[OB] Why Would Odium Do That?

[Naurock]

So this kinda bothered me in the book and I don't understand why Odium would accept Dalinar's challenge. When the challenge was introduced in earlier books I thought it was more of a end series situation.

In the visions The Almighty tells Dalinar to make Odium think can lose, to vex him so he would agree to a contest of champions. Why would Odium agree and try to appoint Dalinar as his champion? 

Let's just recap: Odium has been on Roshar for approximately 7000 years, right? He had almost won before because he had run down human civilization. He had broken the Heralds causing them to abandon Taln. Since then the protectors, the Radiants, had forsaken their oaths leaving no remnants to remind humans of the incoming fate. 

Now the desolation has started and nobody, including the world's foremost scholar Jasnah, knows all of the incoming dangers. As it seems there's several Unmade that have yet to be freed, most of Odium's best fighters have yet to be awakened, and the Heralds that were supposed to be there to help them are long insane and useless. Why would Odium get impatient and agree to a battle of champions when he could just wait for a few years, at most, to have his forces just steamroll the unprepared planet?

They couldn't have "vexed him" already. I understand the benefit of cutting off the head of the resistance, but considering the massive amount of risk involved in losing, why not just wait?

[go_go_gragdet]

Quote

Now the desolation has started and nobody, including the world's foremost scholar Jasnah, knows all of the incoming dangers. As it seems there's several Unmade that have yet to be freed, most of Odium's best fighters have yet to be awakened, and the Heralds that were supposed to be there to help them are long insane and useless.

Well, I know "all the Heralds are crazy", but didn't Taln think they were actually better off this time around, given that four thousand years had passed since the last desolation?

 

[Gray to]

I think Odium thought that by returning Dalinar's memories, he would break and then fall to his side. Then, with the most fearsome warrior on Roshar at his side, Odium could decimate the humans.

42 minutes ago, go_go_gragdet said:

Well, I know "all the Heralds are crazy", but didn't Taln think they were actually better off this time around, given that four thousand years had passed since the last desolation?

 

And Odium would want a human champion on his side because he's worried that in the last 4500 year, the humans have technologically evolved to the point that they could defeat his forces if they united. Getting Dalinar probably would have ensured his confidence in victory.

[Naurock]

5 hours ago, go_go_gragdet said:

Well, I know "all the Heralds are crazy", but didn't Taln think they were actually better off this time around, given that four thousand years had passed since the last desolation?

 

Taln seems to be operating under the assumption that the remaining Heralds had stayed to guide humanity.

[Isilel]

8 hours ago, Naurock said:

 Why would Odium agree and try to appoint Dalinar as his champion?

Well, first of all, Odium thought that he couldn't lose since Dalinar had been unwittingly "his" for so long through his susceptibility to and addiction to the Thrill. So, why wait?

Secondly, we don't really know for sure what the winning condition for Odium is. Dalinar said (paraphrasing): "You can conquer us or you can kill us, but it won't set you free" - and Odium agreed with him. So, whatever the Fused may fondly hope, the Desolations were only means to an end, and eradicating humanity on Roshar isn't the ultimate goal. Honor might have overextended  and fatally weakened himself trying to protect humans, but Cultivation doesn't seem overly fond of them and wouldn't be defeated that way. Also, Honor's death didn't release his share of Odium's bonds, so it is unclear whether even Cultivation's death would free him, if she manages to seed the Nightwatcher with her cognitive shadow in similar way. We'll have to wait and see what other options Odium has, but it is quite certain that they are more difficult and laborous.

[Nathrangking]

10 hours ago, Naurock said:

So this kinda bothered me in the book and I don't understand why Odium would accept Dalinar's challenge. When the challenge was introduced in earlier books I thought it was more of a end series situation.

In the visions The Almighty tells Dalinar to make Odium think can lose, to vex him so he would agree to a contest of champions. Why would Odium agree and try to appoint Dalinar as his champion? 

Let's just recap: Odium has been on Roshar for approximately 7000 years, right? He had almost won before because he had run down human civilization. He had broken the Heralds causing them to abandon Taln. Since then the protectors, the Radiants, had forsaken their oaths leaving no remnants to remind humans of the incoming fate. 

Now the desolation has started and nobody, including the world's foremost scholar Jasnah, knows all of the incoming dangers. As it seems there's several Unmade that have yet to be freed, most of Odium's best fighters have yet to be awakened, and the Heralds that were supposed to be there to help them are long insane and useless. Why would Odium get impatient and agree to a battle of champions when he could just wait for a few years, at most, to have his forces just steamroll the unprepared planet?

They couldn't have "vexed him" already. I understand the benefit of cutting off the head of the resistance, but considering the massive amount of risk involved in losing, why not just wait?

The challenge is not a winning move in of itself. It acts as a limit on Odium and requires him to choose a champion who will stand in for him. It allows for an equal playing field, but even if he wins that fight he is not necessarily be free. By methods we don't yet understand Honor (and perhaps cultivation as well) trapped Odium on Braize and limited his power to act freely. Dalinar could free him if he wanted to as Odium hints throughout the book. He may want Dalinar to free him and thats why now. Perhaos he wants to break the humans down so far that they will never recover. There are many options. As @Isilel pointed out Dalinar is a thrill addict and he is dangerous. If he is under odium's control our hero's may have a real problem.

[Weltall]

The Stormfather explains what Tanavast meant in the vision where he urged Dalinar to get Odium to appoint a champion. The Shards can be hurt and the wounds they receive don't fade with time. This has happened before, when he went after other Shards. By appointing a champion, Odium does not have to open himself up to the possibility of confronting the kind of force (ie Cultivation) that could hurt him in that way again. Which suggests that whatever Honor and Cultivation have done to keep Odium imprisoned, it's also binding Cultivation in some what so that she can't metaphorically stab Odium in the back while he's chatting with Dalinar, or at any point after Odium agreed to the contest.

As the Stormfather says, if Odium loses the challenge the only thing he gives up is time (which he has a literally infinite supply of) so agreeing to Dalinar's proposal means less risk for him. Given the unusual circumstances of this Desolation where humanity is fragmented and there aren't many Surgebinders but they do have much more advanced technology than the last times around, a little prudence is understandable. Oh, and he seems to be taking steps to circumvent the Oathpact so even if he loses, it's unlikely he'd have to wait nearly as long to try again next time.

As for why he agreed to the challenge right then, he appears to have been utterly convinced that he was going to have Dalinar as his champion, which might well have worked as an 'Instant Win' condition for him, since Dalinar as the Bondsmith bonded to Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow/the Stormfather, he might have been able to release Odium right then and there. Given Renarin's vision of the future where Dalinar did fall, it wouldn't be surprising if that's the exact same thing that Odium saw coming. What Odium did not expect was the subtle involvement of Cultivation, giving Dalinar the means to face his past and not break at the moment Odium expected him to.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Weltall

[Naurock]

5 hours ago, Nathrangking said:

The challenge is not a winning move in of itself. It acts as a limit on Odium and requires him to choose a champion who will stand in for him. It allows for an equal playing field, but even if he wins that fight he is not necessarily be free. By methods we don't yet understand Honor (and perhaps cultivation as well) trapped Odium on Braize and limited his power to act freely. Dalinar could free him if he wanted to as Odium hints throughout the book. He may want Dalinar to free him and thats why now. Perhaos he wants to break the humans down so far that they will never recover. There are many options. As @Isilel pointed out Dalinar is a thrill addict and he is dangerous. If he is under odium's control our hero's may have a real problem.

I don't see how you can say it isn't a winning move, as all the terms have not been laid out for us. The wording in Words of Radiance says that they need to convince Odium to do it. Why would he agree to a deal he doesn't need to make? The deal was binding enough that Taravagnian knew that Odium cannot appear to Dalinar personally anymore, because Dalinar can force him into it. This deal has the balance of the world on it.

All of the Alethi are Thrill addicts. Even the Thaylen discover it's potency in their civil war. It's a blood lust, pure and simple. Dalinar is just the most suited to controlling and channeling it from what we've seen in his past.

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

The Stormfather explains what Tanavast meant in the vision where he urged Dalinar to get Odium to appoint a champion.

Would you mind providing a book/chapter? I'm super curious about the details.

 

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

As for why he agreed to the challenge right then, he appears to have been utterly convinced that he was going to have Dalinar as his champion, which might well have worked as an 'Instant Win' condition for him

This seems like the most plausible explanation to me, which is why I kinda included it. His future sight must have made him think it was inevitable but still by now he must've seen that his future sight as to humans can be wrong. At this point after thousands of years, what's the rush? 

Edited May 13, 2018 by Naurock
Additional information

[Nathrangking]

1 hour ago, Naurock said:

I don't see how you can say it isn't a winning move, as all the terms have not been laid out for us. The wording in Words of Radiance says that they need to convince Odium to do it. Why would he agree to a deal he doesn't need to make? The deal was binding enough that Taravagnian knew that Odium cannot appear to Dalinar personally anymore, because Dalinar can force him into it. This deal has the balance of the world on it.

All of the Alethi are Thrill addicts. Even the Thaylen discover it's potency in their civil war. It's a blood lust, pure and simple. Dalinar is just the most suited to controlling and channeling it from what we've seen in his past.

Its not a winning move because he will not reach his endgame of getting free. remember he is bound by the rules of the shards and champions is one of those. If he thinks that he can win then that could compel him as Odium to make a foolish decision. Mind you he may also simply wish unbalance men by forcing them into a corner. If Odium loses the contest then he will have to regroup as he will be set back. Even a victory by wiping out mankind cannot free him. Dalinar is the perfect champion due to his raw aggression while under the thrall of the thrill. We have yet to see any who can match him while he is in that state.

[go_go_gragdet]

10 hours ago, Naurock said:

Taln seems to be operating under the assumption that the remaining Heralds had stayed to guide humanity.

Right, perhaps he's in for a disappointment.

That being said, given how bad things were during the last desolations, humans do seem at a much better starting point this time around. Not as good as they might have been with four thousand years worth of proper guidance, but still much better.

[Weltall]

3 hours ago, Naurock said:

Would you mind providing a book/chapter? I'm super curious about the details.

It's in Chapter 16, with the non-dialogue bits trimmed:

Quote

Your enemy is not a man like you. He does not age. He feels. He is angry. But this does not change, and his rage does not cool. Epochs can pass, and he will remain the same. To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal. To pick a champion, then lose, will only cost him time. He has that in plenitude. He still will not agree easily, but it is possible he will agree. If presented with the option in the right moment, the right way. Then he will be bound.

Like I said, I suspect that Odium agreed at the time he did because he was utterly convinced (not without some reason) that Dalinar would become his champion.

[Naurock]

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

It's in Chapter 16, with the non-dialogue bits trimmed:

Like I said, I suspect that Odium agreed at the time he did because he was utterly convinced (not without some reason) that Dalinar would become his champion.

Thanks Welltall. I guess the battle to him was the right moment to him. Do you think this is the first time his future sight has failed him?

[Solant]

In addition to what was stated above, I believe that Odium was unaware of Cultivation's influence on Dalinar and his memories.  Odium had been grooming Dalinar as his future champion via the Thrill for his entire adult life, and if he had remained the man we saw through his flashbacks, he surely would have succumbed to Odium's influence in part 5. 

We know through several different characters viewpoint chapters that a sign of Odiums influence is when people start having thoughts like, "I can't be blamed for what happened, it wasn't my fault, I was pushed into it", etc (Moash is the perfect example for this, as is Amaram if I remember correctly). I believe it was cultivations intention to return those memories in such a way that Dalinar would instead accept responsibility for his actions and forgive himself, enabling him to reject Odiums influence, foiling that plan completely.

[Nymeros]

On 5/12/2018 at 11:27 PM, Naurock said:

So this kinda bothered me in the book and I don't understand why Odium would accept Dalinar's challenge.

Why would Odium get impatient and agree to a battle of champions when he could just wait for a few years, at most, to have his forces just steamroll the unprepared planet?

You're overthinking it. The Shards are powered by humans and are fallible; they make choices as humans would.

 

Odium is afraid of being hurt and defeated. He doesn't want to commit his forces to a drawn out engagement. He wants the sure win where there is no risk to himself, and he isn't patient.

 

Why wouldn't he go for the Trial by Champion when there is no risk whatsoever to him and he believes his victory is assured?