The reversed/complementary meaning of the First Ideal

[cubelith]

I believe I'm the first one to notice this, if not, please link me to the apprioprite thread.

I recently noticed that the First Ideal can easily be reversed to uncover a second, complementary meaning. We basically reverse both the words and their order, so from life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination we get destination after journey, weakness after strength, death after life. While this sound a little bit awkward in English, it also carries deep meaning, at least to me.

Destination after journey
After our journey we always reach a destination, or at least strive to do so. Our actions have a purpose. Wandering aimlessly is pointless. We choose our general goals with our oaths, but to fullfill them many particular quests need to be done. We should not only talk about our ideals and mission, not only act like we're doing something, but take actions that will lead to a measurable gain.
For example, a Windrunner tasked with watching over the town should not only patrol the streets (which improves safety, of course, but rather temporarily), but also do something that is far less enjoyable and convenient, yet probably more important, such as spending many nights lying in a wet den to spy on a dangerous gang and finally destroy it.

We also don't stop midway - we are persistent. If only possible, we continue the journey until we reach the destination. Things need not only to be started, but also finished. Young zeal is appealing, but even the most loved activity will tire us and require a measure of perseverance. Thus, it is hard not to stop after some time, yet we must not.
For example, in times of sorrow, a Lightweaver decides to paint a town hall for the enjoyment of all people. She takes to it with with eagerness, but halfway through the job becomes tedious. She wishes to go play at a theater, which would also make some citizens happy. Yet she should finish the painting, while taking at most short breaks when she is really more needed somewhere else. The painting will, after all, lighten people's moods for centuries, while an unfinished one could even make them sadder.

[spoiler]
The most important step a man can take. It's not the first one, is it? It's the next one. Always the next step, Dalinar.
[/spoiler]

Weakness after strength
After showing our strength, we have the right to rest. Even the sturdiest shield has to be oiled, lest it rusts and breaks. We must not push ourselves too hard, even if resting seems lazy. Of course that does not allow true laziness, but we're only humans. It's better to take a break from battle than to fall because of fatigue. This also applies to mental fatigue. We don't play tough after facing death or other horrors. It is right to seek support if you need it. We never try to seem stronger than we really are - that always ends up worse. We are not ashamed to seek help.

We also understand that others are humans, too. While it is right to encourage and expect others to do their best, we remember that they also have the right to both rest and fail. Don't swing a sword too hard, lest it breaks. 

Death after life
This part was the hardest to interpret. First of all, it is basically memento mori. We need to remember we are not immortal, no matter how grand are our powers. No other earthly thing is eternal, either.

Due to that, we need to think in the long term. Back to that Windrunner protecting a town - even if it's his lifelong duty, he has to realise that one day he will be gone. So he should not only protect the town as best as he can, he should at least make sure to find a replacement. And it would be best if he estabilished an efficient guard that would keep the town safe for generations. The same goes for the Lightweaver's painting.

This also means that since we have to die one day, we should sacrifice our life for our ideals if it is needed (however we must do it wisely - see the first part).

Also we shouldn't attach ourselves to impemanent things too much, as they will eventually turn to dust, while our ideals may guide the whole humanity to a better path.

 

What do you think about this interpretation?

[Kidpen he/him]

2 minutes ago, cubelith said:

Death after life
This part was the hardest to interpret. First of all, it is basically memento mori. We need to remember we are not immortal, no matter how grand are our powers. No other earthly thing is eternal, either.

Due to that, we need to think in the long term. Back to that Windrunner protecting a town - even if it's his lifelong duty, he has to realise that one day he will be gone. So he should not only protect the town as best as he can, he should at least make sure to find a replacement. And it would be best if he estabilished an efficient guard that would keep the town safe for generations. The same goes for the Lightweaver's painting.

This also means that since we have to die one day, we should sacrifice our life for our ideals if it is needed (however we must do it wisely - see the first part).

Also we shouldn't attach ourselves to impemanent things too much, as they will eventually turn to dust, while our ideals may guide the whole humanity to a better path.

 

What do you think about this interpretation?

Memento Mori. That has always felt very profound for me.

[cubelith]

And here it is, in one of the best books ever created. I wonder if my interpretation was intended, even in the tiniest bit

[BitBitio he/him]

On 4/24/2018 at 10:29 AM, cubelith said:

I believe I'm the first one to notice this, if not, please link me to the apprioprite thread.

I recently noticed that the First Ideal can easily be reversed to uncover a second, complementary meaning. We basically reverse both the words and their order, so from life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination we get destination after journey, weakness after strength, death after life. While this sound a little bit awkward in English, it also carries deep meaning, at least to me.

Destination after journey
After our journey we always reach a destination, or at least strive to do so. Our actions have a purpose. Wandering aimlessly is pointless. We choose our general goals with our oaths, but to fullfill them many particular quests need to be done. We should not only talk about our ideals and mission, not only act like we're doing something, but take actions that will lead to a measurable gain.
For example, a Windrunner tasked with watching over the town should not only patrol the streets (which improves safety, of course, but rather temporarily), but also do something that is far less enjoyable and convenient, yet probably more important, such as spending many nights lying in a wet den to spy on a dangerous gang and finally destroy it.

We also don't stop midway - we are persistent. If only possible, we continue the journey until we reach the destination. Things need not only to be started, but also finished. Young zeal is appealing, but even the most loved activity will tire us and require a measure of perseverance. Thus, it is hard not to stop after some time, yet we must not.
For example, in times of sorrow, a Lightweaver decides to paint a town hall for the enjoyment of all people. She takes to it with with eagerness, but halfway through the job becomes tedious. She wishes to go play at a theater, which would also make some citizens happy. Yet she should finish the painting, while taking at most short breaks when she is really more needed somewhere else. The painting will, after all, lighten people's moods for centuries, while an unfinished one could even make them sadder.

[spoiler]
The most important step a man can take. It's not the first one, is it? It's the next one. Always the next step, Dalinar.
[/spoiler]

Weakness after strength
After showing our strength, we have the right to rest. Even the sturdiest shield has to be oiled, lest it rusts and breaks. We must not push ourselves too hard, even if resting seems lazy. Of course that does not allow true laziness, but we're only humans. It's better to take a break from battle than to fall because of fatigue. This also applies to mental fatigue. We don't play tough after facing death or other horrors. It is right to seek support if you need it. We never try to seem stronger than we really are - that always ends up worse. We are not ashamed to seek help.

We also understand that others are humans, too. While it is right to encourage and expect others to do their best, we remember that they also have the right to both rest and fail. Don't swing a sword too hard, lest it breaks. 

Death after life
This part was the hardest to interpret. First of all, it is basically memento mori. We need to remember we are not immortal, no matter how grand are our powers. No other earthly thing is eternal, either.

Due to that, we need to think in the long term. Back to that Windrunner protecting a town - even if it's his lifelong duty, he has to realise that one day he will be gone. So he should not only protect the town as best as he can, he should at least make sure to find a replacement. And it would be best if he estabilished an efficient guard that would keep the town safe for generations. The same goes for the Lightweaver's painting.

This also means that since we have to die one day, we should sacrifice our life for our ideals if it is needed (however we must do it wisely - see the first part).

Also we shouldn't attach ourselves to impemanent things too much, as they will eventually turn to dust, while our ideals may guide the whole humanity to a better path.

 

What do you think about this interpretation?

That..... that's beautiful!

*wipes tear from eye*

Here, have an upvote!

[Ink he/him]

Very, very poetic my good man. You think like a true linguistic (its meant as a compliment)

[+ElephantEarwax he/him]

This is beautiful. I have always loved the Ideals. But the first, and [OB] have always hit me hard.

Spoiler

Dalinar's third

 

[cubelith]

Thank you all! I wonder though, if anybody will disagree or add something, as I don't believe I grasped everything at the first try. Even though I am actually a poet and have taken part in the Linguistics Olympiad, so Quell's compliment was suprisingly accurate.

For me the First Ideal has become something of a motto when I need motivation or perseverance.

But back to the topic: if any passing poet/linguist/bypasser decides to add something or challenge my view, I'd be very pleased!

Edited April 26, 2018 by cubelith

[LarkinTyvell]

I think that is an excellent way to look at the complementary/reversed meaning of the ideals. There are characters in the book that seem to take the phrase in the most literal of senses, "I must go on a journey before I reach my destination," "I am strong before I become weak," "I live before I die." But, I think even the meaning goes deeper than that, and some of the new Knights Radiant imply that there's more to it too. Maybe others see it similar to this too...

Journey Before Destination

With some of the additional ideals/oaths we've seen come out since the first ideal of the Knights Radiant, it seems to me that it's about the present, and not the future, almost a Sandersonian way of saying "stop and smell the roses." If you are always focused on getting to your destination, then there is going to be less enjoyment in things for you during the journey. There are also times where you may think you know your destination, but if you focus on the journey, you may find your feet treading a different path and ending up at just as good of, if not better, a destination than the one you had intended.

Much like how we make plans in our day to day lives that sometimes end up being upended by one life event or another. We can whine and wail and consider this to be our destination and wallow in our own doubt and pity, or we can consider this a way station on our journey to something new.

Strength Before Weakness

Not to steal your shield analogy here, but the strong should be placed before the weak in the same way that a shield is placed before oneself to protect weaknesses. Similar to the Old Code from Dragonheart and "his might upholds the weak" line. The Knights Radiant are there to protect the world from the desolations. It seems that there are some orders that are more obviously intended for this purpose, take the additional Windrunner Ideals for example.

Life Before Death

Sure with the reversed/complementary meaning you get a memento mori type of feel to it, but with the original phrasing the focus feels like it is more on life. Sure, all men must die, but Life needs to come before it. If we consider life to be more than just our organs functioning to sustain our presence on the planet to do things, and expand it to our goals, hopes, and dreams, then everyone lives life in vastly different ways. I feel it also ties back to the journey part of the ideal as well, for what is life but the longest journey we embark on? What is death, but the ultimate destination? There aren't that many people who are focused on and seek their death, most of those who do are usually heavily damaged in one aspect or another.

There are also different forms of death, to quote Knights of the Old Republic II "Apathy is death." So, it is possible to die without the physical body dying. When taking on this ideal, the Knight Radian essentially is saying that they will choose the better path, the more difficult path, in which they can truly live before they die.

I think we see this as a huge struggle for Kal. He ends up with such huge traumatic situations happen early in his life that he does end up essentially broken and is not concerned with his life continuing. He seems to be healing and making progress, but I still think this is the most difficult part of the first ideal for him, and that it is probably part of why his character arc in OB ended the way they did for him, and I'll leave it at that to prevent being spoilery. Syl also seems to grasp that this is the case and has made it her personal mission to make sure that Kal remembers that life is important, as well focusing way too much on her perception that he needs to get laid.

Sorry to have hijacked the thread a little, the reversed/complementary lines and reasoning you have were excellent and I just couldn't help but share how I felt about the ideal as it stands, which seemed to complement (pun intended) the ideas you've shown as well.

[cubelith]

Your interpretation is clearly correct, however a bit obvious. It's the primary one, because it comes from the original wording - I tried to think about something hidden, but that also makes it secondary. So, for example, even if we must remember about death, life should always be our primary focus

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I think that some Orders would look to interpret that First Oath in the way the OP lays it out while others would interpret them in the traditional way. While reading my mind strayed to Jasnah and how she would view the Oaths in comparison to how Kaladin would.  So, knowing that Orders interpret Oaths differently, which Orders do you think are most likely to interpret those oaths in the reverse complementary way and which would see them as straightforward?

[cubelith]

Well, as far as I know we only know something about a half of them, but that's actually quite a lot. I'll number the "suboaths" by the reverse order - the first one is destination after journey. I guess I might the first one to notice the reversed meaning, so it may not be very prevalent. Nevertheless, it's basically the same Ideal, so I guess I'll find a few examples. Anyway, this is what I think:

Windrunners:
1. I think it would be more of the original meaning, as they are constantly protecting and leading, so they don't really have time to think in the long term. Of course they do plan, but their goal is usually the general "keep everyone safe". That's definitely true about Kaladin.
2. Kaladin definitely doesn't let himself be weak, not even for a second, so he clearly holds onto the original meaning. He seems compassionate for others' weakness, though, so it may be that this order strives to be always strong to let others be weak.
3. Pretty much the same as 1., Windrunners don't seem to plan too much.

Skybreakers:
1. It's definitely journey before destination - everything must be done according to some law, which overshadows the goal. Szeth did not always stick to this, but the Order's interpretation is clear.
2. I don't remember much clues here, but Nale didn't seem to allow weakness.
3. Not many clues either, but Szeth, personally, kinda wanted to die for most of the time. They'd definitely sacrifice themselves for their ideas.

Dustbringers:
We can't really say anything here, unless somebody remembers some specific sentence.

Edgedancers:
1. Lift definitely didn't have some very particular destination. Also the whole Order seems to be a bit similar to Windrunners, in that it constantly helps those in need. So I guess it would be the original meaning here.
2. I believe this order would appreciate the reversed meaning, since, especially in the case of Lift, they often help the weakest. She definitely allowed herself to fail sometimes and I think the whole order would be more or less like this.
3.  Lift certainly didn't think about death, and I guess that just as in 1., it is similar to the Windrunners. Edgedancers might be hovewer a bit more careful not to die too early, but this part connects both versions.

Truthwatchers:
1. In the case of Renarin, it would be both, as he tried to do everything right all the time, but could also forsee some destinations. I don't really remember much about the whole Order, though.
2. Renarin didn't like it, but had to accept his weakness. The Stump, hovewer, does not seem to tolerate any sign of it, so it's too hard to say.
3. Renarin was ready to accept death when he thought it had come, so that looks much like the reversed meaning. Generally this order seems like it would accept it with dignity.

Lightweavers:
1. Shallan usually went to great lengths to achieve her goal, so it definitely looks like the reversed one. That would also fit the Cryptics as a whole - it's the reversed meaning so much, that it seems to overshadow the primary one.
2. As far as I remember, Shallan preferred the primary meaning, easily wearing a facade of strength if needed. This Orders is made up of artists, so I believe they could understand failure.
3. Art is usually eternal, which would suggest remembering that we are not, thus sticking to the reversed meaning.

Elsecallers:
1. I'm not sure here, Jasnah seemed to be a bit more focused on the goals though. 
2. Jasnah didn't really accept weakness (however she was, of coure, reasonable), so it would be more like the original one.
3. Hard to say here too, but it feels like the primary meaning as well.

Willshapers:
I know too little to say much about them.

Stonewards:
We know nothing.

Bondsmiths:
1. They definitely must be focused on the goals, as they should unite, and, at least in case of Dalinar, lead a lot of people. But to be a good example for the people, they must make sure their journey is right too. So I think they combine both meanings.
2. This is clearly written in the quote I gave in the first post, as well as in their Third Ideal: "I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.". It is a clear mixture of both meanings - failure is a trait of mankind, but we must strive to be strong.
3. I think here it would be life before death, as they cannot die, or actually even rest too much. Also at least one of them does never have a Shardblade (which does not in any way imply a lack of ourage, though).

Alrigth, I think it would be evereone. If somebody could add/correct something, I would be very grateful.

[animalia]

There is an epigraph from The Way Of Kings (one of the death rattles that you might find interesting) This is the epigraph from chapter 60 specifically if you want to look it up yourself.

 

“The death is my life, the strength becomes my weakness, the journey has ended.”

 

So since you mentioned a possible reverse meaning. And here seems to be one (possibly) right in the text. If in epigraph Death Rattle form.  Make of it what you will.

Edited June 28, 2018 by animalia

[animalia]

Whoever gave me the rep thanks. Also, I was kinda hoping there was enough there to promote discussion. I understand if not given the context of that statement, a death rattle in an epigraph. But still.

[Calderis he/him]

As far as Elsecallers go, the reversed journey before destination fits. 

Quote

AndrewHB

I wondered if I could follow up to that Machiavelli question. Would Elsecallers be a-- one of those other, uh-- one of those...

Brandon Sanderson

So, yeah. Elsecallers are fairly compatible. Like, Elsecallers feel like the journey is... the journey is the entire species, right? And that the journey is the destination. *inaudible*

Footnote: Referenced question was asked in the General Q&A.
source

They can accommodate a machiavellian. 

Suppose I should throw in the Skybreaker one for that while I'm at it. It's what the first wob is "following up" 

Quote

AndrewHB (paraphrased)

Is Niccolò Machiavelli's political theory--the ends justify the means--incompatible with the Knights Radiant's First Oath?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. Although many of the Orders of Knights Radiant would find Machiavelli's theory, that the ends justify the means, incompatible with additional oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. (Brandon said that the Skybreakers are where a Machiavellian could find a home.)

Footnote: A follow up question was asked in the signing line.
source

 

[cubelith]

17 hours ago, animalia said:

“The death is my life, the strength becomes my weakness, the journey has ended.”

This Rattle, while fitting, is just a reflection on death, for some reason based on the First Ideal. The actual First Ideal, even in the reversed form, is far from that - it's a way to live our lives. Thus I can't really make a strong connection to the topic. It's great that you found it, though, I wasn't aware it was there.

[animalia]

3 hours ago, cubelith said:

This Rattle, while fitting, is just a reflection on death, for some reason based on the First Ideal. The actual First Ideal, even in the reversed form, is far from that - it's a way to live our lives. Thus I can't really make a strong connection to the topic. It's great that you found it, though, I wasn't aware it was there.

Thanks. I can appreciate that. For what’s it’s worth I think you may be on to something, based on intext hints. I won’t give any spoilers, but I will say this. Semetry has a kind of value in-world. Names are often JUST shigh of being symmetrical as it’s considered blasphemous to be exactly so, and there’s a type of five-part religious poem called a ketek that also has a symmetrical form. You can find SOME echo of the ketek’s form in the books structure if you look carefully enough. So I would NOT be at all surprised if the first ideal MIGHT be meant to be looked at both ways. And I would even less surprised about the vows as a whole. 

(Or at least that’s what Brandon Sanderson is setting up.) 

Because while the first ideal is three part instead of five part there IS some symmetry there. MORE IMPORTANTLY each order of the Knights Radiant has FIVE VOWS. Given the Ketek has FIVE PARTS and is SYMMETRICAL I doubt this is a coincidence.

Edited June 29, 2018 by animalia

[cubelith]

@animalia And also each book has five parts, for example. Btw the fact that Brandon decided to make symmetry holy (I'm pretty sure it's not a spoiler) is really cool, I personally love symmetry - and that may be why I noticed the secondary meaning. Anyway, let's stick to the topic and see if anyone can provide some more insight

[animalia]

@cubelithlet me know when you get through Oathbringer. We can have FUN discussions then.