Confused Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 This has been discussed a lot. Here’s my speculation (which someone’s probably anticipated): 1. Gemstones attract specific spren if you give the spren something it wants. 2. Pre-Shattering, Rosharan gemhearts attract and hold Adonalsium spren. IMO, this shows Adonalsium’s Investiture can be captured in gemstones. 3. Maybe the Vessels Shattered Adonalsium by each holding a different gemstone to attract a different aspect of Adonalsium? They must have done something more to make this happen, but maybe their aim was to funnel power through the gemstone and into themselves. 4. Hoid may have chosen/been assigned the “First Gem,” the Topaz. I speculate something went wrong in the process. Frost, Edgli and others suggest Hoid voluntarily abandoned his chance at godhood. Regardless, Hoid did not ascend and the gem is now “dead.” 5. What if Hoid had been assigned Fortune? The incomplete ascension changed Hoid’s nature until he’s not homo sapiens anymore. The unattached Fortune Investiture dissipates into the cosmere, but Hoid can still figure out where and when to be. FWIW, I’m not yet convinced Fortune isn’t another Vessel’s Shard, rather than some nebulous “Spiritual attribute.” This speculation hedges my bet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezzik Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 So how do you think fortune interacts with feruchemy, if it is a separate shard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 Brandon has RAFO'd the exact mechanics of the Shattering, whether the participants knew what the Shards would be in advance, whether Hoid turned one down as it was happening or after it had happened and so on, so we don't have much to work with there. However, Brandon did state that Hoid's longevity (which is only one of the weird things about him, admittedly) isn't tied to any particular Shard so assuming that's linked to his being no longer quite human, it seems to nix the idea that he was affected by the Shattering in that way. There's also an open question as to how old Hoid was at the time of the Shattering. Back when he was writing Dragonsteel Prime and planning out Liar he put several centuries of time between those books, so.it's possible that Hoid was something weird before the Shattering. Admittedly just about everything in Liar/Dragonsteel is subject to revision (including apparently most of Hoid's role) so it's entirely possible that's one of the things on the list of things that will be changed. 2 hours ago, Confused said: FWIW, I’m not yet convinced Fortune isn’t another Vessel’s Shard, rather than some nebulous “Spiritual attribute.” This speculation hedges my bet. Brandon has explicitly called Fortune a mechanic and came up with atium to foreshadow it. Plus, since burning atium draws power directly from Ruin it would be rather hard to imagine 'Fortune' as a separate Shard or a proto-Shard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confused Posted April 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2018 (edited) @John203, you asked me this on the Pathways thread, and I put my answer there. To repeat, I believe every Shard can (mostly) do the same things as every other Shard, but only in their own way. We know Roshar’s Shards all have foresight (by whatever name). Cultivation (and probably Odium) are better at it than Honor. Preservation is better at it than Ruin. These abilities belong to each Shard. If there is a Shard Fortune, it would be best at foresight but would hold no monopoly on that power. Feruchemical Fortune IMO comes from Preservation and Ruin, not the hypothetical Shard Fortune. Also, Brandon says, “when they use the word ‘fortune,’ do they mean exactly what the Feruchemical – and the answer is no. But it is a very similar concept.” 6 hours ago, Weltall said: Brandon did state that Hoid's longevity (which is only one of the weird things about him, admittedly) isn't tied to any particular Shard so assuming that's linked to his being no longer quite human, it seems to nix the idea that he was affected by the Shattering in that way. There's also an open question as to how old Hoid was at the time of the Shattering. I don’t think it’s entirely linked to Hoid “being no longer quite human.” I think Relativity’s time dilation plays a major role, since Hoid travels the Cognitive Realm so much. Also, any Investiture prolongs life regardless of source. We don’t know how old Hoid was, but we do know only Frost is older than him: Quote William Anderson Who is the oldest character we know? Brandon Sanderson Frost is almost certainly the oldest by a small amount. After that, Hoid. Source. 6 hours ago, Weltall said: Brandon has explicitly called Fortune a mechanic and came up with atium to foreshadow it. Plus, since burning atium draws power directly from Ruin it would be rather hard to imagine 'Fortune' as a separate Shard or a proto-Shard. First, Brandon RAFOs whether Fortune is a Shard; he doesn’t answer the question. Second, I explain above why Ruin’s power grants foresight. Third, your WoB does not say Fortune is a mechanic: Quote I needed some good foreshadowing for Fortune, for people being able to kinda see the future or versions of the future, for the whole cosmere to work. And, so, I built in atium specifically to do those things. Fortune has significance, or it wouldn’t be capitalized. Brandon could have said, “I needed some foreshadowing for people to see versions of the future,” and leave Fortune out of it. Fortune, then, must be a means of seeing the future. Atium is another means to see the future, as are Aviar in their way. Odium congratulates Taravangian for the Diagram, noting he lacked access to “Fortune or the Spiritual Realm.” Does this mean Fortune is a “mechanic” or some other kind of Spiritual attribute? Maybe. But it could just as easily be a Shard’s name. We don’t know yet. Edited April 9, 2018 by Confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted April 9, 2018 Report Share Posted April 9, 2018 It belatedly occurs to me that you should probably edit the topic title with an Oathbringer spoiler tag, since we're talking about things that happen within it. Quote Feruchemical Fortune IMO comes from Preservation and Ruin, not the hypothetical Shard Fortune. Also, Brandon says, “when they use the word ‘fortune,’ do they mean exactly what the Feruchemical – and the answer is no. But it is a very similar concept.” So you're positing a mechanic that has the exact same name as a hypothetical Shard. That seems, uhhh, confusing. Also, Brandon has told us by implication that Hoid was offered one of the sixteen (one we haven't seen yet) and someone is holding it right now, not some sort of failed Seventeenth Shard. Sixteen Vessels, Sixteen Shards, there isn't really room for Hoid to have held one. 51 minutes ago, Confused said: I don’t think it’s entirely linked to Hoid “being no longer quite human.” I think Relativity’s time dilation plays a major role, since Hoid travels the Cognitive Realm so much. Also, any Investiture prolongs life regardless of source. True on the lifespan thing, though it seems to be more of a 'Investiture keeps you healthier' thing unless the magic system explicitly affects aging. He's said that Radiants don't have unusually long lifespans, though they tend to live a bit longer. Setting hacks aside, the only systems that we so far know to seriously prolong life are BioChroma (especially if you have lots of Breath) and being an Elantrian (no aging but it's described as 'exhausting'). In Hoid's case, he's considerably older than a human should be even after taking time dilation into effect, so I suspect that there's some link between his lifespan and the not quite human' thing. Especially given that he is almost the oldest being around and the only person who's older is a natural immortal. Quote First, Brandon RAFOs whether Fortune is a Shard; he doesn’t answer the question. Second, I explain above why Ruin’s power grants foresight. Third, your WoB does not say Fortune is a mechanic: Fortune has significance, or it wouldn’t be capitalized. Brandon could have said, “I needed some foreshadowing for people to see versions of the future,” and leave Fortune out of it. Fortune, then, must be a means of seeing the future. Atium is another means to see the future, as are Aviar in their way. Odium congratulates Taravangian for the Diagram, noting he lacked access to “Fortune or the Spiritual Realm.” That WoB is a transcript of an audio recording (there's a link to play it on the page) so any capitalization is entirely up to the Arcanist who transcribed it. I will grant you that Odium's either/or with Fortune and the Spiritual Realm muddies the waters a bit but Brandon did describe F-Chromium and Hoid's ability to know where he needs to be as drawing on the same mechanic. Trying to come up with an explanation for how Fortune is really a Shard just creates new questions, like why every Cosmere-aware individual seems to use that name in reference to future-sight. Azure and Riino both do it, along with Odium and then there's the feruchemical usage. It's unnecessary to posit that it's also a Shard when the idea that it's a shared mechanic already explains every single usage of the term. My guess on Odium's line is that Fortune is meant to be an intermediary mechanic through which one can access the Spiritual Realm and see the future without being overwhelmed by it, while looking into the Spiritual more directly is what Kelsier tried doing in Secret History and the experience nearly killed him. Err, again. That would account for Odium distinguishing the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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