[OB] Surgebinder/Lightweaver broken spirits and Tien

[KalaDANG he/him]

I'm rereading WoK, and I have been thinking about how most of those that bond spren have serious problems mentally and emotionally. I've seen WoB's where people theorize that to get a Nahel Bond, your spiritweb has to be cracked or broken a little bit to allow room for the bond. Brandon has said that this would be the on-world theory, but that it isn't necessarily always the case. He references Shallan at this point, because she has been bonded to pattern for so long, since she was just a little girl and her biological mother was still alive, and she hadn't experienced all the horrible stuff that would be coming. So, I'm just wondering, what do you guys think the overarching rule would be for bonding a spren? Does the relative strength of your spiritweb really play a part? Or do you think it's kind of just open to anyone based on whether or not they can attract a spren? Kaladin's honor in his actions in his squad attracted Syl. Shallan attracted Pattern by all the lying to herself. Szeth (assuming he's bonded by book four) will attract a highspren because of how he demonstrated his honor when he willingly adhered to the commands of those who held his oathstone, even if he hated himself for doing so, showing that he would make a good Skybreaker. That kind of personality thing? Like maybe it's just compatibility? A side question as well, Brandon has said that Tien was about to bond a Cryptic and become a lightweaver, so do you guys think that Tien had some emotional and mental problems that he was good at hiding? Or do you think he's another exception like Shallan?

[Calderis he/him]

OK. This'll be a rant. I apologize. 

Being "broken" is a universal Cosmere mechanic. It's the same thing as "snapping" in Mistborn. It is necessary in most cases, but the trouble here is one of degrees. Everyone seems to think that to be "broken" you have to have the horrible levels of trauma we see in Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar. 

If that were the case, I doubt that the Radiants would ever have numbered in the thousands, which we know is true. This has mostly come up in regards to Adolin's potential as a Radiant, and him not being "broken enough" which I think is crem.

Snapping, and by extension brokenness is about emotional extremes. It can happen through extreme joy, that's just rare. It doesn't require trauma. It doesn't have to manifest as mental illness. 

I think that eventually, other than in rare cases where someone lives an extremely sheltered life, everyone will break. If you have been through anything that causes an emotional reaction that shakes you to your core, and alters your thinking, you're broken. You've snapped. 

That said, no I don't think that this is the only way. I think for an adult that to bond a spren, yes this has to occur... But a child? The spiritweb is going to grow and change just as the mind and body do. Spiritual, Cognitive, and Physical all grow together. If a Spren begins to bond with a child, and the spiritweb is still growing, I think it will grow to incorporate the bond without the need for cracks, in much the same way as a tree can have a branch grafted on. The two living parts growing together.

[KalaDANG he/him]

Haha no ranting is good. I learn more that way. I hadn’t really thought about different degrees of breaking before. That’s really interesting. And with kids, you’re basically saying that they’re spirit webs are incomplete as well, just in a different way. Yeah? I think it’s really interesting to see the broken people advance in oaths, because it almost seems like a healing process. Except instead of a normal spirit web, they’ve grafted on a bit of a Shard. It’s cool, Kaladin as he goes on has to accept his failures and accept that he can’t save everyone, Shallan has had to admit truths to herself that she might have never admitted otherwise, which seems to be helping her overcome her mental struggles, and Dalinar had to accept what he did in his past. It’s really cool. Do you think that maybe that to attract a spren, all you have to do is have breaks in your spirit web that they can fill or heal? That would work with kids, since they’re lacking all over their spirit web, it might even be easier to attract a spren.

[Weltall]

Having cracks in your spiritweb isn't just a Rosharan thing, it's a Cosmere-wide phenomenon. You need a way to get the Investiture into your soul and trauma or other great stress is the easiest way to create the cracks which the magic can then fill. We see it directly with allomancy and we don't know enough about how Selish and Taldaini Initiation works to say how it applies there, while it's baked into Nalthian Investiture (which is less Spiritual) so you don't need it for BioChroma, though it's probably a factor in the process of becoming a Returned.

Brandon's also mentioned that it's just good storytelling to balance out power with flaws and because characters that are hurting are more interesting to write about, for the Doylist perspective on these things.

3 hours ago, KalaDANG said:

He references Shallan at this point, because she has been bonded to pattern for so long, since she was just a little girl and her biological mother was still alive, and she hadn't experienced all the horrible stuff that would be coming.

Bear in mind that Shallan is an unreliable narrator and we know for a fact that her mother was willing to kill her when she started visibly manifesting the signs of being a Surgebinder. The latter suggests a less than perfectly loving relationship and combined with the former, Shallan's childhood may not have been quite so rosy as she's made it out to be.

Quote

Szeth (assuming he's bonded by book four)

He already has bonded a highspren, though it's easy to miss. When he formally swears his Third Ideal he mentions the fact.

Quote

“I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. This is my oath.” At the Words, snow crystallized around him in the air, then fluttered down. He felt a surge of something. Approval? From the hidden spren who only rarely showed itself to him, even still.

Given that Szeth is carrying around an Investiture-nomming Nightblood, I'm not entirely surprised that his spren prefers to keep a low profile.

Quote

A side question as well, Brandon has said that Tien was about to bond a Cryptic and become a lightweaver, so do you guys think that Tien had some emotional and mental problems that he was good at hiding? Or do you think he's another exception like Shallan?

Like I said, I don't think Shallan is an exception. In Tien's case, he could very easily have been working through emotional issues that we never really saw because he was always so cheerful around Kaladin. We know he didn't become another apprentice to his father because he couldn't stomach everything that it entailed and he was always seen as kind of useless for doing 'real' work when he did become an apprentice carpenter, which had to have bothered him especially since he could make really fine carvings. But he was seen that way and it could easily have affected him and Tien just refused to let it show. In fact, that could have been part of the lies he told himself that attracted a Cryptic in the first place.

EDIT: But yeah, as Calderis says I think there's a range of 'cracked-ness' and not everybody needs to go through the sorts of experiences that Kelsier or Kaladin did, though it's also going to depend on the world and how their individual magic systems function.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Weltall

[Journey Before Pancakes]

56 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Given that Szeth is carrying around an Investiture-nomming Nightblood, I'm not entirely surprised that his spren prefers to keep a low profile.

I wonder if the weird misalignment of his cognitive and physical selves is also part of it.

Would a spren see something weird too, or do they get so trapped in the physical that they wouldn't see that like Lift can?

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Seems like any Surgebinder can see it, so probably their spren can.

But lhe spren chose to bond him, so probably they are not hiding because of that.

They are probably hiding from Nightblood, sensibly.

[Calderis he/him]

Or Highspren are just very hands off in general. We saw two of them in one instance where they were judging the squires, and that is the only. Reason we know what they look like. 

I think it's entirely possible that Highspren leave the organization and guidance of the Skybreakers to the humans generally, and speak very rarely. 

[Wandering Investor]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I think it's entirely possible that Highspren leave the organization and guidance of the Skybreakers to the humans generally, and speak very rarely. 

In my head Windrunners and Skybreakers are opposites, so I assume this means the Honorspren decide the Windrunner's hierarchy. I'm imagining grand debates, or knowing Syl, gladiatorial combat (cue Syl jousting with another highspren, ah, the little things).

[LordOfStorms]

On July 14, 2018 at 11:00 AM, KalaDANG said:

I'm rereading WoK, and I have been thinking about how most of those that bond spren have serious problems mentally and emotionally. I've seen WoB's where people theorize that to get a Nahel Bond, your spiritweb has to be cracked or broken a little bit to allow room for the bond. Brandon has said that this would be the on-world theory, but that it isn't necessarily always the case. He references Shallan at this point, because she has been bonded to pattern for so long, since she was just a little girl and her biological mother was still alive, and she hadn't experienced all the horrible stuff that would be coming. So, I'm just wondering, what do you guys think the overarching rule would be for bonding a spren? Does the relative strength of your spiritweb really play a part? Or do you think it's kind of just open to anyone based on whether or not they can attract a spren? Kaladin's honor in his actions in his squad attracted Syl. Shallan attracted Pattern by all the lying to herself. Szeth (assuming he's bonded by book four) will attract a highspren because of how he demonstrated his honor when he willingly adhered to the commands of those who held his oathstone, even if he hated himself for doing so, showing that he would make a good Skybreaker. That kind of personality thing? Like maybe it's just compatibility? A side question as well, Brandon has said that Tien was about to bond a Cryptic and become a lightweaver, so do you guys think that Tien had some emotional and mental problems that he was good at hiding? Or do you think he's another exception like Shallan?

Considering the spirit web is outside of time, is it possible that someone can have cracks that will appear later, that allow for power now? Using shallan as an example; she bonded when likely too young to be broken, but will experience significant trauma later in her life. 

[Calderis he/him]

11 minutes ago, LordOfStorms said:

Considering the spirit web is outside of time, is it possible that someone can have cracks that will appear later, that allow for power now? Using shallan as an example; she bonded when likely too young to be broken, but will experience significant trauma later in her life. 

I don't believe so. Time functions differently in the Spiritual Realm yes, but it does still exist. The only way it could be truly nonexistent is if time were fixed, and we know it isn't. 

The way that I see, the future is in constant flux, with many potentials represented. Once the choices are made in the present those thing solidify in the Spiritual Realm and become true rather than just potential. As such I don't think that potential cracks can function as if they are actually present. 

Trying to grasp non-linear time that's still bound to time dependent realms is a headache.