Real reasons for Shattering Adonalsium?

[KalaDANG]

Okay, I know that this sounds kind of crazy, but what if the original reason the 16 and whoever they worked with Shattered Adonalsium because they had decided that the full and complete power of creation was too dangerous in one place, so they did it only in order to protect the power from being abused by others, and used for evil and destruction? We know that there were and are forces consciously opposing Adonalsium from this WoB-

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CLAYTONPHILLIPS ()
Before Adonalsium shattered, was it consciously opposed by something, be it people or another cosmic force? Is whatever opposed it still around?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Yes. Yes.

 who even at one point created a weapon.

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CHAOS (17TH SHARD)
There is an opposing force to Adonalsium, and at the midnight release, I asked Brandon to write in my book something about that opposing force. He wrote:

BRANDON SANDERSON
There was a weapon created by the opposition of Adonalsium.

At one point, there was even a plot to destroy Adonalsium.

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MRIEL452 (PARAPHRASED) (17TH SHARD)
My request was "to tell me something about the cosmere that has not been previously mentioned" and this is what I received:
BRANDON SANDERSON
Long ago there was a plot to destroy Adonalsium. It failed.

Obviously, the story of the shattering isn't as simple as "A bunch of greedy, and power hungry people broke apart the power of creation so they could assume the power and become deity." That makes the original vessels out to have all been horrible people, but we actually know for a fact that at least one of the original 16 was an extremely good and generous person. 

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"Ati was once a kind and generous man..." First Letter, Words of Radiance - Hoid

Obviously he doesn't really fit the mold of the evil kind of person who would destroy the power of creation for selfish reasons. I think it's more likely that it was decided between the Dragons, Humans, and Sho Del, that the concentrated power of Adonalsium was too dangerous, and vulnerable where it was. It could even be that THEY were the ones Brandon was speaking of when he referenced the plot to destroy Adonalsium. Brandon himself said that when he says that there was a group or force opposing Adonalsium, that doesn't necessarily mean there is another cosmic entity or anything, but those who Shattered Adonalsium would be described as "Opposing Adonalsium." So it's possible that this plot is just the first attempt to get rid of the threat that the power of creation posed to their planet, and them shattering it and becoming vessels is the backup plan. When Khriss and Kelsier meet in the Cognitive Realm in Mistborn: Secret History, tells Kelsier a bit about the cosmere without going into too much detail, but she hints that for "some reason" at lease SOME of the original 16 who shattered Adonalsium did so believing that it was the final option open to them, and she even suggests that it was a last-ditch attempt at self preservation. This suggests that it was indeed those sixteen and others who tried to destroy Adonalsium earlier, but had to go with the Shattering due to the failure of their plan. We know that there were rules set out in the very beginning by the vessels regarding their conduct and how they had to stay away from each other.

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 "It is a pity about Aona and Skai, but they were foolish--violating our pact from the very beginning... No good can come of two Shards settling in one location. It was agreed that we would not interfere with one another, and it disappoints me that so few of the Shards have kept to this original agreement." Excerpt of First Oathbringer Letter, Oathbringer - Endowment (Probably)

This may have been done in order to protect the power, and the people of Yolen from the full and dangerous power of creation by ensuring that it would never become so concentrated ever again. This need to keep the power from becoming concentrated in one place makes the isolation rule make a lot more sense. As far as we know, the rule was generally upheld by the vessels in the beginning except for Honor and Cultivation, who obviously, being romantically involved, would have a bit of a hard time keeping the rule, and they arrived on Roshar together. 

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STORMATLAS

Were Cultivation and Honor romantically involved?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

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LANCE ALVEIN

Did Cultivation come to Roshar with Honor, or was she already on Roshar when Honor arrived?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good question. They came together.

As time went on though, we know that more and more shards eventually grouped up and were on the same planet. With Preservation and Ruin it's pretty easy to explain, because their Intent's could not be perfectly served alone. Without Ruin, Preservation could not perfectly create, and Ruin could not perfectly destroy. Their Shardic intent DROVE them towards each other. I don't think we really have a way to explain away Dominion and Devotion's proximity to each other. I haven't been able to find any WoB's on it, but i'm sure if we had more firsthand experience with them in books, we'd get a better idea of what about them or their intents drove them together. As I read about it more, the more I believe that the people who shattered Adonalsium and took up his shards did not know about or plan for the Shardic Intent warping and changing them. The relationship between Preservation and Ruin is a perfect example of this. We have been told by Brandon that each of the vessels CHOSE their shard. We know this from several WoB's, and it is also stated in the letter Frost sends in response to Hoid's request for help. This letter also implies that the vessels had help in shattering Adonalsium when Frost says "He is what we made him to be".

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"He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become." Excerpt of Second Letter, Words of Radiance - Frost

 If they were able to choose their shard, and they didn't know about the warping caused by the Shardic Intent like I believe, I can totally see that an extremely kind and generous person would choose Ruin, because they might think that because of who they were, the Shard would probably be safer and used in a better way than it would if it were in another's hands.

All of this begs the question though, what the floopers is Hoid trying to accomplish exactly? What's his goal? We know that Hoid is on the outs with most if not all of the shards with what we hear in Secret History when Leras says that he was surprised that Cephandrius (Hoid) still meddles so much even though he swore to have nothing to do with us. (Paraphrased) Us being the shards. So we know that Hoid is not on friendly terms with any of them. We also know that Hoid was there at the Shattering 

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Zas678 (paraphrased)

How about a confirmation one? We have a secondhand report from Miyabi actually, that says that Hoid was at the Shattering of Adonalsium. Was he there?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes he was. 

And we also know that at least in part, he viewed the shattering a being "Kind of" necessary.

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Did Hoid think of the Shattering as necessary?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

*pause* Kind of.

This does support the theory that the reason they shattered Adonalsium was because there was some threat or danger posed by him and his power being concentrated in one place, so removing parts or all of it could be necessary. We also know that Hoid had the opportunity to take up a shard, but refused.

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Questioner

Hoid was once offered a Shard, but he refused it, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Was it right after the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It was during the events. I wouldn't necessarily say "right after", it was during this process. I would say this is a RAFO before I finish writing at that time. (Not sure if I understood the last sentence right, but I think that's what he said)

Questioner

And who took this Shard instead?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

So at this point after the shattering, Hoid must have already changed his mind about the shattering being in any part necessary. And must have wanted no more part of it, and I'm thinking that it is around this time that he swears to have nothing more to do with them. I'm guessing part of it might be related to some kind of horrible or evil act committed by Rayse soon after the Shattering that proved that the danger posed was actually lesser than the dangers of having the power of creation held by unworthy people. I don't know what Rayse might have done, but obviously, because we know his character, he would not have taken long to prove that he was evil and hateful enough to deserve being called Odium. We have already seen him use the rule of isolation as an excuse to kill the other shards, and it seems like he does this so that he doesn't make any of the other Shards worry about him coming after them because THEY obey the rule. It's obviously just an excuse though, and they should definitely be worried. Ambition was obeying the rules too y'all! It is definitely possible though that Rayse and Bavadin immediately did some very not okay stuff with their new found powers. But that's 100% speculation because Brandon immediately RAFO's anything that comes close to the details of the Hoid - Rayse - Bavadin hate triangle. So now, I'm not really sure if Hoid's goals are simply to end and destroy Rayse, which could be, because we know he has beef with him, to try to get rid of all the malevolent shards, or if Hoid is simply trying to bring Adonalsium back, but he is obviously trying to make up for and fix what they did in shattering Adonalsium and bringing so many horrible and evil deities into the cosmere. I don't really know as much about Hoid's possible plans and end goal as others on the shard, so if you know or have ideas, enlighten me. Thanks for reading! I kind of feel like I was all over the place with my thoughts and ideas, so i'm sorry if it seems jumbled. Let me know what you think.

Edited June 19, 2018 by KalaDANG
Changed the title to better reflect the theory.

[Fatikis]

I agree and can follow much of what you say. However there are a few points I'd like to make.

1 hour ago, KalaDANG said:

So at this point after the shattering, Hoid must have already changed his mind about the shattering being in any part necessary. And must have wanted no more part of it, and I'm thinking that it is around this time that he swears to have nothing more to do with them.

We don't know any of this. Hoid refusing a shard does not imply that he regretted his actions or wanted no more part in it. There are a vast number of reasons that Hoid could have refused a shard. 

1 hour ago, KalaDANG said:

 I'm guessing part of it might be related to some kind of horrible or evil act committed by Rayse soon after the Shattering that proved that the danger posed was actually lesser than the dangers of having the power of creation held by unworthy people.

I'm unsure what counts as unworthy here. Rayse may have been the most worthy to wield Odium. I will not disagree that he is evil. It is very likely Rayse committed a terrible act after assuming Odium. It does sound like him.

1 hour ago, KalaDANG said:

 We have already seen him use the rule of isolation as an excuse to kill the other shards, and it seems like he does this so that he doesn't make any of the other Shards worry about him coming after them because THEY obey the rule. It's obviously just an excuse though, and they should definitely be worried. Ambition was obeying the rules too y'all! It is definitely possible though that Rayse and Bavadin immediately did some very not okay stuff with their new found powers. 

Is he using this rule to target shards? You point out that he does not seem to be. I'm not convinced he cares about the rule in anyway. As you noted the first shard he targeted was Ambition one of the only shards to not pair off.

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So now, I'm not really sure if Hoid's goals are simply to end and destroy Rayse, which could be, because we know he has beef with him, to try to get rid of all the malevolent shards, or if Hoid is simply trying to bring Adonalsium back, but he is obviously trying to make up for and fix what they did in shattering Adonalsium and bringing so many horrible and evil deities into the cosmere. I don't really know as much about Hoid's possible plans and end goal as others on the shard, so if you know or have ideas, enlighten me. Thanks for reading! I kind of feel like I was all over the place with my thoughts and ideas, so i'm sorry if it seems jumbled. Let me know what you think.

I don't think Hoids actions necessarily point towards the goal of creating Adonalsium. So far he seems to want to put an end to Odium, and it seems implied that he may be trying to bring someone back from the dead.

[Calderis]

Trying to pin down the motive of the original Vessels is not something that can easily be done. Not only do we not have the details of the circumstances that lead up to the shattering, but they were not a simply unified group. 

Per Khriss in Secret History 

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"Anyway, there was a God. Adonalsium. I don’t know if it was a force or a being, though I suspect the latter. Sixteen people, together, killed Adonalsium, ripping it apart and dividing its essence between them, becoming the first who Ascended.”

  “Who were they?” Kelsier said, trying to make sense of this.

  “A diverse group,” she said. “With equally diverse motives. Some wished for the power; others saw killing Adonalsium as the only good option left to them. Together they murdered a deity, and became divine themselves.” She smiled in a kindly way, as if to prepare him for what came next. “Two of those created this planet, Survivor, including the people on it.”

Motives this varied means that the ones who were altruistic must have viewed the necessity of their situation with desperation.

That's not a story I think we're going to be able to predict before it's written without some seriously massive clues. Considering that, beyond the original 16 themselves, the only living beings we know of from that time period are Hoid and Frost... I doubt we'll be given those clues. Most of the Cosmere is as much, or more, in the dark about this as we are. 

[Weltall]

Yeah, the best we can hope for in the way of clues is that maybe Hoid will sneak something into one of his seemingly random digressions about art or language (whether we'd recognize it as significant is another story, even with our penchant for sifting everything he says with a fine sieve and looking at it backwards, forwards, upside-down and widdershins) through which we can glean some kernel of understanding. Frost's not likely to tell us anything and the Vessels are going to drop minor hints at best. OB spoiler

Spoiler

Like what Edgli has to say about the Vessels having some agreement about going their separate ways, which may relate to the root cause of the Shattering... but it may not as well. That nearly half of the Vessels (per our current knowledge) violated the 'go separate ways' agreement tells against it but doesn't rule it out entirely.

For some reason I'd got it into my head that Brandon was going to write Mistborn Era 4, then Dragonsteel but it appears I was wrong. Not sure where that came from, weird. Anyways, we're probably going to get very little by way of solid information on the reason(s) for the Shattering until Brandon settles down to actually write the story of the event and everything leading up to it.

[KalaDANG]

Yeah, everything with the Shattering and Hoid is super vague. It was just an idea that I thought was cool. It kind of can't really be proven or disproven with the information we have. 

 

[Llarimar]

The OP has a lot of great stuff and I find it really interesting - I just want to focus on this one part though.

On 6/19/2018 at 4:24 PM, KalaDANG said:

As time went on though, we know that more and more shards eventually grouped up and were on the same planet. With Preservation and Ruin it's pretty easy to explain, because their Intent's could not be perfectly served alone. Without Ruin, Preservation could not perfectly create, and Ruin could not perfectly destroy. Their Shardic intent DROVE them towards each other. I don't think we really have a way to explain away Dominion and Devotion's proximity to each other. I haven't been able to find any WoB's on it, but i'm sure if we had more firsthand experience with them in books, we'd get a better idea of what about them or their intents drove them together.

You are right, we don't know exactly know the reason for Dominion and Devotion's proximity.  However, I personally have always thought that Dominion and Devotion represent two different types of love.  Dominion is protecting someone and holding them within your responsibility, while Devotion is loyalty and compassion for someone.  By themselves, they are incomplete - Dominion by itself is about abusive control and authority, and Devotion is about obsessive adoration for someone without any regard for self.  A person could become so consumed by Dominion that that they disregard the needs of the person they are protecting and care only about themselves.  A person could also become so consumed by Devotion that they disregard their own needs and care only about the person they love, supporting them no matter what even if it isn't in their own best interests or if the relationship is dangerous.  They are both unhealthy forms of love, but when combined they create a balance.  When you have equal parts Dominion and Devotion, you will care about your own needs without subjugating and disregarding the person you love, and you will also care about their needs without losing yourself in blind infatuation.  

Maybe that's a bit far-fetched, but it makes sense to me.  I suppose that Dominion and Devotion could have just joined together randomly, or maybe they knew each other before the Shattering.  There doesn't necessarily have to be a synergy between two Shards - I can't think of one that exists between Cultivation and Honor for example, but it's still interesting to try and find one.   

[Nathrangking]

12 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

The OP has a lot of great stuff and I find it really interesting - I just want to focus on this one part though.

You are right, we don't know exactly know the reason for Dominion and Devotion's proximity.  However, I personally have always thought that Dominion and Devotion represent two different types of love.  Dominion is protecting someone and holding them within your responsibility, while Devotion is loyalty and compassion for someone.  By themselves, they are incomplete - Dominion by itself is about abusive control and authority, and Devotion is about obsessive adoration for someone without any regard for self.  A person could become so consumed by Dominion that that they disregard the needs of the person they are protecting and care only about themselves.  A person could also become so consumed by Devotion that they disregard their own needs and care only about the person they love, supporting them no matter what even if it isn't in their own best interests or if the relationship is dangerous.  They are both unhealthy forms of love, but when combined they create a balance.  When you have equal parts Dominion and Devotion, you will care about your own needs without subjugating and disregarding the person you love, and you will also care about their needs without losing yourself in blind infatuation.  

Maybe that's a bit far-fetched, but it makes sense to me.  I suppose that Dominion and Devotion could have just joined together randomly, or maybe they knew each other before the Shattering.  There doesn't necessarily have to be a synergy between two Shards - I can't think of one that exists between Cultivation and Honor for example, but it's still interesting to try and find one.   

As far as Cultivation and Honor is concerned there is a WoB that they loved each other prior to the shattering.

Seonid

If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

She did.

source

 

 

StormAtlas (paraphrased)

Were Cultivation and Honor romantically involved?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

source Edited June 21, 2018 by Nathrangking