Shadows for Silence Speculation

[BitBitio he/him]

Silver is not Allomantcally invested, yet works on Shades.

 

Could it kill Kelsier as a cognitive shadow?

Edited May 1, 2018 by BitBitio

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I don’t think so. The cognitive shadows on Threnody is wierd (Threnody in its entirety is wierd). They work differently on Threnody, and I doubt silver kills them somewhere else.

[Fatikis he/him]

8 hours ago, BitBitio said:

Silver is not Allomantcally invested, yet works on Shades.

 

Could it kill Kelsier as a cognitive shadow?

It depends on how shades function. They seem to be cognitive shadows that are pushed into the Physical realm. Kelsier is only in the cognitive realm during the events of Secret History. If you brought silver into the cognitive realm you could probably kill him with it.

33 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I don’t think so. The cognitive shadows on Threnody is wierd (Threnody in its entirety is wierd). They work differently on Threnody, and I doubt silver kills them somewhere else.

The properties of silver are Cosmere relevant. The effects are not isolated to Threnody. More than likely silver would harm a cognitive shadow anywhere.

Quote

Jessica, Matthew, and Jared Ashcraft

Is there significance in the fact that the world of Silence Montane uses silver for protection? (Even though there is no known Allomantic use for silver)

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Quote

Questioner

In Mistborn, silver doesn’t play a role. But then in Shadows for Silence, silver does play a role...

Brandon Sanderson

It does. I still wanted silver to be part of the Cosmere.

Questioner

But we’ll never see it in Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

It does not, as they understand currently, interact with Allomancy, with the three Metallurgic Arts. Silver does have a Cosmere role.

Hoid also carries a silver sword. which is interesting. 

Edited May 1, 2018 by Fatikis

[ScarletSabre he/him]

32 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

Hoid also carries a silver sword. which is interesting. 

Hmmm... I wonder if a silver sword, or more specifically Hoid's silver sword, could hurt Spren/Unmade?

[Weltall]

Hoid's sword is not Invested, for whatever that's worth. And I don't think it's been confirmed that it is silver, just that it looks silver. We've also seen people refer to aluminum as silver (including Nightblood's sheath, repeatedly).and Shardblades are described as silver or silvery, so unless there's a WoB I've missed, we don't know for sure what Hoid's sword is made from. But either silver or aluminum would be very interesting, given the properties both have.

And Brandon has RAFO'd whether silver has the same effect on other Cognitive Shadows as it does on Shades.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Weltall

[Fatikis he/him]

6 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Hoid's sword is not Invested, for whatever that's worth. And I don't think it's been confirmed that it is silver, just that it looks silver. We've also seen people refer to aluminum with the same words.

And Brandon has RAFO'd whether silver has the same effect on other Cognitive Shadows as it does on Shades.

Given that he has said Shades are just a subset of Cognitive Shadows more than likely silver has Cosmere ability to affect Cognitive Shadows.

[Weltall]

Probably true, but they're also seemingly a very weak form of Cognitive Shadow so they may be more vulnerable to whatever it does. Anyhow, the point is that until further notice, we don't have a definitive answer.

Oathbringer spoiler

Spoiler

I suspect that if you could permanently destroy any Cognitive Shadow with nothing more than silver, Odium would have started murdering Heralds with it thousands of years ago while they were on Braize, or would have used it against them during a Desolation.

 

[TheHeadHancho]

Probably has something to do with Ambition’s god metal

[Yata he/him]

Silver doesn't seem to affect Cognitive entities in general as they would discovered ages ago in Roshar where there are Spren everywhere and the silver is relative common.

 

[Fatikis he/him]

23 hours ago, Yata said:

Silver doesn't seem to affect Cognitive entities in general as they would discovered ages ago in Roshar where there are Spren everywhere and the silver is relative common.

 

Why would they have? Spren are a natural part of life on Roshar. Why would anyone try to kill one? Let alone experiment to find ways to kill them. That and the spren would have to be in the physical realm for it to work.

Oh and we have constant desolations. Even if it was discovered multiple times that knowledge would have been lost. 

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Fatikis said:

Why would they have? Spren are a natural part of life on Roshar. Why would anyone try to kill one? Let alone experiment to find ways to kill them. That and the spren would have to be in the physical realm for it to work.

Oh and we have constant desolations. Even if it was discovered multiple times that knowledge would have been lost. 

I didn't meant they will try.

But some interaction spren - silver would happen and this will result in an harmed Spren and in ruined silver.

It's a thing you will notice in thousands of years, if It was the case. You could misunderstood that but you will notice It.

Much more there are forces on Roshar Cosmere Aware and with all' the benefit to kill Spren

Edited May 4, 2018 by Yata

[Weltall]

To add to @Yata we have what Brandon's said about the in-universe reason why aluminum had to replace silver as an allomantic metal: It's so common that if it had a magical application people would have inevitably discovered it by accident. Aluminum had to be used because it was rare and so could plausibly work as a 'secret' metal. The same applies to Roshar, except that it would be even easier to notice because spren are pretty much omnipresent and you wouldn't even need an Invested person to do anything with the metal, so it would be much easeir to notice the interplay of silver and spren if there was one. Even the cycle of Desolations wouldn't have a huge impact here because it would be an interaction that could easily be 'rediscovered' over and over again.

And like I mentioned, there are forces on Roshar that should know this stuff if silver is seriously dangerous to spren or Cognitive Shadows and would be weaponizing it if so. In this case, the absence of evidence speaks volumes.

[Fatikis he/him]

2 hours ago, Weltall said:

To add to @Yata we have what Brandon's said about the in-universe reason why aluminum had to replace silver as an allomantic metal: It's so common that if it had a magical application people would have inevitably discovered it by accident. Aluminum had to be used because it was rare and so could plausibly work as a 'secret' metal. The same applies to Roshar, except that it would be even easier to notice because spren are pretty much omnipresent and you wouldn't even need an Invested person to do anything with the metal, so it would be much easeir to notice the interplay of silver and spren if there was one. Even the cycle of Desolations wouldn't have a huge impact here because it would be an interaction that could easily be 'rediscovered' over and over again.

And like I mentioned, there are forces on Roshar that should know this stuff if silver is seriously dangerous to spren or Cognitive Shadows and would be weaponizing it if so. In this case, the absence of evidence speaks volumes.

That isn't absence of evidence. So far things hold true in the Cosmere. All standard metal acts in the same way everywhere. Aluminum is not special in special places. It is Aluminum. It cosmere wide acts exactly the same. Silver if following the same rules is just silver. The same silver that exists everywhere. By basic logic this means silver can interact with cognitive entities.

I personally do not buy into Theronodite silver being special. No existing metal anywhere has been anything other than itself. Sanderson still wanted silver to have a place in the cosmere. It almost certainly has the same properties everywhere.

[Cosmernaut]

On 5/1/2018 at 6:36 AM, Fatikis said:

It depends on how shades function. They seem to be cognitive shadows that are pushed into the Physical realm. Kelsier is only in the cognitive realm during the events of Secret History. If you brought silver into the cognitive realm you could probably kill him with it.

The properties of silver are Cosmere relevant. The effects are not isolated to Threnody. More than likely silver would harm a cognitive shadow anywhere.

Hoid also carries a silver sword. which is interesting. 

Is Hoid's silver sword still significant? Brandon RAFO'd it at one point but at another point he said it was a symbol of office as the King's Wit. I know he also said it had personal value to Hoid.

[Yata he/him]

14 hours ago, Fatikis said:

That isn't absence of evidence. So far things hold true in the Cosmere. All standard metal acts in the same way everywhere. Aluminum is not special in special places. It is Aluminum. It cosmere wide acts exactly the same. Silver if following the same rules is just silver. The same silver that exists everywhere. By basic logic this means silver can interact with cognitive entities.

I personally do not buy into Theronodite silver being special. No existing metal anywhere has been anything other than itself. Sanderson still wanted silver to have a place in the cosmere. It almost certainly has the same properties everywhere.

Well Aluminium is Investiture-repelent...except in the Metallic Arts.

I used to think the same of you about the Silver and Its interaction with Cognitive Entities but I had to change my mind because there is no trace of such of Interactions in anyone of the planets with Cognitive Entities except Therenody.

If Silver is a Cognitive weapon of its own. This is a bad writing as nobody elsewhere notice that (also people with good Realmatic knowledge).

In Roshar there is no way to something like that to be' unknown. It could be' misunderstood (like "Spren could ruin Silver, It's One of the tricks they performe as sticks stuff together") but It will be' noticed.

damnation It there are silversmiths in Roshar (Moash's Grandparents and Roshone's Business). Do you want really believe they never attracted a Spren while at work? And this Spren by all' the cases avoided all' the Silver around?

Or Kholin's uniform have silver buttons, Syl always avoided the silver in every single scene for three books? Or Pattern that spends his time over every surface around Shallan?

I am not trying to propose a definitive answer but It's more easy there is some weirdness in the Therenody's silver OR Shades than the Silver as Cognitive Killer.

[Fatikis he/him]

43 minutes ago, Yata said:

If Silver is a Cognitive weapon of its own. This is a bad writing as nobody elsewhere notice that (also people with good Realmatic knowledge).

Not really. There is no reason for it to ever have come up. It is very possible that many people know of it. Khris, Silverlight, the Ire. We just have not heard enough from them.

Quote

In Roshar there is no way to something like that to be' unknown. It could be' misunderstood (like "Spren could ruin Silver, It's One of the tricks they performe as sticks stuff together") but It will be' noticed.

I see no reason for this. There are plenty of "obvious" things that were unknown on Earth for centuries. This for sure could be unknown on Roshar. They didn't even know how spren and Radiant bonds worked until very recently. They are still figuring out how fabrials work. It is very unlikely that they would know much about spren at all. For the most part they did not know spren stick things together as this was an action of an Honor spren who did not exist on Roshar for a very long time.

Quote

damnation It there are silversmiths in Roshar (Moash's Grandparents and Roshone's Business). Do you want really believe they never attracted a Spren while at work? And this Spren by all' the cases avoided all' the Silver around?

We have no idea. You have no idea but for some reason think it is unreasonable. Spren are fickle things that often don't show up when it is believed they should.

Quote

Or Kholin's uniform have silver buttons, Syl always avoided the silver in every single scene for three books? Or Pattern that spends his time over every surface around Shallan?

I am not trying to propose a definitive answer but It's more easy there is some weirdness in the Therenody's silver OR Shades than the Silver as Cognitive Killer.

More easy does not mean more likely. It is very clear that silver is silver in the cosmere. If it was not silver it would have been called something different. There could be something odd with shades on Therenody I will admit, but I hold to the rule that silver is the same everywhere. Just like aluminum, iron, copper, or any real metal.

Silver is not fully understood in the cosmere. We see silver colored looking pipelines in the Ire moving investiture. We have an entire city called Silverlight. Silver is likely cosmere important. There would probably be a reason why silver is used as fashion Alethkar. In Roshar as a whole we have the Silver Kingdoms.

Silver may not be just for killing but it for sure can interact with investiture in ways we don't understand.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Fatikis

[MountainKing]

How about silver just interacts with cognitive entities, but because shades are a lot weaker than other cognitive entities the effect is more common.

[Fatikis he/him]

2 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

How about silver just interacts with cognitive entities, but because shades are a lot weaker than other cognitive entities the effect is more common.

That makes a lot of sense actually.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

As a native of Threnody, what metal is Nazh's knife made of? I'd imagine Silver, but he seemed to have no issue giving it to Kelsier, despite him being a Cognitive Shadow at the time.

Edited May 6, 2018 by The One Who Connects
excess white lines

[Fatikis he/him]

23 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

As a native of Threnody, what metal is Nazh's knife made of? I'd imagine Silver, but he seemed to have no issue giving it to Kelsier, despite him being a Cognitive Shadow at the time.

It would be very useful for defending against other cognitive shadows in the cognitive realm. Especially as it seems the Ire is worried about shades. Kelsier also knows how to handle a knife. He probably is not just going to stab himself for the fun of it.

[SilverTiger she/her]

Besides the theory that something about Threnody's silver or Shades is weird, there is another possibility:

A lot of metals on the periodic table are silver or silvery in color. Threnody's "silver" could in fact be an entirely different metal (titanium, platinum, antimony, etc.) or an alloy of said other metals and silver. It could be an alloy of silver, titanium, cobalt, and copper for all we know, unless Brandon has said that the silver on Threnody is the chemical element silver, and is reasonably chemically pure (not an alloy or compound, no added materials).

[MountainKing]

7 minutes ago, SilverTiger said:

Besides the theory that something about Threnody's silver or Shades is weird, there is another possibility:

A lot of metals on the periodic table are silver or silvery in color. Threnody's "silver" could in fact be an entirely different metal (titanium, platinum, antimony, etc.) or an alloy of said other metals and silver. It could be an alloy of silver, titanium, cobalt, and copper for all we know, unless Brandon has said that the silver on Threnody is the chemical element silver, and is reasonably chemically pure (not an alloy or compound, no added materials).

We are to assume that it cold be an impure silver, but it would still be mostly silver, because Brandon never tricked us by using another real word to describe another real word thing.

[Fatikis he/him]

15 minutes ago, SilverTiger said:

Besides the theory that something about Threnody's silver or Shades is weird, there is another possibility:

A lot of metals on the periodic table are silver or silvery in color. Threnody's "silver" could in fact be an entirely different metal (titanium, platinum, antimony, etc.) or an alloy of said other metals and silver. It could be an alloy of silver, titanium, cobalt, and copper for all we know, unless Brandon has said that the silver on Threnody is the chemical element silver, and is reasonably chemically pure (not an alloy or compound, no added materials).

I doubt that Sanderson would do that. Without extreme evidence to the contrary I would say silver is silver. The element wasn't described as being silver in color but as silver. 

Quote

Jessica, Matthew, and Jared Ashcraft

Is there significance in the fact that the world of Silence Montane uses silver for protection? (Even though there is no known Allomantic use for silver)

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

Edited May 10, 2018 by Fatikis

[SilverTiger she/her]

10 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

I doubt that Sanderson would do that. Without extreme evidence to the contrary I would say silver is silver. The element wasn't described as being silver in color but as silver. 

"Silver" is both a color and a metal. And I'm leaning towards it being a silver/something alloy, mostly silver but with something else in it (like maybe Ambition's Godmetal).

[Fatikis he/him]

4 minutes ago, SilverTiger said:

"Silver" is both a color and a metal. And I'm leaning towards it being a silver/something alloy, mostly silver but with something else in it (like maybe Ambition's Godmetal).

Extremely unlikely. Silver is a key element in the survival of the people. If it was a silver alloy someone would know. They wouldn't refer to it as simply silver because the difference between naturally occurring silver and the alloy would be the difference between life and death.

They also were not describing the item as silver. They were calling it silver. There is a huge difference. In the real world it is pretty obvious if someone is referring to a silver color or silver. Here the context heavily implies they are referring to silver the material. There is no evidence that it is not silver.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Fatikis