Quantus he/him Posted July 18, 2019 Posted July 18, 2019 19 hours ago, SplinterOfHonor said: To me, the word 'unlimited' in the WoB implies that 1) The total amount of Voidlight accessible is infinite, and 2) The rate at which Voidlight can be used is infinite. Since the WoB says that it is not unlimited, one or both of these is not true. Since the Fused are probably directly connected to Odium, the total amount of Voidlight accessible is practically infinite (any Investiture they use goes directly back to their source, like with Allomancy and Preservation). This would mean that the rate at which they use it is limited. This provides for contrast in limitations between the Fused and KR. The Fused have unlimited Voidlight, but limited rates of use, while the KR have unlimited rate of use (however many Lashings Kaladin wants, for example), but limited amounts (how many spheres are around). Ignoring the special cases of highstorms and Dalinar being epic, this would explain the differences in ability to accelerate and stay aloft we see in OB. Regarding the Larkin's absorption of Voidlight killing a Fused, I don't exactly remember how that scene goes, but I'd guess that the Fused require a certain constant amount of Voidlight to possess a singer body, and the Larkin's rate of drain was greater than the rate of supply, removing all Voidlight long enough to kill it. Any Shard is (for all practical purposes) Infinite in their total energy, so Voidlight is going to be so just like Allomantic preservation Power, the Dor, etc. But just like all the other examples we know, it takes a Connection, a Conduit, to get that energy from the Spiritual Realm to the Physical. So far that has either been a finite Connection directly back to the Shard (like Allomancy), the Storm for Honor, or the natural realmic Connection within a person for Feruchemy or Breaths. 16 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Personally I think Occam's Razor. The simplest answer to what happened with the larkin is that it ate the voidlight that the fused had. Then the fused was killed. I take the WoB and information as simply the fused hold voidlight perfectly while radiants leak. If I give you a squeeze bottle full of water, and then cut a hole in its side, when you squeeze out the water, you get less for a shorter time. If however you have a squeeze bottle full of water, and squeeze it steadily, it lasts for far longer. Or put it to numbers. Making up arbitrary number 100. If every time a radiant holds stormlight, he or she passively loses 10 stormlight regardless of their usage, while a fused loses none, the numbers will reflect that rather quickly. Lets say using the same ability at the same strength uses up 15. That means every moment of use, the radiant loses 25, while the fused loses 15. In 4 "rounds" the radiant is empty, while the fused still had 40, or 2.6 more "rounds" of use. And that is not counting the "flaring" of surges that radiants frequently do. Honestly I think the best explanation for the Larkin v. Fused instance is even simpler: The larkin simply Ate the cognitive shadow right out of the host. The Fused ARE Investiture, they are just cognitive Shadows riding piggyback on Singer bodies while inhabiting their Gemheart, so they'd be just as vulnerable to a Larkin's appetite as inert stormlight sitting in a gem, or any spren for that matter. Which, now that I think about it, likely means that a Larkin could forcibly remove a Singer's Form by eating the spren that was residing in their Gemheart. 1
Pathfinder Posted July 18, 2019 Posted July 18, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, Quantus said: Any Shard is (for all practical purposes) Infinite in their total energy, so Voidlight is going to be so just like Allomantic preservation Power, the Dor, etc. But just like all the other examples we know, it takes a Connection, a Conduit, to get that energy from the Spiritual Realm to the Physical. So far that has either been a finite Connection directly back to the Shard (like Allomancy), the Storm for Honor, or the natural realmic Connection within a person for Feruchemy or Breaths. Honestly I think the best explanation for the Larkin v. Fused instance is even simpler: The larkin simply Ate the cognitive shadow right out of the host. The Fused ARE Investiture, they are just cognitive Shadows riding piggyback on Singer bodies while inhabiting their Gemheart, so they'd be just as vulnerable to a Larkin's appetite as inert stormlight sitting in a gem, or any spren for that matter. Which, now that I think about it, likely means that a Larkin could forcibly remove a Singer's Form by eating the spren that was residing in their Gemheart. So I was about to say great catch and idea, but I checked the scene and I think I found a hitch in that theory. When a fused takes over a parshendi's body, the previous occupant is pushed out and dies. In the scene Chiri eats the investiture, but the fused is still up and talking enough to go after Rysn. Rysn then fires the crossbow killing it. If Chiri ate the fused then the body should have collapsed dead due to no occupant Edited July 18, 2019 by Pathfinder 1
Quantus he/him Posted July 19, 2019 Posted July 19, 2019 14 hours ago, Pathfinder said: So I was about to say great catch and idea, but I checked the scene and I think I found a hitch in that theory. When a fused takes over a parshendi's body, the previous occupant is pushed out and dies. In the scene Chiri eats the investiture, but the fused is still up and talking enough to go after Rysn. Rysn then fires the crossbow killing it. If Chiri ate the fused then the body should have collapsed dead due to no occupant Oh, damnation, ya that kills it, at least for that instance. Im still curious what would happen to a normal Singer, if a Larkin could eat the Spren out of their gemheart and force them out of their form.
Pathfinder Posted July 19, 2019 Posted July 19, 2019 3 hours ago, Quantus said: Oh, damnation, ya that kills it, at least for that instance. Im still curious what would happen to a normal Singer, if a Larkin could eat the Spren out of their gemheart and force them out of their form. I don't think so unless we are considering the lesser spren that singers bond to as less invested. Below I found a bunch of WoB that give ideas, but nothing definite. The reason why I think not, is because of the one that says it would be extremely difficult for a nightblood, a leecher, or a larkin to destroy a shardblade Questioner If you were a Leecher, could you destroy a Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson I'm going to RAFO that for now, let's just say that it would be incredibly difficult if it were possible, and I'm not going to even say if it is. But that kind of power... Questioner Let's just say they were burning duralumin as well. Brandon Sanderson Let's just say that the Investiture in a Shardblade is much greater than your average Allomancer, but... This type of thing is not unheard of in the Cosmere. The larkin, the Leechers, and Nightblood all have a similar sort of thing going on. Destroying a Shardblade would be really hard. And Investiture resists other forms of Investiture, so. Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016) FirstRyder Could Aluminum be used to protect a Surgebinder from a larkin? Brandon Sanderson Yes. havoc_mayhem Would a larkin be able to steal Stormlight from a surgebinder wearing Shardplate? Any comments on whether Shardplate or aluminium would be more effective protection? Brandon Sanderson Getting through both would be relatively equal--with the problem being that Shardplate is powered by investiture, which the larkin could feed on. So aluminum is better in that specific case. Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 19, 2016) coltonx9 Are there types of Investiture that the larkin can't consume? Brandon Sanderson Yes, I would say that there are, but it's going to depend on the state they're in. Pure Investiture, a larkin is always going to probably be able to grab, but lots of people can get pure Investiture. Kinetic Investiture they're are gonna have a good chance at being able to grab, but they can't get everything. Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018) 3
Quantus he/him Posted July 19, 2019 Posted July 19, 2019 38 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: I don't think so unless we are considering the lesser spren that singers bond to as less invested. Below I found a bunch of WoB that give ideas, but nothing definite. The reason why I think not, is because of the one that says it would be extremely difficult for a nightblood, a leecher, or a larkin to destroy a shardblade [snip WOB's for length] Almost certainly less Invested compared to sapient spren at least, insofar as that scale goes. I suppose I expect that if larkin can suck the spren out of a fabrial (do we have an example of this?), there's a reasonable chance they could get sucked out of the Singers (or greatshells, etc). Unless the gemheart bond Form change offer some Identity-based protection against Investiture effects the same way plate does, which is entirely possible. Although now that I say that, being inside a Singer might be enough protection all on it's own, if we look at pushing on metal inside a person as an example.
Pathfinder Posted July 19, 2019 Posted July 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Quantus said: Almost certainly less Invested compared to sapient spren at least, insofar as that scale goes. I suppose I expect that if larkin can suck the spren out of a fabrial (do we have an example of this?), there's a reasonable chance they could get sucked out of the Singers (or greatshells, etc). Unless the gemheart bond Form change offer some Identity-based protection against Investiture effects the same way plate does, which is entirely possible. Although now that I say that, being inside a Singer might be enough protection all on it's own, if we look at pushing on metal inside a person as an example. I think with the way a parshendi bonds with a spren, would prevent the spren from being eaten by the larkin. At least that is my interpretation of the information.
Karger he/him Posted July 19, 2019 Posted July 19, 2019 10 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: I think with the way a parshendi bonds with a spren, would prevent the spren from being eaten by the larkin. At least that is my interpretation of the information. I am not convinced that a larkin can easily eat a spren. Spren have their own identity. That might make it harder. Also if they could subsist on spren they would be widely seen across Roshar but they are not.
Pathfinder Posted July 19, 2019 Posted July 19, 2019 29 minutes ago, Karger said: I am not convinced that a larkin can easily eat a spren. Spren have their own identity. That might make it harder. Also if they could subsist on spren they would be widely seen across Roshar but they are not. Well the reason they are not widely seen is their greatshell form was almost wiped out. Much like what is being done to chasmfiends now.
Karger he/him Posted July 19, 2019 Posted July 19, 2019 11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Well the reason they are not widely seen is their greatshell form was almost wiped out. Much like what is being done to chasmfiends now. Most of them were apparently destroyed during the scouring of aiimia. That is one remote island. If they can subsist on spren they should be much more widely available. Also if they can Chiru Chiru would not need to be fed. She(she is a she right?) could just eat the concentration or logic spren that periodically concentrate around the individuals in the accounting office.
Quantus he/him Posted July 19, 2019 Posted July 19, 2019 14 minutes ago, Karger said: Most of them were apparently destroyed during the scouring of aiimia. That is one remote island. If they can subsist on spren they should be much more widely available. Also if they can Chiru Chiru would not need to be fed. She(she is a she right?) could just eat the concentration or logic spren that periodically concentrate around the individuals in the accounting office. It's possible that Larkin have difficulty eating spren, particularly the more sapient spren that appear to be proportionally more Invested. On the other hand, it's possible that Spren have simply learned to avoid larkin like the embodiment of Investiture death that they are, purely as a survival adaptation. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: I think with the way a parshendi bonds with a spren, would prevent the spren from being eaten by the larkin. At least that is my interpretation of the information. Between the bond and the internal nature of the Gemheart, I think you are probably right. I do wonder if they could suck one out of a Fabrial though. If so, a larkin might even be able to eat a trapped UnMade, which has some serious tactical implications. 1
Pathfinder Posted July 19, 2019 Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Karger said: Most of them were apparently destroyed during the scouring of aiimia. That is one remote island. If they can subsist on spren they should be much more widely available. Also if they can Chiru Chiru would not need to be fed. She(she is a she right?) could just eat the concentration or logic spren that periodically concentrate around the individuals in the accounting office. Chasmfiends have been shown to eat just about anything, yet they seem to be limited to the Shattered Plains. Why are they not more prevalent across Roshar? Maybe it is their life cycle. Maybe it is how often they breed. We don't know. Personally I do not think Larkins eat spren, but their prevalence or lack there of I do not believe is evidence for or against it. That is however, a good point that we have not see Chiri eating any spren around Rysn. Then again I do not recall us seeing Rysn with spren around her when we see her in Oathbringer. So that may not be entirely conclusive. 22 minutes ago, Quantus said: It's possible that Larkin have difficulty eating spren, particularly the more sapient spren that appear to be proportionally more Invested. On the other hand, it's possible that Spren have simply learned to avoid larkin like the embodiment of Investiture death that they are, purely as a survival adaptation. Possibly. I do not think that is the case, but as I mentioned above, I do not recall any spren popping up around Rysn or the people around her when we see her on screen with Chiri. So theoretically Chiri could have either eaten them all, or scared them away. I do not think that is the case, but it is certainly plausible. Quote Between the bond and the internal nature of the Gemheart, I think you are probably right. I do wonder if they could suck one out of a Fabrial though. If so, a larkin might even be able to eat a trapped UnMade, which has some serious tactical implications. The Unmade I think we would run into the same issue mentioned in another thread I think? Where a Larkin is still a living thing that could theoretically become full before it has fully devoured said Unmade. edit: of note, I am re-reading that scene in full. Rysn has a fabrial hotplate for making tea. It is drained of stormlight because Chiri ate it, but the implication to me of mentioning the lack of stormlight is that if it was recharged it would work again, which says to me the heating spren inside is still intact. Now it could be said that Chiri just wasn't hungry enough to eat that too, but in the scene Chiri was eyeing Rysn's gemstone for light hungrily even though she had just ate. So this might be evidence that Larkins do not feast upon spren within fabrials at least. edit 2: confirmed after reading full scene, no mention of spren Edited July 19, 2019 by Pathfinder 3
Quantus he/him Posted July 19, 2019 Posted July 19, 2019 13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: The Unmade I think we would run into the same issue mentioned in another thread I think? Where a Larkin is still a living thing that could theoretically become full before it has fully devoured said Unmade. On one hand that would make sense. On the other hand that would imply something akin to a stomach and Investiture digestive process; which seems odd to me but then even Nightblood gets overloaded and Drunk on Investiture when he eats too much. The alternative is that they are perpetually hungry and will swell to however much Investiture is available, but if nothing else that makes them pretty damnation dangerous. 13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: edit: of note, I am re-reading that scene in full. Rysn has a fabrial hotplate for making tea. It is drained of stormlight because Chiri ate it, but the implication to me of mentioning the lack of stormlight is that if it was recharged it would work again, which says to me the heating spren inside is still intact. Now it could be said that Chiri just wasn't hungry enough to eat that too, but in the scene Chiri was eyeing Rysn's gemstone for light hungrily even though she had just ate. So this might be evidence that Larkins do not feast upon spren within fabrials at least. edit 2: confirmed after reading full scene, no mention of spren That's a great datapoint! So it sounds like the Larkin is only able to eat static, stored Investiture, not that tied up in a being. Since you just reviewed the scene, any mention of it eating any sort of kinetic Investiture effect (an active Surge or anything) or for that matter feeding directly from the Perpendicularity? It's starting to sound like they only eat stored investiture (in a person or a gem). 1
Pathfinder Posted July 19, 2019 Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Quantus said: On one hand that would make sense. On the other hand that would imply something akin to a stomach and Investiture digestive process; which seems odd to me but then even Nightblood gets overloaded and Drunk on Investiture when he eats too much. The alternative is that they are perpetually hungry and will swell to however much Investiture is available, but if nothing else that makes them pretty damnation dangerous. When Chiri is done feeding from the voidbringer, she just clicks happily, so nothing there to know whether that is a happily full noise, or just a happy noise that she just ate. Quote That's a great datapoint! So it sounds like the Larkin is only able to eat static, stored Investiture, not that tied up in a being. Since you just reviewed the scene, any mention of it eating any sort of kinetic Investiture effect (an active Surge or anything) or for that matter feeding directly from the Perpendicularity? It's starting to sound like they only eat stored investiture (in a person or a gem). Glad to help. The voidbringer in question did have an on going illusion making it appear to be human. When Chiri fed on the voidbringer, the illusion failed, and the passive healing the fused was enjoying ended. So it appears a Larkin does eat active surges, at least the voidbringer version of it. Or eats the voidlight fueling the surge, thus ending it. edit: might as well post the relevant portion regarding feeding on the fused: Oathbringer page 1067 A sudden blur darted out of the darkness and flew around the thief. Chiri-Chiri moved with blinding speed, hovering about the man, drawing his attention. Rysn frantically placed the crossbow bolt, then took the captain's cord off the ruby's sack and tied one end to the stirrup at the front of the crossbow. She tied the other end to the back of her heavy wooden chair. That done, she pared a glance for Chir-Chiri, the hesitated. The larkin was feeding off the thief. A line of light streamed from him, but it was a strange dark violet light. Chiri-Chiri flew about, drawing it from the man, whose face melted away, revealing marbled skin underneath.....(added the dots because the next paragraph dealing with the fused swatting at Chiri, coupled with Rysn putting together the crossbow I felt was not pertinent and wasted space for this post) The crossbow bolt hit him right in the chin. He dropped and, blessedly, fell still. Whatever power had been healing him was gone, consumed by Chiri-Chiri. The larkin buzzed over and landed on her stomach, clicking happily. "Thank you" Rysn whispered, sweat streaming down the sides of her face. "Thank you, thank you" She hesitated "Are you...bigger?" Chiri-Chiri clicked happily. Edited July 19, 2019 by Pathfinder 1
Karger he/him Posted July 19, 2019 Posted July 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Chasmfiends have been shown to eat just about anything, yet they seem to be limited to the Shattered Plains. Why are they not more prevalent across Roshar? They likely need a large amount of food, a low population of predators(humans) and good places to form chrysalises(the Shattered plains). 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: That is however, a good point that we have not see Chiri eating any spren around Rysn. Then again I do not recall us seeing Rysn with spren around her when we see her in Oathbringer. So that may not be entirely conclusive. Spren are kind of around on Roshar. Rysn makes a point of how irritating feeding Chiri is "you just ate." If Chiri could fend for herself I think Rysn would know by now. 1
Pathfinder Posted July 20, 2019 Posted July 20, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Karger said: They likely need a large amount of food, a low population of predators(humans) and good places to form chrysalises(the Shattered plains). Prior to humans the chasmfiends were apex predators. Brandon has compared what is happening to them to whaling. Quote Spren are kind of around on Roshar. Rysn makes a point of how irritating feeding Chiri is "you just ate." If Chiri could fend for herself I think Rysn would know by now. please read the scene we are discussing. I checked it myself. No mention of any spren manifesting. No shame spren when Rysn felt ashamed. So fear spren when they were attacked. No spren were mentioned. They were in the vault. Chiri went for her only source of light, and she had to grab Chiri to prevent her from eating the stormlight at the guards belt when they entered. Still no mention of spren. Regardless, as I mentioned, there was a fabrial there. Fabrials work because of spren. Chiri did ate the stormlight, but presumably it could be recharged, which means the spren is probably intact, so that would lend credence to spren not being on the larkin's diet. edit: to clarify, other then the fabrial we do not have any spren interactions to know how larkins function around spren. Having said that, I personally do not believe that larkin eat spren and believe the fabrial is evidence as much. Edited July 20, 2019 by Pathfinder 1
ScavellTane Posted July 20, 2019 Posted July 20, 2019 It might not be that larkin dont eat spren but that spren keep away from larkin.
cometaryorbit Posted July 20, 2019 Posted July 20, 2019 A normal spren might not be sufficiently "present" in the Physical Realm to eat. OTOH, maybe it's something else, I mean, if larkins ate Shardblades I think we would have heard about it... (Though maybe that's where all those extra shardblades in Dalinar's Recreance vision went )
Pathfinder Posted July 22, 2019 Posted July 22, 2019 On 7/19/2019 at 11:04 PM, ScavellTane said: It might not be that larkin dont eat spren but that spren keep away from larkin. On 7/20/2019 at 0:19 AM, cometaryorbit said: A normal spren might not be sufficiently "present" in the Physical Realm to eat. Both above are good points to consider. On 7/20/2019 at 0:19 AM, cometaryorbit said: OTOH, maybe it's something else, I mean, if larkins ate Shardblades I think we would have heard about it... (Though maybe that's where all those extra shardblades in Dalinar's Recreance vision went ) Apparently a larkin could potentially destroy a shardblade, but it would be really really really hard. WoB below: Questioner If you were a Leecher, could you destroy a Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson I'm going to RAFO that for now, let's just say that it would be incredibly difficult if it were possible, and I'm not going to even say if it is. But that kind of power... Questioner Let's just say they were burning duralumin as well. Brandon Sanderson Let's just say that the Investiture in a Shardblade is much greater than your average Allomancer, but... This type of thing is not unheard of in the Cosmere. The larkin, the Leechers, and Nightblood all have a similar sort of thing going on. Destroying a Shardblade would be really hard. And Investiture resists other forms of Investiture, so. Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016)
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