[OB] Cusicesh is the Spren of the One (Iri's god)???

[Atxk]

Theory: Cusicesh is a spren of the Iriali god, the One

I was inspired while reading this thread from a little while ago:             (I also used some of the quotes/WoBs found in here, so credit goes to you guys)

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CONTEXT FOR THE LONG TRAIL: (you can skip if you already know abt the Long Trail, or just read for a refresher)

The Iriali generally follow the religion of the One (their god... a shard? maybe... who knows?). This religion teaches that the Iri are on an interplanetary journey called The Long Trail, going over 7 different planets. Ages ago, the One decided to split itself up into different lives so that it could experience life. These people, the Iriali, are currently on the 4th planet of the journey, Roshar. When they get to the 7th planet, they will all "gather together" and become One again, new and improved with all the experiences/lives the Iriali have lead, completing the Long Trail. 

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Botanica

“If you wish to say it that way,” Ym said. “But it is not completely true. I accept no god. You should accept no god. We are Iriali, and part of the Long Trail, of which this is the Fourth Land.”

“Accept no priests either,” Ym said. “Those are from other lands, come to preach to us. Iriali need no preaching, only experience. As each experience is different, it brings completeness. Eventually, all will be gathered back in―when the Seventh Land is attained―and we will once again become One.”

 

 Wait! The Iriali, are they nomadic people who travel between various Shardworlds? Is the "Long Trail" their travel path? So the "Fourth Land" refers to Roshar? (Roshar is exactly the fourth Shardworld we get to know. But I saw you note on the forum that we shouldn't use the publication order? Then it's hard to speculate.)

Peter

2. Yes, they travel between various Shardworlds, and this is the 4th planet they have been on.

Every Irian is part of the One...

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"One being," Ym said. He set aside that shoe and got out another. "Long ago, there was only One. One knew everything, but had experienced nothing. And so, One became many-us, people. The One, who is both male and female, did so to experience all things."

"More people did know this, once. It's not talked about as much as it should be..."

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SO ONTO THE THEORY:

Descrition from Axies' interlude in WoK

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"The column [Cusicesh] sprouted four long arms that came down around the bay, forming fingers and thumbs. They landed on golden pedestals that had been placed there..."

"Some worshipped it as a god. Most simply accepted it as part of the city. It was unique. One of the few types of spren he knew of that seemed to have only one member."

"It has formed a face, looking eastward... That face is shifting, bewilderingly quick. Different human faces appear on the end of its stump-like neck, one after another in blurred succession."

"Axies felt drained, as if something had been leeched from him. That was reported to be a common reaction."

~Cusicesh the Protector is described as being made up of many different faces flashing through in quick succession and Axies said that it was worshiped in by some in Kasitor...

As we know, spren are living ideas, eg. a firespren is people's idea of fire that has gained form in the Cognitive Realm (and shows partially in the Physical). So what idea/s formed Cusicesh? Or in other words, what is Cusicesh the spren of? Let's look at the people who would have shaped it. (Spren's genders have been influenced by human vs singer perception, so we know that the people thinking around the spren, and their social concepts have effect on spren) Cusicesh appears in the city, Kasitor, which is Iri's second largest city. Cusicesh is considered "a part of the city" so it must have been there for a long time, under influence from many Iriali's perceptions over a long time. As a spren in Kasitor, Cusicesh has to have been influenced by the Iriali.

So how does Cusicesh fit into Iriali culture??? As the One!*       (*Possibly as the One! ...it makes sense to me, here's why...)

So the first thing that connects Cusicesh to the One is the display of faces. The One is all the Iriali people, as Ym said to the urchin, "you and I are One". The One is genderless. Cusicesh's display includes many different people, some appear male and some appear female. All of the faces are human. So all different humans, all genders, are being combined into one form. Which is exactly the same as how all of the Iriali are meant to become One on the 7th planet, combining into One form.

One of the major aspects of Cusicesh' demonstration is people feeling drained by it. Axies said it felt like "something had been leeched from him". Maybe Cusicesh is draining away the observers' experiences/investiture, to replicate how One is meant to take all of the Iriali experiences onto itself. (Yes this isn't the 7th planet yet, but Cusicesh isn't literally the One, just people's perceptions of the One. And the  final "gathering" is literally the purpose of the Long Trail/their lives so it makes sense this important aspect would be a part of the One's spren)

Cusicesh is also worshipped by some Iri. This could tentatively be an indication that Cusicesh was connected 'the One' religion at some point in the past. Or that it at least resonated/s with Iriali culture during their time on Roshar. (Like why would the worldhopping Iriali, some of whom were cosmically aware, worship a spren?) Also in terms of their worship, the pedestals are gold, connecting it further to the golden Iriali people. (Also also, Four pedestals/arms that Cusicesh is leaning on, maybe represent four lands so far that the One can draw experiences from...)

To recap, Crusicesh must have been influenced by people because it is a spren. It's location means it has been influenced by the Iriali's perceptions. And from our limited knowledge of Crusicesh, its behaviours seem to fit with the Iriali God, the One. This theory also provides a reason for Brandon to show us Cusicesh, beyond it being the Sibling (which I don't believe), or just being cool. The Iri's perceptions of their god have created Crusicesh or at least influenced it.

Honestly, I have no idea if all of this has already been said, or if there are massive holes I just don't have the knowledge to see. But I thought that this seemed plausible enough, or that this might provide something useful... tear it apart! (Or alternatively, help build and correct this theory!) 

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PS: In order for this theory to be really solid, it would be great to find another spren of a god, for example, a spren that emobidied the Passions. (not a god-spren, like because even though he's a sliver of Honor, the Stormfather isn't believed to represent the Almighty, so I don't think he counts as a precedent.)

(PPS: some baseless propositions/thoughts (if this theory proves true)

• Maybe all the faces are people with Iriali blood who have passed on and are going back into the One???
• Maybe "eastward", the direction Cusicesh is facing, is where the Iriali homeland is, or where they last came from, or where they're going next???? idk.

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Questioner

Speaking of the Stormfather, would the Nightwatcher and the giant water spren be on the same level of spren as the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

...The Nightwatcher, yes. Um... There are, I would say, a level below the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher who are also much-- a much bigger deal than something like one of the sapient spren, and that's what Cusicesh is.

• Cusicesh's "sapience" could come from drawing energy/investiture/cognitive presence from onlookers. The Iri are also probably giving it heaps of cognitive presence/aspect, cos Cusicesh is taking on all their ideas/reverence for their God. 
• Cusicesh's sapience would also allow it to continue spren-ifying the One, if people have stopped heavily associating Crusicesh with the One, because now its view of itself contributes to its identity)

Edited April 28, 2018 by Atxk

[Fatikis he/him]

Interesting idea for sure. Cusicesh does seem like a representation of the religion. 
Sidenote: I hadn't realized before how much the Iriali seem like a scouting party.

[TheHeadHancho]

Well... maybe but maybe not...

OB SPOILER:

Spoiler

It is revealed by Evi that the One is the Nightwatcher when she directs Dalinar to the valley, stating that “you can see the One there.”

The nightwatcher already is a spren so.

this would have to be the spren representation of a religion itself. This would not include the God worshipped, just the religion itself, which feels like a stretch to me.

also you might want to add the [OB] tag because the conversation could shift that way.

edit: other stuff to add

Cusicech is facing away from Iri.

Edited April 27, 2018 by TheHeadHancho
Stuff

[Gasper he/him]

Where do I find the Long Trail or the story this thread is about?

[RShara she/her]

19 minutes ago, Gasper said:

Where do I find the Long Trail or the story this thread is about?

The sources are linked in the thread that the OP referred to

[teknopathetic he/him]

I would love to know if the Nightwatcher was around before Cultivation's arrival, or if Cultivation's worship caused the Nightwatcher to show-up?

Part of me thinks there were 12 splinters of Adonalsium on Roshar to begin with. Odium showed up and unmade 9, while Cultivation and Honor managed to save 3 (or perhaps Odium didn't want some of the other 3). The Night-watcher now seems like Cultivation, but how many Millennia of education did it take for the Night-watcher to become what she is?

The Nightwatcher and Stormfather seem to be learning just in the same way that the Re-Shephir, Sja-anat and Bao-ado-Misham seem to be learning. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by teknopathetic

[Fatikis he/him]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

Part of me thinks there were 12 splinters of Adonalsium on Roshar to begin with.

12 splinters? Is there any reason for that number? 10 is significant to Roshar, and 16 is relevant to the cosmere. 12 seems a very odd number.

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Odium showed up and unmade 9, while Cultivation and Honor managed to save 3 (or perhaps Odium didn't want some of the other 3). The Night-watcher now seems like Cultivation, but how many Millennia of education did it take for the Night-watcher to become what she is?

The Nightwatcher and Stormfather seem to be learning just in the same way that the Re-Shephir, Sja-anat and Bao-ado-Misham seem to be learning. 

The unmade seem to more parallel the Heralds in my opinion. One per order excluding Bondsmiths.

I would say The Night Watcher and The Stormfather seem more like the children of Honor and Cultivation. In support of that they refer to The Sibling. I take that as a literal and not figurative sibling. Given highspren didn't exist before Honor and Cultivation I doubt their major sprens did. It is possible the spren existed in a rough state only gaining sentience from Honor and Cultivation.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Fatikis

[Atxk]

11 hours ago, TheHeadHancho said:

Well... maybe but maybe not...

OB SPOILER:

  Reveal hidden contents

It is revealed by Evi that the One is the Nightwatcher when she directs Dalinar to the valley, stating that “you can see the One there.”

The nightwatcher already is a spren so.

this would have to be the spren representation of a religion itself. This would not include the God worshipped, just the religion itself, which feels like a stretch to me.

Huh, I totally missed this, however when I read the quote:

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If you wish to meet the One in person, you must travel to the valley," she said. "There you can speak to the One or his avatar, and be granted-" (ch 36)

 

Which would mean that people don't believe the Nightwatcher is the One, they believe that Cultivation is the One. (so not a spren)

I'd also like to point out the male pronouns Evi uses. In terms of Iri doctorine, the One is neither male nor female, so Evi could just be making a mistake, or this could be an indication that she is unreliable.

However yeah, these quotes are way more concrete than mine

[anarchitect]

Maybe Cultivation is The One. The aspect of Cultivation fits with the idea of a god that wishes to experience life on on different lands, to cultivate experience.

[Fatikis he/him]

1 hour ago, anarchitect said:

Maybe Cultivation is The One. The aspect of Cultivation fits with the idea of a god that wishes to experience life on on different lands, to cultivate experience.

This doesn't seem to fit with Roshar being the 4th planet they've visited. Others directly refer to Cultivation so another group of people calling her The One would be a bit odd. It is very likely that they no longer recall the details of their God. Some may have even mistaken Cultivation or the Night Mother for it. Not much different than Vorin often speak of the Night Mother as if it is of Odium.

Given they lack religious texts, and the don't even treat it as a religion the stories likely have been corrupted over time. The One just really doesn't fit with Cultivation. I would guess this is Autonomy or a new shard altogether.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Fatikis

[TheHeadHancho]

@Fatikis Why not? I think the idea of Cultivation (and by extension the Nightwatcher) make perfect sense because, over millennium, they gained the reputation as just giving people what they want and what they deserve just because it offers growth, or as some may put it, experience. Furthermore, they are stated to not even be good or bad (I’m struggling to find the exact quote, maybe someone can help me out) and that leads many, probably including the Iriali, to thing they just want change, which as Cultivation’s intent plainly states, they do. I think the things about avatars might have made you think Autonomy but it’s probably just coincidence. There is just much more evidence supporting The One being Cultivation, at least on Roshar.

[Fatikis he/him]

33 minutes ago, TheHeadHancho said:

@Fatikis Why not? I think the idea of Cultivation (and by extension the Nightwatcher) make perfect sense because, over millennium, they gained the reputation as just giving people what they want and what they deserve just because it offers growth, or as some may put it, experience. 

Giving people a curse and a boon is not "experience". By your definition of experience granting literally anything would count as such and makes any shard an equal likely candidate. Experience does not equal growth. Their god isn't interested in cultivating the best people. The goal is to experience all things. A very different intent than Cultivation.

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Furthermore, they are stated to not even be good or bad (I’m struggling to find the exact quote, maybe someone can help me out) and that leads many, probably including the Iriali, to thing they just want change, which as Cultivation’s intent plainly states, they do.

I'm not saying they are good and bad. I am saying that wanting to experience everything doesn't fit with Cultivation. There is no reference to wanting change by the Iriali the religion. Their goal is to experience everything. They don't seem to have a real goal in mind. They also are not from Roshar. Roshar is the 4th planet they have visted. This would mean that Cultivation heavily invested elsewhere before Roshar, and then also directed the Iriali to Roshar to experience life on a planet that she was already occupying in full force.

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I think the things about avatars might have made you think Autonomy but it’s probably just coincidence. There is just much more evidence supporting The One being Cultivation, at least on Roshar.

The only evidence for The One being Cultivation is that they mention to go to the Valley.

We most likely we are dealing with an unnamed shard. Sanderson has a number of shards to reveal, and I would guess the Iriali are seeds to one of these shards.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Fatikis

[Yata he/him]

Honestly I read It as:

"The One is Adonalsium or a belief based on Adonalsium and its Shattering (there is a WoB about) and the Irali see the Shards as the One's Avatars or the One itself"

[Fatikis he/him]

4 hours ago, Yata said:

Honestly I read It as:

"The One is Adonalsium or a belief based on Adonalsium and its Shattering (there is a WoB about) and the Irali see the Shards as the One's Avatars or the One itself"

That is very possible. It would make sense. If this is true I would wonder if Irali are just like any other sentient race in the cosmere or if their creation was more specific. 

[Yata he/him]

14 hours ago, Fatikis said:

That is very possible. It would make sense. If this is true I would wonder if Irali are just like any other sentient race in the cosmere or if their creation was more specific. 

There was a theory about the Irali that was conceptual awesome but without any kind of source.

The Irali are people crafted by the Shard Who want only to survive. The Shard crafted them as repository for itself. The Irali together will be' the Shard and in the way the Shard hides from Odium.

 

Of course no amount of Irali will be' enough to contains a decent amount of the Shard's Power (much more as the Irali doesn't seem more Invested than usual)...but at conceptual level It was very cool

[Thunderclast]

On 4/27/2018 at 3:45 PM, Fatikis said:

I would say The Night Watcher and The Stormfather seem more like the children of Honor and Cultivation. In support of that they refer to The Sibling. I take that as a literal and not figurative sibling. Given highspren didn't exist before Honor and Cultivation I doubt their major sprens did. It is possible the spren existed in a rough state only gaining sentience from Honor and Cultivation.

[OB]

I believe that the Sibling may have once been one of the Unmade, as Odium is the only other shard aside from Cultivation and Honor/Unity that we know of.

I also believe that the Sibling granted a tenth order of Voidbinding, but eventually through a Bondsmith-esque bond it was able to see that it was on the wrong side.

This lead to him joining the Radiants, inhabiting Urithiru in the same sense as Re-Shephir did.

[RShara she/her]

1 hour ago, Thunderclast said:

[OB]

I believe that the Sibling may have once been one of the Unmade, as Odium is the only other shard aside from Cultivation and Honor/Unity that we know of.

I also believe that the Sibling granted a tenth order of Voidbinding, but eventually through a Bondsmith-esque bond it was able to see that it was on the wrong side.

This lead to him joining the Radiants, inhabiting Urithiru in the same sense as Re-Shephir did.

Brandon's confirmed that there have only been 9 Unmade. Or, at least, that there have not been 10

Edited May 8, 2018 by RShara

[teknopathetic he/him]

7 minutes ago, RShara said:

Brandon's confirmed that there have only been 9 Unmade. Or, at least, that there have not been 10

I think that the Sibling was the only Made not turned into an Unmade. The name "Sibling" begs itself to be a red-herring.

Edited May 8, 2018 by teknopathetic