Leuthie Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 So old King T asked a boon of the Nightwatcher. As expected, his boon came at a price. In Words of Radiance, we learn that his request was to have the capacity to save the world from the True Desolation . So the Nightwatcher gives him fluctuating IQ. Different every day. A boon and a curse in one. Oh but that wasn't all. His compassion for others was made inversely proportional to his IQ. Understandably, T assumed the increased IQ would give him the ability to save the world. On a particularly smart day, he spent the day in his room writing on walls. Years of scholarly work later, the genius' scribbles became the Diagram. The answer. The world will be saved by his genius work. Come to the end of WoR, Wit states to Jasnah that she should be looking to the hearts of men as her gods. This seems smart to me, seeing as they're fighting against Hate itself. In fact, this seems so smart that I'm convinced the Nightwatcher gave King T a huge heart as his boon, the thing that will save the world. His compassionate days are the ones where he has the capacity to save the world. Too bad the curse was making him smart when he's at his least compassionate. Unless someone already said this and I couldn't find it...any thoughts? 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Storm he/him Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) Actually, the Diagram was the result of only ONE brilliant day. On that day, Mr.T was the more brilliant than ever before. But, I agree with your reasoning. This means that The Diagram ITSELF is inherently flawed. Interesting... Edited March 14, 2014 by Radiant Storm 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numb Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I agree with you as well. It could very well be the key to defeating Odium and stopping the Desolations is humanity and the Parsendi living in harmony instead of what has been happening in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) WoR spoilers (this should really be in the WoR subforum...) Taravangian is a drooling idiot incapable of interacting with the world on his dumb days. Literally, he drools in his room and can't speak. This theory is interesting, but I haven't got the slightest clue why people attribute so much to compassion and think him drooling is his "capacity to save the world". He already had compassion; his hospitals prove this, and on his average days he still cries at the sorrow he's caused. Why would he need more? Is this some sort of hilarious joke by the Nightwatcher implying the best way to save the world is do nothing? That seems incredibly weird. If this series is intended to be about exploring journey before destination (Brandon has implied this) and its opposite, making Taravangian wrong about what he's doing and having the entire Diagram be flawed from its inception or have it be sabotaged is an incredibly poor way to show the opposing view. The books don't refute the position at all in that case. Sort of like the Sword of Truth series, now that I think on it. Knocking down strawmen is a poor way to argue for a view. The best way to explore an issue is to take the best arguments from both sides and battle those out. If Brandon wants to prove that the journey does matter more than the desintation, Taravangian should come close to succeeding or succeed outright, and then show that it wasn't worth it in the end. Edited March 14, 2014 by Moogle 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevalion Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Jasnah is willing to kill to make a point and assassinate those in her families way and Taravangian can slaughter his own people. I agree, if their way leads to victory, it will be a hollow or a Pyrrhic one. This is the Sanderson, not GRRM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 It's not necessarily that the Diagram is wrong. It's simply the fact that the "End justify the means" method is exactly what Odium thrives on, since it discourages giving a crap about others. The Diagram is probably still completely accurate and workable, but a more compassionate and caring Vargo could probably work wonders if his smarter self could set up a situation for him to thrive in. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Stormblessed he/him Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 WoR spoilers (this should really be in the WoR subforum...) Taravangian is a drooling idiot incapable of interacting with the world on his dumb days. Literally, he drools in his room and can't speak. This theory is interesting, but I haven't got the slightest clue why people attribute so much to compassion and think him drooling is his "capacity to save the world". He already had compassion; his hospitals prove this, and on his average days he still cries at the sorrow he's caused. Why would he need more? Is this some sort of hilarious joke by the Nightwatcher implying the best way to save the world is do nothing? That seems incredibly weird. If this series is intended to be about exploring journey before destination (Brandon has implied this) and its opposite, making Taravangian wrong about what he's doing and having the entire Diagram be flawed from its inception or have it be sabotaged is an incredibly poor way to show the opposing view. The books don't refute the position at all in that case. Sort of like the Sword of Truth series, now that I think on it. Knocking down strawmen is a poor way to argue for a view. The best way to explore an issue is to take the best arguments from both sides and battle those out. If Brandon wants to prove that the journey does matter more than the desintation, Taravangian should come close to succeeding or succeed outright, and then show that it wasn't worth it in the end. I think you are right. I think Mr. T and the Diagram will save the world from the True Desolation. However, no one has said that his way is the only way to reach that goal. There can be many paths to an end, some more honorable than others. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbauks he/him Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I think you are right. I think Mr. T and the Diagram will save the world from the True Desolation. However, no one has said that his way is the only way to reach that goal. There can be many paths to an end, some more honorable than others. I doubt Mr T will end up being the one that saves the world. As Moogle has already pointed out, he goes against everything these books are about. He is the antithesis to Dalinar. I can see Dalinar's book being about the struggle between the two to lead humanity safely through the desolation. Dalinar going the journey before destination route and Mr T going the ends justify the means route. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aminar Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I agree. The diagram is flawed. The truth seems to be that the Capacity should come from tempering genius with compassion, but Mr. T has basically cut himself off from that methodology, denying it. The compassion needs to be used to. And it's not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I said basically exactly what OP said in a different post. If you actually pay attention to what is said in the Taravangian Interlude, there are TONS of hints that really-smart-T is not a good guy. I think that the Diagram will work, in that it will save some small remnant of the population from annihilation. But I am 100% convinced that there is some huge catch in it that T & Friends don't realize, and that will become apparent the closer he gets to his goals. It's pretty obvious from a meta point as well - I mean, if the Diagram ends up being the answer, then the Stormlight Archive is really focusing on the wrong people, isn't it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 On the days when he's most compassionate, he doesn't have the mental ability to interact with people. He says that he literally spends those days drooling in a corner and staring at a wall. This really isn't a state that would be particularly helpful to humans, unless doing nothing is helpful On his slightly-less-idiotic-than-a-cremling days, he cries for the things his smarter self is doing. Also doesn't sound very effective in saving the world. I agree that his work for the Diagram is pretty psychopathic, though, and may not result in what he's hoping for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_here Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I think he has encountered the classic ill-considered wish problem. He asked for the capacity to save the world, but what he wanted was for the world to be saved. Those are not exactly the same thing, and he just might find out what the difference is the hard way. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyring Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) Or to put it simpler. When he have the capacity to save the world, he propably doesent care if the world gets destroyed. All the capacity in the world does not matter if he does not use it for the cause he hopes when he got it. And either way, intelligence alone is not enough. No matter how godlike the intellect, with faulty input you will still end up dead wrong. Wich is why genius-T can easily setup the takeover of another realm(Jah keved), but he do not know enough about desolations to make the propability calculations correctly. Edited March 14, 2014 by dyring 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbauks he/him Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Dyring and name_here: The Nightwatcher is said to be fairly straight forward. One boon and one curse. She doesn't twist words. If Mr T asked for the capacity to save the world, that's what he got. Whether it's the Diagram or his Compassion, is up for debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Also, if the Nightwatcher is a part of Cultivation, presumably, she wouldn't want the world to be destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbauks he/him Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Also, if the Nightwatcher is a part of Cultivation, presumably, she wouldn't want the world to be destroyed. True but I doubt Cultivation is as focused on doing the Honourable thing. If it saves the human race, whether it's despicable or not, I doubt she cares all that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_here Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Dyring and name_here: The Nightwatcher is said to be fairly straight forward. One boon and one curse. She doesn't twist words. If Mr T asked for the capacity to save the world, that's what he got. Whether it's the Diagram or his Compassion, is up for debate. I do believe he got what he asked for. But there are two ways his request diverges from what he wants. 1. Capacity merely means he is able to save the world. It does not necessarily mean he will succeed in doing so. 2. Although this is a bit into fuzzy phrasing, both in interpretation and the exact original request, I think the Nightwatcher granted the capacity for Mr T specifically to save the world. So I personally think the Diagram was the boon, but both issues have come back to haunt him. Firstly, the Diagram is off-course because he's failed to complete steps it called for. Secondly, it's a plan where he saves the world, and in order to do so he needs to undermine other people who could potentially save the world. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryshadium she/her Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 1. Capacity merely means he is able to save the world. It does not necessarily mean he will succeed in doing so. I quite agree with this. Mr. T's mistake may be in having asked for the capacity to do something instead of just asking for said something to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllNsickly he/him Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Did he ask for the capacity to save the WORLD or HUMANITY? The distinction is pretty important, i think.. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryshadium she/her Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 “Capacity,” he whispered, turning a page. “Capacity to stop what was coming. The capacity to save humankind.” Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 913). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Side note, the capacity/ability question is brought up by Elkohar later: “How do people know what to do? Why don’t I know what to do? I was born to this office, given the throne by the Almighty himself! Why would he give me the title, but not the capacity? It defies reason. Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 966). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kessler Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) What if T's capacity to save the world is when he's in the middle ground - decently smart, without sociopathy, compassionate, but not to the point of being unable to make hard choices. Before he went to Nightwatcher Mr. T was one of the rare monarchs in the world, who cared about the people and managed their realms capably. And Gavilar trusted him with the big secret - something he didn't tell his children and closest allies. He was far from powerless - and Way of Kings showed a man can raise from depths of despair to achieve greatness, if he doesn't succumb to despair. Perhaps if T trusted his own abilities - as he in his Interlude - don't underestimate average intelligence. If T had the capacity to save the world from the start then Nightwatchers's boon was much like Wizard of Oz giving brains/heart/courage. And then she added the curse of intelligence-compassion inversion, which T mistaken for the boon. Edited March 14, 2014 by Kessler 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbauks he/him Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 What if T's capacity to save the world is when he's in the middle ground - decently smart, without sociopathy, compassionate, but not to the point of being unable to make hard choices. Before he went to Nightwatcher Mr. T was one of the rare monarchs in the world, who cared about the people and managed their realms capably. And Gavilar trusted him with the big secret - something he didn't tell his children and closest allies. He was far from powerless - and Way of Kings showed a man can raise from depths of despair to achieve greatness, if he doesn't succumb to despair. Perhaps if T trusted his own abilities - as he in his Interlude - don't underestimate average intelligence. If T had the capacity to save the world from the start then Nightwatchers's boon was much like Wizard of Oz giving brains/heart/courage. And then she added the curse of intelligence-compassion inversion, which T mistaken for the boon. But then there would be no boon. I agree with name_here. Mr T was given the capacity. Whether he was actually able to follow through with it and do what needed to be done is to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordofsoup Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I thought that the Nightwatcher does not give you what you ask for, but instead gives you what you deserve or whatever She/it feels like giving you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 “Doesn’t work that way,” Av said. “It’s not a game, no matter how the stories try to put it. The Nightwatcher doesn’t trick you or twist your words. You ask a boon. She gives what she feels you deserve, then gives you a curse to go along with it. Sometimes related, sometimes not.” I think the implication is, it doesn't matter how you phrase your request, she'll give you your request, but in her own way, no matter what. Then the curse part may or may not be related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Ninja he/him Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 My personal take on it is that “Capacity to stop what was coming." is fulfilled by the Intelligence. "The capacity to save humankind.” is fulfilled by the Compassion. The curse is that he's never capable of both at the same time, and that they are wildly unpredictable both in occurrence and strength. It's not a trick on Nightwatcher's part, it's just a failure on Taravangian's part to see what is necessary and when. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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