Niteshado he/him Posted April 15, 2018 Posted April 15, 2018 I know i am a little behind on finishing it, due to schedule, but holy crap was that awesome. So, few things i have questions on. 1. I know brandon made a bunch of characters with defects, like renarian being on the spectrum. What is shallans defect? looks like an Identity Crisis. 2. Heralds can feel each other. Do we know why? or how they are linked? It seems like their souls are extremely connected. 3. Odium, when talking to Dalinar when he combines the 3 realms, states "we killed you. WE KILLED YOU." I am jumping to assume hes speaking of honor, due to Dalinar opening the perpendicularity, but...who is "we"? He stated before "I killed honor and i will do the same to cultivation." so was he using the royal "we" or did he let something slip?
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted April 15, 2018 Posted April 15, 2018 1. Shallan probably has some sort of identity crisis, but it is boosted with magic. I read childrens psychology in school kinda recently, and some of the stuff Shallan does (such as pretending that certain things never happened) reminds me of that. So I'd guess her behavior also has something to do with her family situation. 2. I have no idea, but realmatic theory isn't really my area of expertise. 3. There are loads of different thoughts about this one. It almost sounds like Odium is referring to Adonalsium, but I doubt Dalinar has reformed it.
IllNsickly he/him Posted April 15, 2018 Posted April 15, 2018 There are lots of WoB’s about how Shallan might be diagnosed. I think ‘Disassociative Identity Disorder’ is the one that sticks out in my memory. Like Toaster said, I dunno much Realmatic Theory. But I assume it is a result of the Oathpact somehow. My interpretation of Odium’s ‘NO, We killed you’... Evi speaks to Dalinar, ‘I forgive you’. Hearing that from her gives him the peace that he was looking for when he went to the Nightwatcher. Really bad for Odium and he knows it. I think Odium was referring to himself and Dalinar burning the Rift and causing Evi’s death.
Niteshado he/him Posted April 15, 2018 Author Posted April 15, 2018 29 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said: 3. There are loads of different thoughts about this one. It almost sounds like Odium is referring to Adonalsium, but I doubt Dalinar has reformed it. I dont see that.. Dalinar opened Honors Perpendicularity. The spren, of honor, saw it as his perpendicularity. I cant see Odium referring to Adonalsium, because other shards are on other worlds, some still with holders. so that theory to me doesnt make sense. To me, Dalinar somehow utilized honors shard or power. This scared Odium. 2
The One Who Connects he/him Posted April 15, 2018 Posted April 15, 2018 (edited) 1. From what I've heard about it, it's either an identity crisis or some form of psychosis/breakdown. 2. Common theory is that they are linked in some way by the Oathpact(as yet more evidence that they haven't escaped it). Their situation reminds me of Star Wars: The Old Republic Spoilers Spoiler The Dread Masters. They were a group of 6 powerful Sith who somehow became linked in a similar way. After Styrak was killed, the other 5 started mentally deteriorating. "Meanwhile, we have tasted death. On Darvannis, the Empire slew Lord Styrak and ripped him from our union. From our wound bleeds our memories; our names; our ambitions. We tasted oblivion, and it drowns us. […] Once, we desired an empire. Now, with the death of Lord Styrak, we are going mad." Sound familiar? Something happened to screw up that bond(although the Heralds abandoned the Pact voluntarily), and they started a mental downward spiral. This also makes me worried that the Heralds could potentially get worse now that Jezrien has been fully ripped from their union. (Not to mention the whole "unholy nine" thing) 3. We(specific Shards/Individuals), We(Shards in general), We(royal), etc... towards Old Dalinar, Evi, Honor, Adonalsium, etc... there are too many options people are theorizing, and no evidence beyond "We killed you" and "I can/can't see that." Wait till Book 4 for evidence/answers. Edited April 15, 2018 by The One Who Connects 1
JoelyWoely he/him Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 10 hours ago, Niteshado said: 3. Odium, when talking to Dalinar when he combines the 3 realms, states "we killed you. WE KILLED YOU." I am jumping to assume hes speaking of honor, due to Dalinar opening the perpendicularity, but...who is "we"? He stated before "I killed honor and i will do the same to cultivation." so was he using the royal "we" or did he let something slip? There's a million theories floating around about this one right now, mine is that Odium likely had help from another shard to kill Honour, because he couldn't take on both Honour and Cultivation at the same time, probably got help from Autonomy.
RShara she/her Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 42 minutes ago, JoelyWoely said: There's a million theories floating around about this one right now, mine is that Odium likely had help from another shard to kill Honour, because he couldn't take on both Honour and Cultivation at the same time, probably got help from Autonomy. Eh, he had no trouble with Dominion and Devotion. Dominion went out swinging, too.
Snipexe he/him Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 (edited) Isn’t it like canonized somewhere that odium had help from cultivation in killing honor. Also, it could refer to the unmade. I would check Arcanum, but alas cannot right now Edited April 16, 2018 by Snipexe
Wandering Investor Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 1. Shallan has two different issues, the first being the ability to lie to herself/block bad memories. The second is her personality issue and her inability to decide who she is. Then throw in the fact that her abilites as a Lightweaver allow for weird memory manipulation and the ability to make her madeup personalities take a life of their own. Its hard to say what Shallan has, as its multiple things feeding each other. 2. Considering what we know of Connection, the spiritual aspect, it seems likely that the Heralds are connected spiritually through the Oathpact, but this is unconfirmable with current knowledge. 3. That statement is subject to lots of debate, and I'm sure Brandon giggles in delight at how much trouble its giving us. We could refer to Rayse and Odium, Odium and the parsh, Odium and another shard, or anything else. You could refer to Honor, as a separate being from Tanavast or Dalinar, Adon, or something else entirely. 2 hours ago, RShara said: Eh, he had no trouble with Dominion and Devotion. Dominion went out swinging, too. Autonomy may have played a role in Dom and Dev's deaths. I can't find the WoB, but it was indicated that Autonomy was involved, but Brandon didn't say if it was watching or active or something else. 18 minutes ago, Snipexe said: Isn’t it like canonized somewhere that odium had help from cultivation in killing honor. Also, it could refer to the unmade. I would check Arcanum, but alas cannot right now WoB states Cultivation was present at the death of Honor and also close enough to see how he was killed. But Brandon refuses to confirm or deny whether Cultivation was against or with Honor at his end, or even participated.
Snipexe he/him Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 @Wandering Investor Thanks!! I knew there were some theories floating around awhile back, and I must have misremembered them as being confirmed.
RShara she/her Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 25 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said: Autonomy may have played a role in Dom and Dev's deaths. I can't find the WoB, but it was indicated that Autonomy was involved, but Brandon didn't say if it was watching or active or something else. Not that I recall. I know some have speculated about it, but there's never been any indication of it by Brandon.
Khyrindor he/him Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 3 hours ago, RShara said: Eh, he had no trouble with Dominion and Devotion. Dominion went out swinging, too. I would bet money that Odium had a lot of help from Autonomy to kill D&D. Brandon has confirmed that Autonomy "helped", but the questioner left way too much wiggle room so the answer isn't very clear. I'll go find it... HA, got it. Took some digging: Quote Moridin997 (paraphrased) Did Bavadin in any way help Odium splinter Dominion and Devotion? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Uhh... Moridin997 (paraphrased) (sensing an incoming RAFO): In any way... Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Uhh... Yes... Yes, you could say that... source
RShara she/her Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 Yeah that's vague to the point of not meaning anything, though.
ScarletSabre he/him Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 18 hours ago, Niteshado said: I know i am a little behind on finishing it, due to schedule, but holy crap was that awesome. So, few things i have questions on. 1. I know brandon made a bunch of characters with defects, like renarian being on the spectrum. What is shallans defect? looks like an Identity Crisis. 2. Heralds can feel each other. Do we know why? or how they are linked? It seems like their souls are extremely connected. 3. Odium, when talking to Dalinar when he combines the 3 realms, states "we killed you. WE KILLED YOU." I am jumping to assume hes speaking of honor, due to Dalinar opening the perpendicularity, but...who is "we"? He stated before "I killed honor and i will do the same to cultivation." so was he using the royal "we" or did he let something slip? With regards to question 2, the Heralds have been likened to Cognitive Shadows, though not in the same position as a certain other character. When they die their souls are instantly sent back to Braize due to the Oathpact, and when one of them returns, the others can all return, and perhaps do so automatically. Add that to Connection built over centuries, if not milennia, and it seems like it's pretty certain that their souls are linked together.
Wandering Investor Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, RShara said: Yeah that's vague to the point of not meaning anything, though. It is vague, but without any other information regarding how Odium killed Dev and Dom, it can't be dismissed either. Odium is terrified of Harmony. Dev and Dom together would have been equal in power to Harmony, but with a lot more experience, so it would make sense that he brought help. Not the only way, just a possibility. Edit: spelling Edited April 16, 2018 by Wandering Investor
The One Who Connects he/him Posted April 16, 2018 Posted April 16, 2018 18 hours ago, Wandering Investor said: But Brandon refuses to confirm or deny whether Cultivation was against or with Honor at his end, or even participated. Oh no? Quote Seonid If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium? Brandon Sanderson She did.
PewterAGoldF Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 For question 1 I was reading and waiting for a reveal that Shallan might have been doing more than light weaving. Shes regular crazy as well of course, but she is also a soul caster who is summoning stormlight and willing herself to become someone else. I know thats not how soulcasting works, but i thought about how twin born are said to also get some kind of third power that is emergent from their two powers. I also remembered the scene where she drew a person, Elhokar I think, as a more confident figure and showed it to him to profound effect. Possible soulstamping?
Wandering Investor Posted April 17, 2018 Posted April 17, 2018 @The One Who Connects Good point, forgot about that WoB. Still kinda vague on how she helped, but she did help at some point. @PewterAGoldF I think Lightweaver's resonance is their mnemonic ability, aka the mental snapshot she can do.
RShara she/her Posted April 18, 2018 Posted April 18, 2018 Yeah the Lightweaver resonance is their mnemonic abilities.
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted April 18, 2018 Posted April 18, 2018 (edited) On 4/17/2018 at 7:41 AM, PewterAGoldF said: For question 1 I was reading and waiting for a reveal that Shallan might have been doing more than light weaving. Shes regular crazy as well of course, but she is also a soul caster who is summoning stormlight and willing herself to become someone else. My theory is that it's similar to self-awakening (Warbreaker spoilers) Spoiler Like Vasher taught the girl in Warbreaker which was used to make her forget about the kidnapping. No confirmation on it however. Edited April 18, 2018 by Fifth of Daybreak
Wandering Investor Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 The Lightweaver's abilities to create illusions, along with being able to craft strong personalities that don't fade, allows them to lie to themselves very easily.
RShara she/her Posted April 20, 2018 Posted April 20, 2018 On 4/18/2018 at 3:16 PM, Fifth of Daybreak said: My theory is that it's similar to self-awakening (Warbreaker spoilers) Hide contents Like Vasher taught the girl in Warbreaker which was used to make her forget about the kidnapping. No confirmation on it however. It seems to be just what Wandering Investor said--her ability to create illusions just makes it easy to lie to herself. Lightweaving is just Illumination. Quote Wetlander When Shallan does Lightweaving, is that a combination of Illumination and Transformation, or is Lightweaving just of Illumination? Brandon Sanderson Lightweaving is just of Illumination. Lightweaving is a long-established power in the cosmere. Very early books, in fact one of the very first stories I ever wrote, Lightweaving was the magic. (That story is unpublished, written long ago - long before Liar of Partinel) And so, this stems from my own personal affection for illusion and my feeling that it had not been used as well as I wanted it to be used in fantasy fiction. So I consider it only Illumination truly in The Stormlight Archive. source
Yata he/him Posted April 21, 2018 Posted April 21, 2018 The Heralds are linked by the Oathpact and they share the pain through their bond. This helped them to tollerate the torture but It explains also how they feel Jezrien dying
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted April 22, 2018 Posted April 22, 2018 (edited) On 4/20/2018 at 5:11 PM, RShara said: It seems to be just what Wandering Investor said--her ability to create illusions just makes it easy to lie to herself. Lightweaving is just Illumination. Thanks for the reference. I'm not entirely convinced her changing herself (and others) is solely a result of lightweaving, and isn't partially soulcasting, mostly because of this Pain quote from the Lhan interlude, but I realize I was not very specific in what I responding to in my original post, which is my fault. Quote "Do they transform, recasting their souls into something greater, something better?” WoR I-12 Lhan Her use of 'recasting' and 'transform' in this context leads me to believe it's related to soulcasting and Shallan's ability to seemingly change people just by changing how they see themselves. Edited April 22, 2018 by Fifth of Daybreak
Zelly Posted April 22, 2018 Posted April 22, 2018 2) We know the Heralds shared pain in Damnation, but I wonder if they aren't still sharing emotions/pain/etc. Ash feels Jezrien's death/soul slurp. Could it be possible their insanity is linked as well? One herald lost their grip on reality and it trickled to all the rest in differing ways. Was Jezrien's alcohol induced fog leaving the other heralds slightly more confused all the time? And Ash's OCD transmitted to the others slightly? Everyone living in a combined soup of each other's mentalities. It's like a terrible form of empathy.
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