her transformation. 

 

Looking at these two (and possibly three) quotes, I definitely think there is something there.

 

 

The considerable abilities of the Skybreakers for making such amounted to an almost divine skill, for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity, but however the order came to such an aptitude, the fact of it was real and acknowledged even by their rivals. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3

 

 

These Lightweavers, by no coincidence, included many who pursued the arts; namely: writers, artists, musicians, painters, sculptors. Considering the order’s general temperament, the tales of their strange and varied mnemonic abilities may have been embellished. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 21, page 10

 

 

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 30, page 18

 

The first two certainly, and possibly the third, each show this extra, mysterious ability. May be related to "the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties?"

 

I also see a parallel to what Melishi is doing and what Dalinar did when he read the battlefield and persuaded Aladar to change his strategy. Dalinar also became more of a general that day, noting that Adolin would lead the battles from then on.

 

We may not have enough pieces yet to put all of this together, but I think Argent is onto something.

[aheerema he/him]

While I agree that som of Kaladin's skills likely come from his Nahel bond, let's not discount his natural (god-given and self-trained) abilities altogether. Kaldin showed natural aptitude with the staff in the flashback in WOK (when he was still in the village), which I would assume was before he encounterd Syl. Also, don't forget, Kaladin was able to kill a large chasmfiend without any access to Syl and her abilities, as far as I can tell. Granted, he had Shallan distracting the beast and he had a shardlade at the end, but it took 3 full shardbearers to do the same in WOR. I admit Elhokar (one of the three full shardbearers)was a bit of a distraction, but Dalinar and Adolin also had Saldeas with a shardbow, and numerous muggles shooting arrows as well.

 

Long story short, I have a hard time attributing Kaladin's baddassery entirely to his Nahel bond. Kaladin admittedly learned quicker than most, but I believe it has been stated multiple times that he trained more, and harder, than most others.

 

C'mon folks, let's give some credit where credit is due!

 

A response, from Syl:

Words of Radiance, Chapter 52:

 

"It's like when I first picked up a spear," Kaladin whispered. "I was just a child. Were you with me back then? All that time ago?"

"No," Syle said, "and yes."

"It can't be both."

"It can. I knew I needed to find you. And the winds knew you. They led me to you."

"So everything I've done," Kaladin said. "My skill with the spear, the way I fight. That's not me. It's you."

"It's us."

"It's cheating. Unearned."

"Nonsense," Syl said. "You practice every day."

"I have an advantage."

"The advantage of talent," Syl said. "When the master musician first picks up an instrument and finds music in it that nobody else can, is that cheating? Is that art unearned, just because she is more naturally more skilled? Or is it genius?"

 

 

Regarding the passive abilities associated with the Windrunners, I think combat is one, as evidenced in the quote above, and I think the other is an affinity for heights, for falling, flying, and the sky:

 

Words of Radiance, Chapter 86:

 

"...The wind is mine. The sky is mine. They have been mine since childhood."

 

Way of Kings, Chapter 43:

A short time later, Kaladin stood at the edge of the chasm, looking down. The hot light of the noon sun burned the back of his neck and cast his shadow downward into the rift, to join with those below. I could fly, he thought. Step off and fall, wind blowing against me. Fly for a few moments. A few, beautiful moments.

 

Also, Kaladin mentions somewhere that even as a kid he loved climbing trees, or cliffs, or rocks, or something tall.

Edited March 26, 2014 by aheerema

[Falconite]

 

Except Syl kind of was around when Kaladin was still in Amaram's army. Multiple times throughout both books she reminds Kaladin of his days as the Stormblessed, wishing he would go back to the way he was back then. And Dalinar... that's a fickle argument you make there.

 

I know - it's a bit of a conundrum... I'm happy to accept Kaladin either way, because Syl kind-of was there at the time, unbonded perhaps, but there... but the piece about Dalinar is just plain odd... it's a unique ability of the bondsmiths (as evidenced by the chapter epigraph) and he displayed it well before any bonding of the Stormfather... that being said, by sending Dalinar visions from as early as book one - had the Stormfather somewhat "chosen" him reluctantly? I don't have an answer...

The other piece that is kind of odd about Dalinar - after he injures his shoulder in battle and the surgeon/healer (I forget what word was used in the book) - she asks him how many times he's been injured, and implies that he shouldn't even be able to use his arm at all from the scar tissue etc!

Accordingly, I wonder if it's possible for potential KRs to manifest some abilities (e.g. improved healing - not stormlight healing per se, but improved healing) before any interaction with spren...

[Aoibheann she/her]

I think Dalinar was in the process of binding the Stormfather as his spren during WoK:

Kindle version page 380 emphasis from the book. 

The sick feeling returned.

Life ended so quickly.  The Shardbearer was destruction incarnate, the most powerful force on a battlefield.  Once these weapons meant protecting, a voice inside him whispered.

[cut]

Life before death.

What was that voice?

 

 

By the end of WoR the Stormfather seems annoyed that it took Dalinar so long to say the Words. 

[Moogle]

I think Dalinar was in the process of binding the Stormfather as his spren during WoK:

Kindle version page 380 emphasis from the book. 

 

By the end of WoR the Stormfather seems annoyed that it took Dalinar so long to say the Words. 

 

I do not agree that this is the Stormfather. It doesn't fit his half-mad personality. I'd guess it's probably Honor's voice from his visions (which he originally had forgotten) or something.

[Numb]

The stormfather was the one sending the visions though. That could be part of the "bonding" process. 

[Aoibheann she/her]

What caused Honor's voice then?  This is after Honor's death.  The visions were sent by the Stormfather.  The voice does not appear to be Dalinar's internal voice, it is "other" causing Dalinar's " What was that voice?" remark. 

[Grayv he/him]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the passive ability of the skybreakers is "debate". A little corny if you ask me but if you look at the in-world Words of Radiance chapter 28 page 3, it kind of flows this way if you see them as two paragraphs, one after the other.

[Moogle]

What caused Honor's voice then?  This is after Honor's death.  The visions were sent by the Stormfather.  The voice does not appear to be Dalinar's internal voice, it is "other" causing Dalinar's " What was that voice?" remark. 

 

I interpret this as Dalinar unconsciously remembering his visions from Honor. He originally forgot them. It's a weird passage.

[Aoibheann she/her]

 

He stood atop the hill, looking eastward, toward the Origin. His eyes went that direction so often. Why?

I think this is the connection to the Stormfather. It's not a bond, yet.

[Seloun]

I do not agree that this is the Stormfather. It doesn't fit his half-mad personality. I'd guess it's probably Honor's voice from his visions (which he originally had forgotten) or something.

 

Actually, I think it might be Syl's voice. Given the WoB about looking for squires in TWoK - the only person near Kaladin that seems to glow is Dalinar. What if Dalinar is the squire? Note Dalinar glows when protecting Elhokar and the bridgemen, both of which would be covered under the Windrunner aspect.

 

That'd explain why he doesn't recognize the Stormfather's voice - they're different voices.

[Bramble Thorn]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the passive ability of the skybreakers is "debate". A little corny if you ask me but if you look at the in-world Words of Radiance chapter 28 page 3, it kind of flows this way if you see them as two paragraphs, one after the other.

 

I saw it as the ability to detect those who had broken a law (or a specific law).

[Confused]

@Chlehrma, it looks like you are focusing more on the divine attributes themselves, and that's something I specifically didn't want to do (my Kaladin write-up notwithstanding). Both Lift's and Ym's (assuming he would've been an Edgedancer, which sounds likely, but not guaranteed) could be attributed to just plain ol' human compassion and empathy. Same with Kaladin's leadership (which means I mostly retract my original write-up, I'll revise it), Shallan's (artistic) creativity. and Jasnah's wisdom and careful consideration. I guess what I am saying is that you need those attributes in order to attract the appropriate spren and begin the bonding process. Maybe the Nahel bond enhances them - but that's not my point at all. The time Kaladin spoke the Words of the Second Ideal, he thought that Stormlight can't give you something you don't already have; Stormlight perfects. 

 

My idea was that each Order's members get an ability that can be used without the need for Stormlight. Shallan doesn't need it for taking Memories. Jasnah doesn't seem to need it for orientation. Kaladin... what does Kaladin do that seems like a magical ability, but doesn't require Stormlight? And, honestly, I don't know - he is a really good soldier, so both his fighting and leadership could be mostly natural; Syl certainly helps, at least with the former, but I am not sure if this counts (mostly because he seemed to have a natural talent even back when he was a young teen).

 

Argent, why not focus on each Order's Divine Attributes? I think the answer Brandon gave you at the signing was intended to focus you on these Attributes:

 

Q:  Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah seems to have a really powerful geolocation thing, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on?

A:  There is something supernatural about those....

Q:  So it's definitely tied to the Orders?

A:  It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with the Order, things that do not add up from simply the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires is abnormal for the Windrunners.

Q:  And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'?

A:  Yeah... some Orders don't have them.

Q:  But some have more?

A:  Yeah.

 

By mentioning the number of Windrunner squires, compared to those of other orders, Brandon was emphasizing Windrunner "leadership/protection" Attributes, not their fighting ability. Kaladin's leadership goes beyond mere talent - he's the only darkeyes captain ever (and it's not just a reward for his exemplary service).

 

In Jasnah's case, it is her extraordinary scholarship ability ("wisdom"), together with her secondary attribute of "carefulness" - never jumping to conclusions, which she often cautions Shallan against. Navani and Shallan say Jasnah's "never wrong." Again, not "mere" brilliance.

 

Shallan's Lightweavers were artists (in the broadest sense) - people who have exceptional pattern recognition skills (hence, the bond with Cryptics), who can find order in chaos. Prodigious memory often accompanies such people (like the musician playing by ear a piece he has just heard or a writer remembering line after line of something she has read once or a chessplayer who can play thirty simultaneous games while blind-folded). Memory is simply a part of the artist's primary attribute of "creativity." Shallan also has startling artistic skill - even Jasnah and Mraize are surprised, almost shocked, at how truly talented Shallan is. There's also the creativity she applies to the various situations she finds herself in, like hiding inside a "boulder" or a fake wall while avoiding the Ghostbloods.

 

And when Shallan wants to - natural phenomena, for example - Shallan exhibits astonishing fidelity to her subjects - how she can render them exactly as they appear - also a form of "honesty." One might argue that Shallan's skill brings out the "truth" of her subjects, as she did with the deserters, again a form of honesty.

 

I agree with Chlehrma's analysis of Ym and Lift and the "loving/healing" Attributes. And Dalinar's "pious/giving" Attributes are almost self-explanatory. The point is, none of these derive from their "surgebinding" powers; instead, they are the "something else" that Brandon alludes to. They are the "something else" that the various in-book Words of Radiance epigraphs cite: the Skybreaker's "almost divine skill" for making judgments of guilt and innocence "for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity"; and Melishi's process "related to the very nature of the Herald and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address."

 

That's my take, anyway...

Edited April 5, 2014 by Confused

[Argent he/him]

It's certainly a valid take, but it's not how I saw - and still see - things. You are making the argument that each Order essentially exhibits an improved version of their divine attributes - so a Windrunner would be a supernaturally good leader and protector, a Lightweaver would be... supernaturally honest and creative, and so on. Maybe that's so, but I see those things as prerequisites, not results of the Nahel bond - Kaladin had develop into an extraordinary leader and protector to attract an honorspren in the first place, and the bond that came from that attraction is what allows him to develop the actual passive magical abilities I talk about (e.g. supernatural grace, to take one example). Similarly Jasnah had to meet a certain "threshold" of wisdom and carefulness in order to begin attracting Ivory - her, and every Elsecaller's spren, cannot possibly be attracted by any person who exhibits wisdom and care; you'd have to be the equivalent of the 1%, one of the most wise and careful people, to catch the eye of an Elsecaller's spren. So once that threshold was met, Ivory could start forming the bond and interact with Jasnah.

 

Maybe the divine attributes are both a cause and effect of the Nahel bond... both I find this somewhat boring. 

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Besides, it seems to me like Shallan's Memories aren't really just an enhanced version of her Creativity or Honesty, but a tool to use for both. Similarly, Kal's extraordinary battle perception and grace is a tool to aid him in Protecting others, and his squires are a tool in Leading. The Skybreaker's abilities in rooting out sin is a tool to help them be Just. The Truthwatcher's future sight is a tool to make them more Learned. The passive abilities don't just enhance the pre-existing traits. Sure, they can be used that way, but they're separate from them – battle skills can be used to kill, and one don't necessarily have to do anything once they find out a crime.