[OB] Who has the most Named character kills

[Calderis]

The "real Shallan" is all of them. She's a scared and confused child in over her head. She has no idea who she should be, or who she wants to be. 

Yes she is capable of killing, and it's always been in defense. Even her father, who is the most cold blooded seeming, was to stop the violence. 

She is not a ruthless cold blooded killer. She's a frightened child trapped by her trauma. Comparing her to a violent sociopath who pretends to be helpless is not a valid point.

Edit: this isn't to say she's not dangerous. But it's the danger of a cornered animal, not a predator. 

Edited July 7, 2018 by Calderis

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

30 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The "real Shallan" is all of them. She's a scared and confused child in over her head. She has no idea who she should be, or who she wants to be. 

Yes she is capable of killing, and it's always been in defense. Even her father, who is the most cold blooded seeming, was to stop the violence. 

She is not a ruthless cold blooded killer. She's a frightened child trapped by her trauma. Comparing her to a violent sociopath who pretends to be helpless is not a valid point.

Edit: this isn't to say she's not dangerous. But it's the danger of a cornered animal, not a predator. 

No sir , she was a scared child when she killed her mother. That woman who killed Tyn was no child. Similar to how Adolin plays a dandy before a duel, then will bring the noise in a real fight ; Shallan plays the helpless coutersan Davar. But when Tyn talk to her like a weakling her true self came out and showed her , there is nothing weak about me. Subsequently , Gaz broke into the room, her thoughts shifted to making sure Tyn men were dead. Shallan may supressed her childhood memories because she doesn’t want to face the fact she killed her mom and let her father bear the weight of her moms death so everyone would like her! That’s not a broken child that Sanderson is conveying to us. That a cold blooded murderess who plays helpless people underestimate her. Like she told Tyn, I have learned that lesson already!

[Calderis]

I'll continue to disagree. Plenty of people put on a hard face to hide their fear.

Shallans first truth was "I'm terrified." That's not situational. That's who she is. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'll continue to disagree. Plenty of people put on a hard face to hide their fear.

Shallans first truth was "I'm terrified." That's not situational. That's who she is. 

That wasn’t fear imo. She could of summoned her shardblade and cut Tyn sword in half and scared her away. I doubt anyone would want to fight a shardbearer with a normal sword. If she had then Tyn would know her secret so she killed her. Furthermore, on the boat she could of summoned her shardblade. She chose to burn it down killing everyon. With stormlight she knew she could most likely survive . I understand you disagreement . Keep watching and see I’m not right about her. The way she growled at Tyn, and snapped at Gaz to stay on task; She didn’t want to hear anything but Tyn men were dead, she was cold , emotionless. I saw no fear

[Bigmikey357]

I agree somewhat with Caderis; Shallan is not a sociopath. What she is is capable, almost despite herself. In times of stress she locks down all emotion until the crisis passes, then becomes the flighy teenager we've all come to know and at times be annoyed by. She's certainly dangerous, but her strength seems always to be either defensive or reactive. She's a person who won't start a fight but will finish one as the only one standing.

[Toaster Retribution]

I don’t think that Shallan let her father take the blame so that everyone would like her. She had suppressed (right word?) her memories of it. It was not cold, but a normal reaction from children who see terrible stuff.

[Calderis]

Everything about Shallan's character is fear driven. Her suppressed memories. Her confusion as to who she is because of what she's down. Tyn was going to kill her,so she locked down those emotions like she suppresses everything else and did what needed to be done. 

That's the way trauma coping mechanisms work. The emotion doesn't go away, you just find a way to deal with it or not feel it. 

Shallan is, and always will be, the scared little girl attacked by her mother until she actually faces it all and accept who she is and everything that's happened. 

A cold blooded murder doesn't feel the regret she did over failure at helping feed children. She's far to empathetic and naive to be what you think she is. 

[Wander89]

I'm going to have to say Dalinar. When using the Thrill as the Blackthorn he was able to destroy whole towns, sometimes even more,

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Everything about Shallan's character is fear driven. Her suppressed memories. Her confusion as to who she is because of what she's down. Tyn was going to kill her,so she locked down those emotions like she suppresses everything else and did what needed to be done. 

That's the way trauma coping mechanisms work. The emotion doesn't go away, you just find a way to deal with it or not feel it. 

Shallan is, and always will be, the scared little girl attacked by her mother until she actually faces it all and accept who she is and everything that's happened. 

A cold blooded murder doesn't feel the regret she did over failure at helping feed children. She's far to empathetic and naive to be what you think she is. 

Thing is Calderis I do see the merits of your arguments . But I still disagree . Not all killers are sociopaths . I think she could of found an alternative to killing Tyn if she was the scared little girl. Cutting her arms or legs with a shardblade and crippling her for life. That would stop any chance of Tyn killing Shallan , but it would expose Shallan so she opted to kill her. Shallan does show remorse but please tell me how much remorse for the crew of the boat she sank . I estimate 5 or 6 assasinans and about 10 crew members . Did she show remorse for anyone but Jasnah ? Kaladin would of tried to save himself and the crew . If people want to Believe her violence is a fear reaction and her scared little girl is true Shallan I won’t argue with you. I only ask you consider the points I brought up. And watch her body count 

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I don’t think that Shallan let her father take the blame so that everyone would like her. She had suppressed (right word?) her memories of it. It was not cold, but a normal reaction from children who see terrible stuff.

Shallan’s brothers hated their father. Heleran left . The younger ones all blamed Lin Davar for their mothers death . Shallan even tries to tell them the truth , and allows them to continue thinking her father was guilty . All her brothers looked up to Shallan  and part of that is why imo Shallan could never admit to herself or them she killed her mother. Her Father was cruel and a prick. Has anyone considered how much he loved Shallan . He let everyone , his wife, his ardents all despised him . He bore that shame just so. Everyone would not think I’ll of Shallan.  I think her mother and skybreaker deserved to die , but it’s likely if the truth were known , no mobile families would allow their son to marry a women who murderred her mum?

[Toaster Retribution]

I disagree. In regards to Tyn, if you are scared, you don’t stop to think about your options. You just defend yourself in the quickest way possible, which Shallan did. 

In regards to her family: she doesn’t want to say that she killed her mother because she doesn’t want to admit it to herself. It was deeply traumatic: she tries to pretend that it never happened, and she can’t do that if she talks about it.

 

Edited July 7, 2018 by Toaster Retribution

[Bigmikey357]

Lin keeps the secret because he loved his daughter. But that love is tinged with fear. He was in the room when Shallan burned his wife's eyes out. He knows the price of threatening her in any way. He destroys himself, his reputation and his children's lives for fear of that dreadful blade.

[Calderis]

Sociopaths are not just born, they're made. 

Killing without remorse, a "cold blooded killer," is a sociopath by necessity. Shallan is not that.

She tries, and fails, to shut down her emotions. They catch up to her. She's the mess she is precisely because she can't shut things out indefinitely. 

[vikorr]

Quote

Yeah that kind of makes her more deadly not less deadly , thanks for making my argument . If you watch the movie primal fear , Roy does not have DiD either. The scared kid is a mask . Roy is his real personality . He wears the mask to get out. Of trouble . After shallan kills Tyn , she becomes ice cold , growling and screaming at Tyn , and at Gaz. That is the real shallan : she acts helpless and scared 90 percent of the time .

I disagree that the killer is the 'real shallan', nor that she acts helpless and scared 90 percent of the time.

All conflict situations trigger fight, flight, or freeze. For the sake of a picture (not calling anyone an animal here), there are two types of dogs that will bite you if you walk into their territory: aggressive dogs, and frightened dogs (as opposed to timid dogs). Many frightened dogs will avoid conflict unless cornered, That is, there are two distinct sides to their personality - being frightened (majority of time), but fighting when cornered...then being frightened again 

Shallan was willing to kill to save her life, but otherwise did not like violence. She became 'helpless' because part of that was already in her personality, and she hid the other side. Hiding wasn't an act, and nor were the consequences of it. Hiding is the reason she struggled so much with her truths that pattern required.It's how she dealt with her mothers death, with how and why her father went downhill, and even with how she killed him - she hides it away.Hiding is a way for 'real shallan' to deal with things she does not want to deal with.

In relation to her violent defense of her life - she may be quite afraid of such, and she may hate people who trigger it (hence the yelling and screaming), because at heart she doesn't want to be violent. That does make the violent side 'the real Shallan', it makes violence a genuine part of who she is in life threatening situations...so a side of her that may only come out under life threatening stress.

In terms of 'real Shallan' there are also her alter egos, where she feels she becomes them, and to her they seem to have their own thoughts, their own feelings, their own attraction to different men etc. Put another way, each of them thinks differently to 'Shallan', and would react differently than 'Shallan' to the same situation. And we have her being afraid she'll get lost in them...so distinct personalities.

---------------

Primal Fear by the way, was a truly great movie. Edward Norton was such a convincing actor - I think it's the best piece of acting he's done (as a movie outcome). I can see the attraction to comparing Shallan to Roy. 

Edited July 7, 2018 by vikorr

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

18 minutes ago, vikorr said:

In relation to her violent defense of her life - she may be quite afraid of such, and she may hate people who trigger it (hence the yelling and screaming), because at heart she doesn't want to be violent. That does make the violent side 'the real Shallan', it makes violence a genuine part of who she is in life threatening situations...so a side of her that may only come out under life threatening stress.

Thank you for considering one of the points I brought up. I can get behind this. My argument was that a scared little girl who kills someone , would most likely Breath a sigh of relief after it was done. She wouldn’t growl in anger at the person. So I asked myself , what was Sanderson trying to convey with that outburst from Shallan. My theory is viable. Your explanation of her being angry at someone who forced her to kill is equally viable.

perhaps you would like to also share your take on my other two points? Shallan emotionless and laser focus on the remaining threats ( Tyn’s henchmen) Gaz was in shock like a normal person. Shallan was basically focused as she scream Gaz “what about Tyn’s men” she only relaxed after they were reported dead. Does that seem the actions of a scared person? 

  Finally , what’s your take on the attack on Ship. After assuming Jasnah was dead. Shallow burned the whole ship in order to kill crew and assasins! Does this seem the reasoning of a scared person? Do you feel she showed any remorse towards the crew ? Could she have perhaps Used her shardblade as scary and wonderous as they are to kill the assasins and/or intimidate them? What do you think Sanderson was trying to convey about Shallan with that catastrophic use of her powers?

[vikorr]

Yep, Shallan is growing, and learning how to handle danger. She is no longer 90% frightened / timid. And there is definitely a part of her capable of great focus. That aside, unfortunately, she is creating 'personas' to help overcome what she sees as her limitations. Pattern is actually worried about this behaviour. 

I don't think we're all that far apart on viewpoints. Mostly, I don't think 'Shallan' is an act. And defining her as 90% scared is creating some confusion, because I see her as evolving throughout the story arc in relation to this. Maybe 90% at the start, but I would have put in closer to 40-50% now (possibly less).

Edited July 8, 2018 by vikorr

[Bigmikey357]

I think the issue with gauging Shallan has to do with how much she keeps hidden, both from outsiders and herself. She's never truly been a whole person, not since she decided to forget that she killed her mother and thus regained her ability to speak. Maybe she is 90% scared, lessening as the series progresses as suggested by Vikorr. My personal take on it is she is a defense fighter. She hides behind a shy manner and a razor wit, but the more savage side of her personality is held down, pressurized. In times of threat to herself or those she cares about, a switch is flipped and she seeks to end threats. The problem with releasing pent up emotion is that when one finally lets go the reaction is often way out of proportion. For example, she almost goes psycho when she returned from the chasms and Adolin pledged to protect her. Maybe she could have disabled Tyn but she was in danger and thus ended a threat with finality. The Shallan we first meet is an overlay; it covers the bleeding soul that is capable of lazer focus and utter ruthlessness. Basically the personality she later shoves into Veil.

[Calderis]

The ship was exactly what the narrative said it was. The way she convinced the ship itself to change. 

The crew were tied up and being executed. They were going to die if nothing was done. Period. In the confusion of the ship sinking there was at least a chance that some of them could escape. And if her drawing of Yalb is any indication, produced at the same time as her drawing of Shallash, it worked. 

Her intention was not to kill the crew, and it was never presented as such. 

[galendo]

Most of Shallan's murders -- all but one, really -- are understandable.  Tyn, for instance, was quite spur-of-the-moment.  Shallan was under pressure and I'm not too sure she can be blamed for overreacting.  It was pretty clear that Tyn had both the means and the intent to kill her.

The ship thing was maybe a bit reckless -- okay, really reckless and again probably not the best possible choice -- but having the benefit of seeing her point of view I think we can agree that she intended to help the sailors.  So no real blame there, especially considering that she had very little time to think.  Same thing as Tyn, really.  She was put under pressure and had to react fast.

We don't really know what happened with her mother, so it's hard to pass judgement on that one.

But there is one murder that's hard to explain away, one murder that really supports @SzethIsBadAsHell's points, and that's the murder of her father.

There's no real way to sugar-coat this one, no way to write it off as anything other than cold-blooded patricide.  The man was no immediate threat.  They could have knocked him out, could have tied him up, could have kidnapped him or turned him over to the Highlord's justice or just run off to the ends of the earth.  Instead she chose to strangle him.

Does that make her a psychopath?  I don't know, I'm not a psychologist.  But it's pretty clear that Shallan is, at the very least, a cold-blooded murderess.

[Calderis]

When an abuser has dominated your entire life through violence and fear and you finally stand up to that... There's no logical thinking. There's no "hmm, he's waking up, we should contact the appropriate authorities."

The source of their fear and pain, who had just killed their step-mother and maimed Balat, was coming to. He was angry enough to kill before, when he found that they were leaving. What do you think attempting to kill him would amount to in their minds?

Yes, it was murder. Yes it was cold. And it was also done with tears in her eyes and a song to ease him,in memory of the man he had been, and to stop the fear of a tyrant and abuser. 

Her state of cold calm, her use of poison, the strangling... Yes, I get it. Her narrative does not imply it was cold though. It was regretful. It was remorseful. It was something inevitable and painful. 

That's not the character being described as a cold-blooded killer. The dangerous murderer. That's a terrified, abused, and brave girl protecting her family from the monster that controlled every aspect of their lives. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Calderis

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

42 minutes ago, Calderis said:

When an abuser has dominated your entire life through violence and fear and you finally stand up to that... There's no logical thinking. There's no "hmm, he's waking up, we should contact the appropriate authorities."

The source of their fear and pain, who had just killed their steo-mother and maimed Balat, was coming to. He was angry enough to kill before when he found that they were leaving. What do you think attempting to kill him would amount to in their minds. 

Yes, it was murder. Yes it was cold. And it was also done with tears in her eyes and a song to ease him in memory of the man he had been, and to stop the fear of a tyrant and abuser. 

Her state of cold calm, her use of poison, the strangling... Yes, I get it. Her narrative does not imply it was cold though. It was regretful. It was remorseful. It was something inevitable and painful. 

That's not the character being described as a cold-blooded killer. The dangerous murderer. That's a terrified, abused, and brave girl protecting her family from the monster that controlled every aspect of their lives. 

Well said. I don't think Shallan fits the bill of a sociopath whatsoever. If anything, she is overly empathetic to the point where she has to compartmentalise her emotions in order to function normally. 

She feels intense guilt over her failure in feeding the poor in Kholinar, she creates the Radiant persona to wield a shardblade so she can avoid the emotional trauma that is a product of her killing her horrible mother in self defence. You can't look at Shallan's actions and say that she feels no remorse, no guilt for her actions. She seems to suffer from quite a bit of self-hatred which unfortunately causes her to lash out at Pattern and Kaladin when their very existence serves as a reminder that she cannot ever completely erase her traumatic past.

Out of all of the characters that Brandon has written I feel like Shallan gets the most unfair criticism. The most valid criticism of her character is her prejudice towards Darkeyes which is more a reflection of her sheltered upbringing and the failures of Vorinism than it is a blemish on her character. Shallan used to be one of my least favourite characters in the Cosmere until I started to gain a deeper understanding of her psychological state and her presence as a highly unreliable narrator.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

hen an abuser has dominated your entire life through violence and fear and you finally stand up to that... There's no logical thinking. There's no "hmm, he's waking up, we should contact the appropriate authorities."

That’s a beautiful take on it , well said . It’s so well said I actually hate pointing out this one fact . Shallan father never once hit her. I don’t know if it was Love of her, or fear of pattern but she was never touched . He beat her brothers in her stead . So she is the only person who was. Never scared of her father . And the only one who wanted to stick by him, when all others wanted to abandon him. So his Death is also what started me thinking  something is not right with her!

 

7 hours ago, galendo said:

ut there is one murder that's hard to explain away, one murder that really supports @SzethIsBadAsHell's points, and that's the murder of her father.

Your the only person who saw any merit in my viewpoint . Thanks for fair consideration. I guess we will RAFO if I’m right or wrong !

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

That’s a beautiful take on it , well said . It’s so well said I actually hate pointing out this one fact . Shallan father never once hit her. I don’t know if it was Love of her, or fear of pattern but she was never touched . He beat her brothers in her stead . So she is the only person who was. Never scared of her father . And the only one who wanted to stick by him, when all others wanted to abandon him. So his Death is also what started me thinking  something is not right with her!

Did I say he hit her? If you think Shallan wasn't scared of him and what he would do to others you need to reread her flashbacks.

Abuse is more than just physical. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Calderis

[cfphelps]

On 7/7/2018 at 3:23 PM, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Thing is Calderis I do see the merits of your arguments . But I still disagree . Not all killers are sociopaths . I think she could of found an alternative to killing Tyn if she was the scared little girl. Cutting her arms or legs with a shardblade and crippling her for life. That would stop any chance of Tyn killing Shallan , but it would expose Shallan so she opted to kill her. 

Shallon didn't have time to think through a ton of options.  Again, she's a frightened person, who reacted how she had to in order to survive.  She hadn't even fully admitted to herself that she had a shard blade, or one that could be summoned instantly at that point.  She was not the sort of calm individual who could take a step back and consider her reactions.

3 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

That’s a beautiful take on it , well said . It’s so well said I actually hate pointing out this one fact . Shallan father never once hit her. I don’t know if it was Love of her, or fear of pattern but she was never touched . He beat her brothers in her stead . So she is the only person who was. Never scared of her father . And the only one who wanted to stick by him, when all others wanted to abandon him. So his Death is also what started me thinking  something is not right with her!

 

Your the only person who saw any merit in my viewpoint . Thanks for fair consideration. I guess we will RAFO if I’m right or wrong !

She was scared to leave her room because if she acted out, her father beat someone else in her place.  She was clinging to the family she remembered with not wanting to leave her father, but she was definitely afraid of him and abused by him in non-physical ways.

[CrazyRioter]

Yeah she was definitely abused, even if it wasn't physical. Emotional abuse is still abuse.

[Gray to]

Wow, OK uh, I'm just gonna sidestep this Shallan debate and make my post.

I think the character with the most named kills is Helaran. I mean he basically killed Kaladin's entire squad (22 out of 26). However, looking at that passage in WoK, only 9 of them are named. 11 if you count Larn and Korater, who were killed by Helaran but weren't specifically named when he was on his killing spree.