Gender, Spren & the Nahel Bond

[masaru]

It appears that the male/female split in a Nahel bond is not really necessary, despite the opposite genders of Sly (Kaladin), Pattern (Shallan), and Ivory (Jasnah).

 

I found it quite curious that when Dalinar was elevated to Bondsmith, that The Stormfather (a male-seeming spren) would be serving as Dalinar's spren in their Nahel bond (albeit a very cantankerous spren). And then, it was followed up right away with the revelation that Renarin's spren, Glys, is also male. Should we understand from this that gender is either fairly fluid for spren or that the gender doesn't matter?

 

Or perhaps that each type of spren is a certain gender? All honorspren are female, all cryptics are male?

 

 

I WILL NOT LET MYSELF BE BOUND IN SUCH A WAY AS TO KILL ME!

 

I WILL NOT BE A SIMPLE SWORD TO YOU, the Stormfather warned. I WILL NOT COME AS YOU CALL, AND YOU WILL HAVE TO DIVEST YOURSELF OF THAT...MONSTROSITY THAT YOU CARRY. YOU WILL BE A RADIANT WITH NO SHARDS.

[Argent]

I think all spren of a given type manifest in the physical realm with the same gender - when gender is applicable. Gut feeling only, unfortunately.

[Moogle]

Glys (Renarin's male spren) and Ym's feminine-sounding growing-light spren of the same type as Glys seem to imply that spren can be either gender and it's mostly a fluke that all the Surgebinders we've seen have been paired with the opposite gender.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Moogle

[vandalhearts]

I think the gender of the spren depends on the perception of the person bonded to it. There are some excerpts from WoK that support this.

 

 

She -- Kaladin couldn't help but think of the windspren as a she...

 

I think there is a conversation that confirms spren don't have a gender but I can't find it right now.

[masaru]

Glys (Renarin's male spren) and Ym's feminine-sounding growing-light spren of the same type as Glys seem to imply that spren can be either gender and it's mostly a fluke that all the Surgebinders we've seen have been paired with the opposite gender.

 

I'd forgot about Ym and his spren. That does through a wrinkle into the single gender for a spren idea. Ym must be a Truthwatcher, after all.

[Windrunner]

There are definitely both male and female honorspren. Syl mentions that she would have seen one of her brothers or sisters with Szeth.

[Kurkistan]

I think all spren of a given type manifest in the physical realm with the same gender - when gender is applicable. Gut feeling only, unfortunately.

 

There are both male and female windspren around Kaladin during his final fight with Szeth.

[hoser]

This seems really interesting.  Pattern describes being part of everything, then gaining consciousness.  Questions just manifest like creationspren around Shallan.

1. Is the era in which the spren comes to sentience relevant to the gender that it manifests as?
2. If some people in a given era see honor as feminine and others see it as masculine, do we get some of each gender or do they all take the prevailing perceived gender of the time?
3. Does location matter?  If an honorspren manifests in the part of Shadesmar corresponding to Alethkar at a time when honor is perceived as masculine in Alethkar become male?

[Argent]

Drat! I was going to argue the both genders theory first, but couldn't think of an example, so I went with monogender spren. Serves me right...

[Cheeky-eyes]

I believe perception has a lot to do with what gender they manifest as. It could be argued that an unbonded sprens  gender could fluctuate depending on the general views of the time, but their gender could also depend on how they view themselves. I imagine that is an important factor since how objects such as tables and goblets view themselves in the Cognitive Realm is crucial for Soulcasting.  So maybe with bonded spen is could be a combination of how the spren themselves feel and how the person they are drawn too perceives them, with one being more important then the other as time goes by. 

[Zizoz]

I'd forgot about Ym and his spren. That does through a wrinkle into the single gender for a spren idea. Ym must be a Truthwatcher, after all.

 

Ym could also be an Edgedancer. It seems likely, even, given the herald icons for his chapter (all Vev).

[hoser]

Ym could also be an Edgedancer. It seems likely, even, given the herald icons for his chapter (all Vev).

I would call Ym as Edgedancer unlikely as his spren did not resemble Wyndle at all, his spren called for him to use the light (perhaps as in an illusion) and he did not manipulate friction to escape.  The spren seems appropriate for one that grants the illumination surge. 

[Zizoz]

We haven't met any two spren whose knights are of the same order, so we can't say how alike they ought to look. The "light" comment is decent evidence, though. And I'll admit that trying to guess orders from herald icons is far from perfect. (For instance, none of Dalinar's chapters in TWoK have the Ishi icon, even though we think that's his order. It does appear pretty often on his WoR chapters, though.)

[Khyrindor]

I think that the spren are monogender, until their bonder decides what gender they are. Kaladin first thought of Syl as female, and so she was. We know that Spren are based on belief. The only problem is I can't remember if Shallan thought the same about Patter... I'll go check......First thing:

"But we're women!""Yes," Jasnah said lightly. "Spren don't suffer from human society's prejudices. Refreshing, wouldn't you say?"

(haven't found the Shallan thing yet, but thought this might be relevant. Page 69, First-Second Paragraph, for those who want to check for themselves. Hardback.)As for Pattern, Shallan first mentions him as a male at the beginning of Chapter 6 (I think).

She wrote with gloved fingers as she observed the spren she'd named Pattern. At the moment he had lifted himself up off the surface of the deck...

A bit inconclusive but I hope it helps