Shadesmar travel

[Zelly]

I know you can walk Shadesmar to other solar systems and the general gist of the distance reduction.

I couldn't find specifics in a WoB so......are all habitable planets with strong presences in Shadesmar connected directly with all others, or do you have to bypass through others?  Like (I'm using random planet examples, I don't know their proximities) I want to walk from Sel to Roshar it's fine because they are "close" galacticly speaking, but from Sel to Scadrial is further and Roshar's inbetween so I end up skimming Roshar's CR.

 

I trying to draw a potential map of how Shadesmar as a whole might look. Well less of a map and more a picture of a 3D model.  Right now it's....a matrix of spheres?   Uninhabited areas become .....uh.... points or areas that are "weak" in distance?  The null distance allows it touch another weak area, like two points connected on a line, except now the line has been removed?

Mmmm distorted spheres might be better.

I hate math

Edited March 23, 2018 by Zellyia

[Yezrien]

Well, the entire map should be a flat plane. Shadesmar is flat because that’s how people perceive reality. Inhabited continents form large lakes, like the Rosharan Shadesmar.

If you started with the star map from Arcanum Unbounded, then replaced each named star system with a shrunken map of that world (with the land drawn as water), I think that would be a good place to start. 

If I understand it correctly, Roshar might be in between Nalthis and Taldain, but it should be possible to walk from Nalthis to Taldain without passing through Roshar. It’s on the way, but you can walk around it.

[leboralli]

Is there a book who explain how distance works in Shadesmar? Because feels like a normal distance for humans, which needs to walk from point A to B, but maybe this is how a human "feel" the distance in Cognitive Realm...

[RShara]

Secret History mostly takes place in the Cognitive Realm.  Beyond that, we get our info from Words of Brandon.  No, you don't perceive your speed as different than regular walking, but each step can take you a few feet or many light years, depending on whether that particular spot is being thought about or occupied or not.

[Weltall]

@leboralli Like RShara says, space in the Cognitive Realm depends on whether or not there is thought taking place in (or thought taking place about) the corresponding Physical location. There's a very long WoB where Brandon goes into a good amount of detail.Spoil-tagged for length, and it's got Secret History spoilers for anyone who hasn't read that yet.

Spoiler

Questioner

So like as far as distance traveled in Shadesmar. 

Brandon Sanderson

Mhm

Questioner

So when Kelsier...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Questioner

...in Shadesmar. He meets the Ire, who are presumably Elantrian.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Like how far did he travel? Is that still within Scadrial's realm of the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that's within-- he has s-- By the time he meets them he has slipped right to the edge of the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and into kind of the darkness between planets. 

Questioner

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

He's close enough that he can get there. But he's kind of suffused with Scadrian Investiture then, to a point that it would be harder--you saw in there--for him to get further. I would say that he's like... He has entered space between planets, but he's not out of the solar system.

Questioner

Okay, so he's <still there> in the Scadrian system, just...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yep.

Questioner

Okay, just edging it there.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, mhm. That's what I'd say if I had to actually point <at> him. I would get really fuzzy though, because it wouldn't be too much longer before he enters another solar system. Like he would pass lightyears in steps as he starts getting further, if that makes any sense.

Questioner

That makes sense, because, I mean, with worldhopping in general it's like... You can only... I mean it's... I don't know how the time dilation works per se, but...

Brandon Sanderson

It's not-- there's not much time dilation. What you've got going on is... Things that people aren't around to think about, things without minds or any sort of life, don't manifest on Shadesmar very much at all. And so the space between planets gets really small, unless there's another planet out there with thinking beings or at least some sort of life on it. Like even lower lifeforms, you'll get something manifesting on Shadesmar. But yeah.

Questioner

Okay. So the Cognitive Realm, in Shadesmar...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Questioner

...in the Cognitive Realm... It's kind of the... Any kind of sentient or cognitive life-- that's what is building Shadesmar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah.

Questioner

So like anything where there's blackness... is like... condensed or--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. Particularly if no one's thinking about it? If people are thinking about it.. like, for instance, an island in the ocean that was scoured of all life and even bacteria would still manifest in Shadesmar on that planet because people are aware of it and things like this. But one on the other side of the planet, that no one ever knew about it, probably wouldn't.

Questioner

So that same island, if people just stopped thinking about it or like stopped being aware it's *inaudible* would it...

Brandon Sanderson

It could slowly vanish, yes. And so-- But that's more of a thought experiment. You're never gonna have a planet that that happens to, you know cause...

Questioner

Right.

Brandon Sanderson

But thought experiment wise, yes, that would eventually kind of get consumed by Shadesmar and vanish. The same thing would happen to a planet that you strip the atmosphere from--all the bacteria and life dies on it--you know, slowly going to vanish. But a moon will still manifest because people are thinking about it. It'll just not-- it won't-- it'll be hoakie, it'll be weird--the moon will be. Like you might find a little patch that represents the moon. Something like that.

Questioner

That's interesting.

Brandon Sanderson

You're not gonna find the full landscape of the moon until people start visiting it. And it's gonna grow on Shadesmar.

source

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Weltall

[Zelly]

On 3/22/2018 at 8:10 PM, Belzedar said:

Well, the entire map should be a flat plane. Shadesmar is flat because that’s how people perceive reality. Inhabited continents form large lakes, like the Rosharan Shadesmar.

My problem with that is, if Shadesmar is flat, how does one ever get off the planet, which is a sphere?  In OB, the traveling they do by ship is essentially the same as travel in the physical realm.  There's no distance distortion, because that doesn't happen until you get to uninhabited areas like the middle of the ocean.  In these areas, "distance" becomes almost nonexistant, which allows a traveler to step across solar systems that are far off. But there's still that stepping off/turning point.

Shadesmar on Roshar could easily be flat, as could individual planets and areas. But Shadesmar as a whole, across the cosmere, seems like it has to have a three dimensional aspect to it.  You wouldn't notice it while walking, it would always seem like it was flat, but in fact was more like traveling something like a mobius strip.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Zellyia

[RShara]

It's like when you project a globe onto a flat surface (aka a flat map).  The edges where no one lives and no one things about bleed into interstellar space and eventually joins up with other planets.

Look at the Roshar map.  The various Expanses are other planets.  I believe the Expanse of Vibrance is Nalthis, for example.

[Khyrindor]

What @RShara said.

Here's the Shadesmar map. Expanse of the Vibrancies is hidden under "Shadesmar".

I would also say that Threnody is on the border of Scadrial and Sel, based on things the Ire say.

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Khyrindor

[Zelly]

1 hour ago, Khyrindor said:

 

 I would also say that Threnody is on the border of Scadrial and Sel, based on things the Ire say.

Glad you mentioned that (and thanks for the map).

If you're correct and this map is correct, then to travel to Threnody from Roshar you'd have to bypass through the Cognitive Realm of another planet like Sel. Which was my original question.

I think I'm just going to have to sit on my ideas until we get more maps of worlds and realms.  Thanks for all the feedback though!

Edited March 24, 2018 by Zellyia

[Zelly]

Delete, doubled posted :x

Edited March 24, 2018 by Zellyia

[Weltall]

19 minutes ago, Zellyia said:

If you're correct and this map is correct, then to travel to Threnody from Roshar you'd have to bypass through the Cognitive Realm of another planet like Sel. Which was my original question.

Well, not necessarily. While space between worlds is heavily compressed, there is still emptiness between worlds so it should be possible to go between any two planets without having to cross the Cognitive zone of any intervening planets. It would be impossible for Silverlight or the Ire's fortress to exist without this 'empty' Cognitive space.

[Khyrindor]

Think of each world's reflection in the cognitive realm as a circle. If you bring a bunch of circles together in a random array, there will be a lot of empty space between. Those empty spaces are space, uninhabited planets, and oceans. You can likely cross this stuff in a matter of days to months depending on your method of travel. And all that empty space is solid ground, which is easier for travel as opposed to the beads/mist/whathaveyou that make up Shardworlds' reflections.

You could start a map, but without knowing all of the other unknown planets, or the locations of Vax and Yolen, or how exactly the space between planets works... Suffice it to say you'd need to update it again soon.

 

[leboralli]

On 23/03/2018 at 5:37 PM, RShara said:

Secret History mostly takes place in the Cognitive Realm.  Beyond that, we get our info from Words of Brandon.  No, you don't perceive your speed as different than regular walking, but each step can take you a few feet or many light years, depending on whether that particular spot is being thought about or occupied or not.

Thank you!