Syl - a different take (full book spoilers)

[Arkennys]

First of all, something of a warning.  There is no hard evidence to be had here, as this is an entirely subjective interpretation of a character - one that I feel is almost certainly opposed to Mr. Sanderson's intentions, and contrary to what most people believe. I hope there is room for something like this here.


I believe Syl is at worst actually malevolent - and I'm thinking of the indirect, insidious type, not the 'torture kittens and murder everything' version - or at best morally neutral and extremely creepy.

As soon as I started reading WoR, I immediately felt something was wrong with her. It took me a long time to put what my problem is into words, and I also find it difficult to make a case for it, due to the nature of the wrongness. You see, my argument is top down, not bottom up. What I mean by that is that I am not finding clues, and then coming to a realisation based on them. Instead, I have a sense of evil that is present in virtually every scene with Syl, but is rather formless. The only thing I can do is to point out what seems off every time. However, taken individually, all of these concerns are weak and very easy to accept, explain, or dismiss. What I consider to be the true picture is only apparent if you take all of it together, in context; this is why I name it insidious.


Before I get to the point, I have to make two assumptions about the nature of Syl clear. She is a character in a meaningful way, and she has a level of control over the bond. Everything else is based on this, therefore if I am wrong here, I am wrong in everything.

Syl is a character: it is not uncommon in fantasy (typical examples include the sidhe and divine beings, like angels) and science fiction (shackled AI, for instance), that a being is bound by rules, cosmic or otherwise, or their own nature, very, very tightly. Specific examples would be the Mothers from the Dresden files, or Sazed from the Cosmere. The latter holds two shards, so he should be a force to be taken seriously, yet because those shards are opposites, he finds it hard to act. The point here is that these beings will normally have a personality, yet it is practically irrelevant. What they are allowed to do and say is controlled to such an extent, that the personality is little more than a coat of paint. These individuals can be recurring, or supporting cast, if used sparingly, but they can't function as a focus for a story. Based on what we know of how spren work, it isn't impossible that they fall in this category, but I doubt it. To say nothing more, it is mentioned that Syl came to our realm despite what her people thought, which clearly shows she has a certain level of freedom, and that not all honourspren will make the same decisions.

Syl's control of the bond: I don't think this is like flipping a switch, or even necessarily deliberate on her part. Furthermore, it seems clear that she can't advance the bond on her own. At the same time, I get the impression that breaking it, or weakening it, is something she can very much do - perhaps through how she views Kaladin. If she strongly disapproves, the bond weakens. There is no explicit mention of this in the text, but several conversations imply it. For instance, at the duelling grounds when Kaladin attacks Adolin for the second time, and Stormlight leaves him, or at the end when Syl speaks about how spren require checks. Finally, though this is an outside view, if this is not the case, then Syl doesn't have agency, which would significantly reduce her value as a character.


Lastly, before I get into what I've seen in WoR, I have to point out a few things from WoK. Back then, Syl was by far my favourite character, and the reveal at the end that she is honourspren fit everything perfectly. In no particular order:
1. She was acting in every way like Kaladin's equal. They had conversations, and they even made some decisions together. She advised him, and helped him, but didn't order, or require.

2. Syl genuinely and passionately cared about Kaladin. Not merely about what he was doing, but about the man himself. Her concern for him practically shone through the pages. She 'held off' the highstorm to protect him, and 'fought off' the deathspren.  How much practical effect either of those had is irrelevant, the gesture was clear.

3. She had initiative. She was doing things on her own, creatively even. The most obvious example would be fetching the poison leaf for Kaladin.

4. She was considering things, and making decisions. This is very important. She didn't have knee-jerk reactions. With the bribe for Gaz, for instance, she ended up making the obvious choice, but it was a choice.

5. She was fairly tolerant. When Kaladin explained what was happening with the apothecary she accepted it. Kaladin didn't immediately want to go back to help Dalinar on the Tower. When he hesitated, Syl made her opinion clear, yet didn't mind the fact that he had to think about it for a moment.


I think at this point it is fairly obvious what I'm getting at, so I won't pick apart every single scene with Syl in WoR, but I will highlight the most important ones. There are three primary changes, once again in no particular order (all of this is before their bond ever starts to weaken):
1. Life leaves her. She largely stops making observations, comments, decisions. She becomes shockingly passive and numb to what's around her.
Example: Kaladin attempts to have a serious conversation with her about what is right, most notably regarding fighting the listeners. Syl has nothing to add. The problem here isn't that she can't come up with a good answer, it's that she ignores the issue completely.

2. Her relationship with Kaladin changes. She no longer acts like a friend/companion/partner. She starts to have requirements for Kaladin, without in any way working with him. She declares that he needs to stop being depressed and be happy, yet she doesn't show a fraction of the empathy and understanding she had in the previous book. She doesn't in any way try to help him in this. She makes her will known, and gets increasingly annoyed when it doesn't magically happen.
Example: She knows exactly what Amaram has done and what Kaladin feels, but never tries to help him get over it. She wants him to stop dwelling on it and not to seek revenge, which is fair enough in and of itself, but she handles is horribly. She offers no alternative, or support. She tells him how things will have to be, and that's that. This is especially worrisome, because even if he managed, by some inhuman effort, to live up to this, that would definitely harm him more than practically anything else before.

3. Something of a combination of the previous two, yet essential, and deserving special mention. Her passionate concern for Kaladin is gone. She says she is worried, and she says she wants him to be happy, but her actions never back this up. Indeed, she doesn't seem to get nearly as emotional as before. The only time she becomes animated is when she talks of Dalinar. If I wouldn't know better, I could think she is bonded to him, not Kaladin.
Example: Syl insists that Kaladin should tell Dalinar about Amaram, however her priorities are in the wrong place. This isn't important to her because she believes this is the best for him, or that this is their best chance to seek justice, but rather it's about how awesome and great and trustworthy Dalinar is. Even after Dalinar dismisses it and pretty much says to their face that he doesn't believe it, Syl still defends him. She clearly isn't interested in helping Kaladin, she is cheerleading for Dalinar.


Finally, let's talk about what happens when the bond starts to weaken, and then break. There are three possibilities offered for why this happens, and it is never made explicitly clear which is the real reason. It could be any, or a combination of any.
1. Kaladin betrays his oath to protect.
2. Kaladin has made two conflicting promises, and will have to break one for sure.
3. Kaladin is acting differently from what his conscience says.

2. Either this is not resolved in any way, since he does break one promise, if we look at it this way; or speaking the Words somehow frees him from this issue. The latter option seems more likely, especially since the idea that conflicting promises are a problem is introduced by Syl, who then uses this to push for speaking the Words. It seems clear that Kaladin made a mistake here, but what is more noteworthy is that Syl immediately jumped on this, and used it as leverage to further pressure him towards speaking the Words, which was her agenda for the entire book.

As for the other two, we have to consider what Kaladin is actually doing first. Up until the duel when he had to help Adolin, Kaladin showed remarkable restraint, both with Amaram and the king. Asking for a boon was stupid and wrong, yet it must be said that he did this after Dalinar apparently failed him, and he was trying to work within the legal system as much as possible. At this point, the king did something incredibly petty and idiotic - as he himself later admits -, which made Kaladin go into brooding overdrive. In his dark mood, he decided to off the king. At this point the bond starts to break, rapidly. This might sound logical, but it isn't. We need to keep going. Kaladin gets out of prison, tells Moash that he is with them... and then nothing happens. This is the crucial thing to understand. While he was in prison, he was angry enough to seriously consider killing the king, and then made a promise to that effect. Except you have to remember, Moash is his only friend, and by now, as I pointed out, even Syl is acting all wrong. In hindsight, it's clear he is just blowing off some steam. Consider: he never in any way acts on this. He doesn't change guard rotation, doesn't do anything to increase the chance of success of an assassination attempt. More tellingly, he spends the entire rest of the book thinking on this, and trying to rationalise it. It's clear even he knows this is wrong - when Dalinar's force is moving out, and he learns Moash is in charge of the king's guard, he becomes nervous and agitated, and not with anticipation. This is days before he finally fully decides where he stands, by the way.

Now that we know this, let's address 1 and 3.
1. This is pretty straightforward, he has some thoughts that go against it, but it never at any point manifests. It could be argued that even internal wavering is too much, but that's part of the creepiness, and I'll address that scenario later.
3. This is even better. All of his wavering, doubt, and attempts at rationalisation are the work of his conscience. This is exactly what it means to have one. The statement 'he isn't doing what he thinks is right' is only possible because of all the uncertainty. If he just 100% decided to kill the king and never thought about it again, that might break the bond, but the not because of what is written in 3.

Syl: I don't want to force you to do anything. You have to do what you think is right.
Kaladin: That's what I'm trying to do!
Syl: No. I don't think you are.

This exchange is nonsense. The operative word is trying. Syl isn't saying what is on the page. What she expects isn't for Kaladin to simply do the right thing, he has to do it without doubt, without thinking through the problem to come to a decision, and with utter conviction.

And that is what I wanted to get to. That is what I find downright scary, and evil. Just look at what Syl is saying. 'Force' is emphasised. She doesn't want to force him. Forcing him would be wrong, and very similar to what happened to the listeners, but at least it's honest, in a way. No, what is happening here is much worse. His will is being subverted. He has to become fanatical in his compliance with her values, a zealot. He has to be unwaveringly loyal to a set of standards, and it isn't even a rule set he can choose, but rather one that is already determined.


With the overall idea in mind, even innocent and supposedly cute scenes become horrifying. At one point she says she is a god, and Kaladin can bow to her. Then she says, stunningly arrogant, 'I'm not the one we've been waiting on'. And it ends with Kaladin trying to praise her and be nice, which she accepts as 'fact' and 'lets it slide'. They had very similar exchanges in WoK, but because the dynamic of their relationship was completely different, these worked. Here, it just seems awful. Worst of all is when she tells Kaladin, 'That's what they all were, silly.', [broken], it sounds straight up psychotic.


As I said at the start, I know this is wildly different from what most everybody sees, and I recognise my explanation leaves much to be desired, and isn't convincing at all, but this truly is what I've felt throughout the book, and how it reads to me. As an interesting bit, I have to say, in preparation of writing this post, I reread all the Kaladin bits from WoK, and even now the Syl presented there is my favourite character in the Stormlight Archive.


Some final, and rather random, thoughts. These are only slightly related to my point, but thinking on Syl in WoR made me think of these:
1. All the spren we see for any length are creepy.
Wyndle says 'the Ring said we should choose you. (...) 'She will be young and we can mold her'. How is that not creepy? Unlike the things with Syl, where I had to think long and hard, this was so bad, it made me put down the book in shock, and then read that paragraph three times to finally accept it.
Pattern. Funnily enough, he is the one who took me the longest time to see as suspect, because of his honesty about his values. What made it click finally was stating the situation, which I see as such:
'An impressionable, impulsive young woman, just becoming an adult meets a much older man, who introduces her to the world of lies and deceit, and encourages her to immerse herself in it.'
To me, that sounds like a bad thing.

2. Opposing the bad guys doesn't make you the good guys. Being good does.

3. Syl barely acts as a honourspren. The only thing she cares about is that Kaladin doesn't lie to her. Past that, her priority is only the literal, physical protection of everybody. She is more like a proterctionspren.

4. The only thing that changed between books that we know of is that Kaladin took the oath to protect. After that, at the end of WoK, they have no meaningful interaction. What if the oath has a profound effect on the spren, and not just that she can be present in this realm more strongly, but that it is somehow responsible for the change.

5. As far as the honour thing goes, I thought the logic was: Kaladin is honourable -> he wants to protect others, not Kaladin protects other -> he must be honourable. As such, honour should involve more things than just protecting lads. WoR seems to work more along the lines of the second option, which I find strange.


This should be obvious, but I love the series and have immense respect for Mr. Sanderson. None of this is meant to imply poor writing or continuity in any way. The vast majority of this is from an in world perspective, and the bits that aren't are general tropes, I guess I'd call them, I picked up, that just influence how I experience fantasy literature.

[Elena]

I really like your analysis, a lot. However, I don't understand where you get the 'malevolent' bit from. I agree with you that there are (if small) inconsistencies in Syl's characterization, and IMO with the whole Radiant business - just look at how many thread there are discussing the significance and/or interpretation of the Words and what should come from it (the Dalinar thread is my favorite one at the moment).

 

Whether this was deliberate from Brandon (fairly likely, he likes to play his hand close) or simple plot inconsistencies it's yet to be seen, and we probably will never know. This is by no means a critics - inconsistencies in small fantasy franchises are fairly common as the author figures out exactly how the magic system is supposed to work, improving as a writer as the years pass. Just look at Jordan, or even at the Harry Potter saga. Brandon seems to have planned out everything in freakishly precise details, so it's more likely that he's doing it on purpose - but even if he isn't, and simply still hasn't picked a definitive characterization for Syl, the story will be awesome all the same so I'm not overly concerned about it.

 

BTW, I think it's quite clear that your interpretation of the character is not the one Brandon is going with (unless he's been trolling us the whole time - never say never with him) but it's still fairly interesting, as alternate-character-interpretation are one of my favorite things about a saga - it's a good sign when something is so well written and layered that different people sees different shades of the story. (Like, for example - I'm a big ASOIAF fan and yet I consider Tyrion, who is the author's favorite character, as a budding psycho; while canon interpretation definitely doesn't agree. I still enjoy the story, even though I read the story through my very personal interpretation lens).

Again, this was really a good read, and I thank you for sharing. 

[Aleksiel]

This is an interesting take on what happened.

 

However, I have a different understanding. Feel free to disregard it as I don't have much to support it, but a feeling it's right.

 

I view Syl as an extension of Kal's consciousness at least to some regard. After his first talk with Moash about the assassination attempt on Elhokar, Kal started having problem with his weapon (same happened after Syl died). Note that Kal felt it was wrong to do nothing about Moash, but Syl didn't hear what was all about and Kaladin didn't tell her either. Yet he was not at peace with himself and their bond was disturbed.

 

Later on, Syl disappeared when Kaladin went to speak with the men that persuaded Moash to help them kill the king. Kaladin knew in his heart he shouldn't do it and so Syl was pushed away from him.

 

Kaladin never felt assassinating Elhokar was truly the right thing, so when he silenced the voice inside him (his consciousness), Syl was silenced as well (aka dead, back in Shardesmar).

 

She can not answer questions Kaladin can't answer. He asked her why she hadn't told him he could heal from a Sharblade wound (after the fight with Szeth) and she told him:

 

 

Because I didn’t know you could do it until you did it

 

Much the same, Syl doesn't know what right and honorable until Kaladin decides.

 

Thus why Kal hesitation to help Dalinar in WoK didn't create a problem - at first Kaladin though Dalinar didn't deserve to be saved. But in WoR Kaladin knew in his heart allowing Elhokar to be killed was wrong, he just spend a lot of time not being able to explain why it was wrong. Kal acted against his own consciousness and thus against his honor and bond with Syl.

 

So no, Syl wasn't forcing Kaladin to do anything, all he had to do was follow his heart. No, she couldn't give neither answers nor words as they should come from his heart. He is the one making or breaking promises, not Syl. 

 

edit: adding some additional explanations and changing some words I used wrong.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Shardbearer]

Spren do have some agency when it comes to the bond, but not when the KR is acting against his Ideals and Oaths. A spren can't simply chose keep the bond intact. If they could, we wouldn't have all these dead shardblades.

[Moogle]

I found this post very interesting. I don't see Syl as malevolent (she seems more... mischievous in her lines), but I do share some of your feelings on the spren requiring very 'fanatical' (you might say) obedience to their values. Also: Syl's inability to answer hypotheticals is insanely frustrating. I didn't realize that was a pet peeve of mine before reading WoR. Just answer the darn question, Syl!

 

And yes, Dalinar's bit with Kaladin and Syl's defense of Dalinar was... eh. Oh, and the jail time was even worse. Ugh.

 

Wyndle didn't strike me as all that creepy, but the "mold her" line does imply there's some serious manipulation of Lift going on. (Not that it's working. Unless it is?) So... I guess you could say you've shifted my view.

 

Pattern, of course, is ostensibly the creepiest, but I found his straightforwardness about his desires rather refreshing. His type's desire for Shallan to know herself at a deep level also seems the most harmless to me. Kaladin's protecting a bad king who might do terrible things to Alethkar, but all Shallan can say is that she accepts herself for who she is.

 

Thank you for taking the time to write this.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Moogle

[Youngy]

I am more inclined to agree with Aleksiel here... It seems that her values of right and wrong are derived from deep down what Kaladin believes to be right or wrong. 

Its interesting that Wyndle and Pattern seem to have more of an idea with what is happening than Syl... They know what their Radiant's are capable of, know of the politics in the Shadesmar etc.

[trendkill]

I do share some of your feelings on the spren requiring very 'fanatical' (you might say) obedience to their values.

Wouldn't you be fanatical about it too if your human not following them meant that you would lose your very sense of self?

Not saying that she shouldn't learn to ease up, but it's understandable at the very least.

[Seloun]

I don't know that I'd really agree that Syl stops being concerned about Kaladin's welfare in WoR. It's mainly that there aren't similar physical threats to Kaladin that she can do too much about. She's certainly concerned about how Kaladin's obsession about lighteyes is affecting his decision making (for good reason, I'd say).

 

I also don't interpret the scene where Syl tells Kaladin that she doesn't think he's really trying to do the right thing the same way. It seems pretty clear that Kaladin believe he's doing the wrong thing by agreeing to help assassinate Elhokar (Kaladin spent pretty much the entire book believing it to be a wrong thing, but was having difficulty articulating why). Her point isn't that he has to make up his mind; her point is that by his own moral standards, he's choosing to do the wrong thing.

 

That interpretation combined with Syl's inability to answer Kaladin's real moral dilemma leads me to think that her sense of morality is really a reflection of Kaladin's own. Much like how she can't think without the bond, she can't really make judgements without it either, and the judgements reflect Kaladin's conscience. It might be that some functions are 'hardwired' in (like the protecting thing) but overall her interpretation of morality appears to be consistent with not-broken Kaladin's interpretation (down the the parts where he doesn't have an answer).

 

I do agree the spren seem pretty creepy. Syl mentions herself that she doesn't really understand people still. There's clearly some level of moral dissonance going on, though how sinister it is is hard to really tell at this point.

 

FWIW, I have a working theory that the Recreance was caused by the revelation that spren are farming humans for the bond. We know that a broken soul is necessary for the Nahel bond, and that the spren require having a human (host?) bond partner to become sentient. It doesn't seem like a big step to notice that the spren have to ensure a supply of broken humans in order to maintain their 'race' in the physical realm, and in turn that they might have taken *active* steps to ensure such a supply. Just another paranoia-inducing hypothesis when it comes to creepy spren behavior.

[Moogle]

Wouldn't you be fanatical about it too if your human not following them meant that you would lose your very sense of self?

Not saying that she shouldn't learn to ease up, but it's understandable at the very least.

 

Oh, certainly. I don't think it's out of character for them, and it's definitely understandable. I just think that it's important to see that spren are not humans and have values that differ wildly. They're also fairly single-minded, I think.

 

Also: they could not bond, I guess? So I think I can still be mildly disapproving of the devotion required to maintain a bond.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Moogle

[trendkill]

Oh definitely. I just got a little sad by people talking close to bad about my beloved Syl!

[name_here]

I think the reason she didn't answer the Parshendi question is that she clearly hates the whole situation. She encouraged Kaladin to go to Dalinar's rescue, but left because the killing hurt her. The Parshendi were soldiers, so killing them in battle to save others was acceptable, but neither of the engaged sides were really in the wrong. So actually, I think if there had been a Parshendi Windrunner, his honorspren might tell him to leap into the fray. Though I would say that the more proper action for a Parshendi at the Tower once Saedas withdrew would be to call a ceasefire and negotiate.

 

For Elhokar/Moash, I felt that Kaladin had sworn contradictory oaths and Syl wanted him to get more of the Words to determine which should be kept. Also, she wasn't that helpful in resolving it because the fraying of the bond seriously hampered her intelligence.

 

I don't think Syl actively controls the bond. Remember, it goes both ways; when the bond weakens Syl loses intelligence. She goes back to being a talkative windspren when Kaladin has trouble drawing stormlight.

 

As for Amaram, Syl clearly disapproves of assassination. She encourages Kaladin to report Amaram's crime to the local authority, which is a right and proper way of handling it. Dalinar's response is entirely reasonable; while he doesn't believe Kaladin he does investigate the charges. He doesn't find anything because Amaram successfully covered it up, not because he didn't look.

 

 

Also: they could not bond, I guess? So I think I can still be mildly disapproving of the devotion required to maintain a bond.

 

If they don't bond, people don't Surgebind and don't get Sprenblades. Then they fight Stormform and Thunderclasts and lose, everyone dies, and the spren die too.

[Crysanja]

i guess bond Spren are more like persons then pets.

 

Sly starts out more like a pet then anything else,

she slowly progresses to become a person, which she propably was in her realm before.

 

 

becoming a person again, can change alot, even with decisions she made before - like binding to a human.

things get much more complicated in this stage or getting close to it.

 

sure in "pet" stage Sly can not have much of an agender of her own, but shes growing.

[The Count]

An interesting analysis although I, like other, think you are ascribing too much separation between Syl and Kaladin.

 

It seems to me that Syl is, for al intents and purposes, Kaladin's conscience and so articulates herself as such. I disagree almost entirely that her concern for Kaladin is gone, just that his conflicts are much more internal, human and complicated and she is only capable of limited understanding.

 

She basically tells Kaladin to 'Buck up' and 'get over it' because she does not understand the mental illness that Kaladin is experiencing.

 

I think it is a bit like apparent who can see their teenage child making bad decisions but feeling unable to adequately intervene without making the problem somehow worse.

[Edgedancer]

From my understanding Spren are a kind of mini Shard. So, to a certain extent, the whole honor/protection stich is instaled in Syl and she can´t uphold the bond if Kaladin doesn´t act the right way. How did Hoid put it: "The Shards here are very strict." (paraphrased)

Another, thing is that in WoK Kaladin could use protecting his men as an excuse for his actions. However, he has no excuse for wanting to beat up Adolin or killing Elhokar.

And while I´m already defending Syl. By the point Dalinar told Kaladin that he investigated Amaram, Syl´s mind was starting to regress. And without a mind you can´t properly discuss matters of morality. Before that Syl was just arguing against Kaladin´s general Lighteye predjeduce.

 

Still, I have to admid that you bring up some good points. Even though I blame most of the Sprens creppyness on them, well how do I put this, not being humans but instead advanced concepts.

[Musica]

I am more inclined to agree with Aleksiel here... It seems that her values of right and wrong are derived from deep down what Kaladin believes to be right or wrong. 

Its interesting that Wyndle and Pattern seem to have more of an idea with what is happening than Syl... They know what their Radiant's are capable of, know of the politics in the Shadesmar etc.

 

I believe Syl's knoweldge about everything is more affected because, as stated, she disobeyed the Stormfather in order to come to the physical Realm and bond with Kal. Wyndle was assisted by the rest of his kind (forgot what kind of spren he is...) specifically so he won't lose so much of himself and his memory while coming to the physical Realm. As for Pattern, while it wasn't quite said, it was implied that his bonding to Shallan was not forbidden and maybe even supported by the rest of the Cryptics, much like Wyndle.

 

If that's correct, I guess it begs the question of whether the Stormfather is the father of only honorspren, all spren associated to some degree with Honor, or all spren in general (which I find highly unlikely, as apparently not all spren where forbidden to come).

[Rybal]

First off - to say such a thing about Syl!!

 

Beyond that, the reason that the bond weakened was because of Kaladin's own internal conflict. Regardless of what he said at any point, he KNEW that killing Elkohar was not the right thing to do. His decision to tell Moash that he was on board with their plan didn't further damage the bond because the damage had already been done the moment that he decided that killing the king was acceptable.

 

The quote that you read was one where Kaladin was essentially trying to convince himself that he was trying to do, hence the emphasis on "trying". He knows he's wrong, but he WANTS to do it.

 

The stronger the bond gets, the closer the two of them get to one another. The difference is that Syl wouldn't have the protection from emotions that people do. We tend to push stuff down when we don't want to deal with it (see - Shallan's entire storyline in this book). Syl would feel the full force of those emotions (theory).

 

As their bond weakens (due to Kaladin's internal conflict), Syl's level of intelligence and sentience decrease to the point where she is just like her cousins, the windspren. That's the reason that they don't have the same types of conversations. Kaladin's depressions in the first book were a result of his inability to protect those he cared about. In this one, they were due to an internal conflict over what is right. Because he couldn't decide which one was right, his bond was also weakened.

 

Oh, as for Wyndle, of COURSE the spren would want to be able to mold those they bond. They don't want to be killed.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Wow, very different take on the character of Syl and spren in general. There may be something to this, though for me, not with Syl.

 

When Kaladin discovered that Moash was on King guard duty, he SHOULD have reported the plot to Dalinar right there. In not doing so, he very actively did something against honor. 

 

Remember that Spren are made up of different levels of both Honor and Cultivation, so not all of them are as "discerning as honorspren" as Nohadon says in tWoK. As the bonds increase the Spren seem to remember more and more. Pattern seems like his memory is VERY impacted at the beginnings of Shallan being re-aware of him. 

 

Wyndle seems to be much more Cultivation spren, so the "molding" of Lift seems in line with that. Pattern's "lies" arent necessarily lies as we understand them, he has a problem communicating remember? He sees anything that is not strictly "TRUE" as a lie. So any metaphor/simile, etc are "lies" to him, even though they are vehicles of relating truth to the human mind. 

[V'rish Makik]

 It seems that her values of right and wrong are derived from deep down what Kaladin believes to be right or wrong.

What Kaladin KNOWS to be right or wrong. Just like when Pattern and Shallan are talking about the nature of truth, you can derive from that scene that only the cognitive and physical realm are subject to variable truth, but the spiritual realm is not. I attribute moral values and the like to the spiritual realm ( journey before destination, the path is what matters, honor, all that stuff). The only definite truth I think is morality or "what's right and good".

 

Its interesting that Wyndle and Pattern seem to have more of an idea with what is happening than Syl... They know what their Radiant's are capable of, know of the politics in the Shadesmar etc.

Yeah that was one of the most annoying things for me. Syl has had access to thought and been with Kaladin for probably half a year and here comes Pattern who knows it all and even more so than Syl in some cases. He didn't even run away when he mentioned Odium. As far as we know, Syl can't even speak the name.

[tigvsben]

Yeah that was one of the most annoying things for me. Syl has had access to thought and been with Kaladin for probably half a year and here comes Pattern who knows it all and even more so than Syl in some cases. He didn't even run away when he mentioned Odium. As far as we know, Syl can't even speak the name.

 

To be fair, while Syl has been with Kaladin for a few months now Pattern has been with Shallan for more than 6 years! True he got rusty during the time she blocked her memories of him, but it doesn't necessarily put him back at the same starting place as the more recently arrived Syl.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Yeah that was one of the most annoying things for me. Syl has had access to thought and been with Kaladin for probably half a year and here comes Pattern who knows it all and even more so than Syl in some cases. He didn't even run away when he mentioned Odium. As far as we know, Syl can't even speak the name.

 All indications are that Pattern was in the physical realm for a while when Shallan was young. He regressed when she pushed him away but it's possible that his quick progression from when Shallan draws him on the ship is a consequence of him already having been bonded to her for a while years ago. His total time bonded is likely longer than Syl's.

Syl also came to the physical without help from other spren. Comments by Wyndle indicate that having help from others can make the transition easier and result in less memory loss.

[V'rish Makik]

 All indications are that Pattern was in the physical realm for a while when Shallan was young. He regressed when she pushed him away but it's possible that his quick progression from when Shallan draws him on the ship is a consequence of him already having been bonded to her for a while years ago. His total time bonded is likely longer than Syl's.

Syl also came to the physical without help from other spren. Comments by Wyndle indicate that having help from others can make the transition easier and result in less memory loss.

Aaah I had forgot that. Still it's annoying.

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 387973120 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 454748464 bytes) in Unknown on line 0

[Arkennys]

Thanks for the replies everyone.
I have to say, I'm grateful to all of you. I'm very shy in general, and afraid of the internet in particular. In terms of forums, blog comments, public chat rooms, reddit, facebook, etc. - so basically anything that's not a private conversation with somebody I know on a personal level - this is literally my third post. I have been lurking without an account here for a while, and I think this is one of the most polite, reasonable, and tolerant places I've found online. This has encouraged me to share my interpretation, and your reaction more than lived up to my expectations.

@_Elena

First off, saying Syl is malevolent was meant as an extreme worst case scenario, and I don't quite go that far in what I actually believe. To elaborate on it a bit, if she was doing it deliberately, with full understanding of how she manipulates Kaladin, and for personal gain, then that would certainly be a hell of a lot more than just unnerving.
Second, I don't consider any of it to be inconsistent; I can find a framework where it fits perfectly. If there are tiny details that perhaps don't work 100% well with WoK, then it is my duty to try to make my 'Syl is scarier than Odium' post account for them. That's half the fun!
Third, I'm as sure as I can be, without knowing Mr. Sanderson personally, that this is not what he was going for, but thinking about characters and motivations is my favourite part of literature. Incidentally, I'm with you on Tyrion.


@Shardbearer

Sure, a spren can't choose to keep the bond intact, but what about the other way? When the bond weakens, does it have to do with the spren's 'opinion'? Can they somehow limit the use the Knight gets out of it if they disagree with their actions? They would probably want to be careful with this, because doing so causes them to die (you know what I mean), but can they still do it? If yes, then what if the bit about honourspren being more discerning is alluding to more than just the choice process? Maybe they are more discerning even after becoming bonded, and are more willing to enforce what they see as right even at great personal cost.


@Moogle

At this point I find Pattern to be the least disturbing, because of how open he is about everything. The idea that he is doing the least harm on a somewhat wider scale is appealing to me.


@Seloun

I was considering something very similar with the Recreance. What are the chances that an entire generation of Knights is corrupted, or less worthy than their predecessors, and then suddenly decides to break their bonds? Again, I find your idea of a "broken people farm run by the spren" appealing.


@Crysanja

Bonded spren are more like people than pets, and while in a pet stage Syl can have less of an agenda. I agree with this completely. However, what bothers me, is that in terms of her actions and words, she appears to be more of a person in WoK, and yet barely has any visible, specific goals. Then in WoR, I feel her 'humanity', for lack of a better word, diminishes (even before the bond weakens), but she now has an ulterior motive.


@The Count

 

 

I disagree almost entirely that her concern for Kaladin is gone, just that his conflicts are much more internal, human and complicated and she is only capable of limited understanding.

 

She basically tells Kaladin to 'Buck up' and 'get over it' because she does not understand the mental illness that Kaladin is experiencing.

 

I think it is a bit like apparent who can see their teenage child making bad decisions but feeling unable to adequately intervene without making the problem somehow worse.

 

This is what I'd say is my canonical take. Silly alternate theories aside, this is exactly how I'd describe what officially happens in the book.
 

 

Several of you mentioned the difference between the knowledge Pattern and Syl have. I have very little to add here, except to say that I agree with the explanation that the way they came to our realm, and the length of time they have been here is the cause.


Finally, to the main argument: Syl is Kaladin's conscience, or that is the thing that affects her most.

First, the idea that her own ability to judge what is right or wrong comes entirely (or even mostly) from Kaladin bothers me. I must say, there is no in world reason why this couldn't be the case - indeed, I can easily see that there is an implication to this effect. I dislike it purely as a reader. If this is true, that severely limits Syl as a character, and I simply think it's boring. Not a very objective or formally logical argument, but even so.

Second, that Kaladin's conscience is key to the bond. As a concept, I like this very much. This would allow individual Knights, even of the same order, to act differently - within reason - in specific situations, and retain their bond. However, either this is not what is in the book, or I have a wildly different opinion on what a conscience means.
The way I see it, Kaladin's internal conflict comes precisely from his conscience. All the time he can't decide what to do, all the time he spends effectively paralysed, he is dealing with his heart. You are right that not telling Dalinar about the conspiracy was wrong, and he did a good number of things I don't actually agree with, but the vast majority of what he 'did'... he actually did by doing nothing. He doesn't stop or hinder Moash, but he doesn't help him either. Until the very end, in terms of the plot to kill the king, he might as well not exist for all the impact his presence has. I find it difficult to explain better what I mean. I feel like I'm only repeating myself here: what happens in WoR is Kaladin having, and dealing with, his conscience, his heart.
If he decided without hesitation to kill the king because it is better for the country, did it, and slept well that night, he would be either a psychopath if he doesn't truly believe that this is for the greater good, or a zealot who believes the end justify the means.
If he decided, with hesitation, to kill king for the same reason, but felt bad about it, he would be acting against his conscience, and I could very much see that breaking the bond.
It is vital to understand that he doesn't do anything, and more importantly, he doesn't truly make a decision. He says he does, he even thinks he does, but he never follows it up by any action. His constant worry over it, the obvious attempts to rationalise it away, show that he is struggling with an actual decision. This is apparently enough to break to bond. I find this ridiculously scary. If this is not allowed, if he has to make decisions instantaneously, with no room for temporary uncertainty - that means that in the name of making him follow his heart, his heart is destroyed and he becomes a fanatical nutjob or a robot - depending on whether raw, unchecked-by-morality emotions or logic drives him in the end.

[Seloun]

I'm not really sure that it's completely accurate to say that Kaladin doesn't truly make a decision. It appears that he does (but ends up regretting it basically the day after).

 

In particular, the 'breaking' appears to occur in this scene:

 

 

He helped Moash fit one of the pauldrons to his shoulder. “I had a lot of time to think, in there,” Kaladin said.

 

“I can imagine.”

 

“The time led me to a few decisions,” Kaladin said as the section of Plate locked into place. “One is that your friends are right.”

 

Moash turned to him sharply. “So . . .”

 

“So tell them I agree with their plan,” Kaladin said. “I’ll do what they want me to in order to help them . . . accomplish their task.”

 

The room grew strangely still.

 

Moash took him by the arm. “I told them you’d see.” He gestured to the Plate he wore. “This will help too, with what we must do. And once we’ve finished, I think a certain man you challenged might need the same treatment.”

 

“I only agree,” Kaladin said, “because it’s for the best. For you, Moash, this is about revenge— and don’t try to deny it. I really think it is what Alethkar needs. Maybe what the world needs.”

 

'The room grew strangely still' seems likely the point where he's actually breaking his oaths (Note that 'Bridges' occurs almost immediately after this scene). Syl doesn't seem to be completely gone yet, but maybe there's some kind of ontological intertia or something.

 

It's not a flashy or arguably particular significant action, but the action that Kaladin takes to break his oath is to tell Moash that he will do what the conspirators want him to do. Not just that, he gives Moash approval on the plan. Doing that is different than just equivocating with himself or even just making a decision internally, since it affects what Moash does (without this approval, it's unclear how the assassination attempt would have went down, or if it would have happened at the same time, or even at all with Moash's involvement).

 

Now there are some problems with this interpretation. The main one is that Syl appears to be losing her sentience even before this point (she acts somewhat strangely while Kaladin is in the cell) which seems to imply that there's at least some kind of continuum of oath-breaking (or whatever that causes the bond to break). So it's not completely clear that it does actually take an action to break the bond, or if just enough time thinking bad thoughts is sufficient. However at least in this case, I think there is a specific point where the bond actually breaks, or at least degrades in a discrete manner.

[Aleksiel]

Second, that Kaladin's conscience is key to the bond. As a concept, I like this very much. This would allow individual Knights, even of the same order, to act differently - within reason - in specific situations, and retain their bond. However, either this is not what is in the book, or I have a wildly different opinion on what a conscience means.

The way I see it, Kaladin's internal conflict comes precisely from his conscience. 

 

Mm, I think I might see where you are going with this, but I still don't find any contradictions here.

 

Kal had a problem with his conscience, thus a problem with his bond appeared. Later on Kal refused to listen to his conscience and silenced it, which resulted in Syl's death/return to Shadesmar. That, and he broke his promise/second Ideal to protect by agreeing Elhokar to be assassinated. He conscientiously betrayed his oath, though Syl was still around for a while.

 

That being said I still do not understand how exactly Kaladin killed her when he was trying to protect Dalinar and instead fell into the chasms, so there's more to this. I've read speculations it was due to him inhaling stormlight, but I'm not convinced. It was a moment he was acting according to his ideals, so it seems reasonable that he'd be able to surgebind, but that was not the case.

 

Syl was kind of dying ever since Kaladin's first conversation with Moash about the king and in all honesty he violated his oaths by doing nothing more than getting a promise out of Moash to not try anything again. Still, this doesn't explain why in the moment on the bridge (the assassination attempt on Dalinar) when Kal was upholding his oaths the bond didn't fix itself and instead was the end of Syl. There are many unclear things to the nature of the bond for now.

[hoser]

These are excellent questions, IMO.

I'm not really sure that it's completely accurate to say that Kaladin doesn't truly make a decision. It appears that he does (but ends up regretting it basically the day after).
...
The main one is that Syl appears to be losing her sentience even before this point (she acts somewhat strangely while Kaladin is in the cell) which seems to imply that there's at least some kind of continuum of oath-breaking (or whatever that causes the bond to break). So it's not completely clear that it does actually take an action to break the bond, or if just enough time thinking bad thoughts is sufficient. However at least in this case, I think there is a specific point where the bond actually breaks, or at least degrades in a discrete manner.

The possibility I see is that he is not living his oaths even before he commits to working with Moash and Graves:

• Focusing on killing Amaram is not about life before death and journey before destination. Murdering Amaram would be achieving a result by bad means. Conspiring to allow the king to be killed is also bad means. So Kaladin is already failing the first oath and it weakens the bond.
• Murdering Amaram for revenge and helping kill the king are also not protecting those who need it, so he is not living the second oath.

At this point Syl seems cognitively regressed and he can only draw stormlight when Syl is nearby. She is also nearby less as the following quote from chapter 68 shows.

He breathed in stormlight to reassure himself. Only it didn't come. He stood, dumbfounded, while soldiers marched across one of Dalinar's enormous mechanical bridges. He tried again. Nothing.
... Syl zipped down in the form of a ribbon of light. She swirled around him, still giggling.
The Stormlight returned to him.

Syl doesn't even seem to be consciously doing anything. The bond is just weaker and only works when she is very close.

Mm, I think I might see where you are going with this, but I still don't find any contradictions here.
...
Syl was kind of dying ever since Kaladin's first conversation with Moash about the king and in all honesty he violated his oaths by doing nothing more than getting a promise out of Moash to not try anything again. Still, this doesn't explain why in the moment on the bridge (the assassination attempt on Dalinar) when Kal was upholding his oaths the bond didn't fix itself and instead was the end of Syl. There are many unclear things to the nature of the bond for now.

I think what must kill the spren is deliberately acting to provide the bond's benefits to a knight that is not keeping the oaths. So Kaladin's actions at the moment are okay by the oaths, but Syl must not be near. She must sense his need and consciously extend benefits to him, even though she is not close.

Acting to benefit the renegade Knight must be what kills the spren.

There are problems with this theory: we don't know that Syl wasn't close and we have very little data to support it.

The possible implications are very interesting. If Syl could just disconnect rather than die unless she actively supported Kaladin, then what does that say about the Recreance? Those spren could die without being in sword form, as happens with Syl. Does sword form count as deliberately benefitting a forsworn knight? The spren must have known what was coming. The Radiants acted in a coordinated fashion and must have discussed it beforehand in front of their spren.

• Did the spren involved in the Recreance choose to die?
• If they had not been in sword form, could they have just gone stupid, but not in screaming sword form?

Edited March 26, 2014 by hoser