[OB] Kaladin & Jasnah: the case for Political Marriage

[Pathfinder]

54 minutes ago, NoiseSpren said:

Yes. Point is that I don't see her to overcome it easily. Like ot is going to be tough time for her. Whole thing was reaction on @Sedside. The "pragmatic Jasnah".

 

And Jasnah is not person with good mental health.

 

And unstable means for me:

Unable to endure mental pressure in certain situations while others (like everybody else - nearly) would just continue going without bigger problems. More situations ruin you like that - more unstable you are.

Thing is we see Jasnah deal with the pressure of the oncoming desolation. That is a pretty big problem. Bigger than what "like everybody else - nearly" deals with. Same thing with Shallan, Kaladin, Dalinar, Adolin, Lift, Teft, and etc, etc, etc. So I do not think it is in this case applicable to compare them to average people with average everyday problems. Considering their pressures, I think they do wonderfully and admirably. They are human.  

[Sedside she/her]

I agree, that Jasnah is not very stable inside, but she is good in dealing with it in public. And yes, she is pragmatic, when it comes to killing people. She was ready to kill Renarin to protect her family from him and to stop him, if he is working with the enemy. That's exactly what Parshendi did to her father, and Szeth was only a weapon. Who will have problems with Szeth is Kaladin, I guess.

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Sedside said:

Who will have problems with Szeth is Kaladin, I guess.

Hmm, maybe. Yeah, probably.

I see a chance of sympathy though, after all Kaladin knows what it's like to be a slave to cruel masters.

[Sedside she/her]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Hmm, maybe. Yeah, probably.

I see a chance of sympathy though, after all Kaladin knows what it's like to be a slave to cruel masters.

Yeah, and a nice sparring partner, but there will be some tension at first, I think.

[NoiseSpren he/him]

19 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Thing is we see Jasnah deal with the pressure of the oncoming desolation. That is a pretty big problem. Bigger than what "like everybody else - nearly" deals with. Same thing with Shallan, Kaladin, Dalinar, Adolin, Lift, Teft, and etc, etc, etc. So I do not think it is in this case applicable to compare them to average people with average everyday problems. Considering their pressures, I think they do wonderfully and admirably. They are human.  

Ok, I am back. I meant pressure in certain situations. Jasnah is Rock-Iron-Steel-Woman, and Desolation was something she prepared for. I merely say I think she has "areas of mind" (poor, stupid english, cannot express myself) where she can crash like Kal after Elhokars death.

 

Ok, ok, ok. The munching in shadow took me one night.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Chaos

[Pathfinder]

8 hours ago, NoiseSpren said:

Ok, I am back. I meant pressure in certain situations. Jasnah is Rock-Iron-Steel-Woman, and Desolation was something she prepared for. I merely say I think she has "areas of mind" (poor, stupid english, cannot express myself) where she can crash like Kal after Elhokars death.

 

Ok, ok, ok. The munching in shadow took me one night.

Potentially sure, everyone can potentially break under pressure, regardless who you are. I personally do not see Jasnah doing so regarding Szeth, but I can see how you can see that. 

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

On 1/4/2019 at 9:11 AM, Alderant said:

WARNING! INCOMING ALDERANT WALLPOST!

I've made it no secret that I'm totally into the idea of Jasnah and Kaladin. I have been casually since Way of Kings, and Oathbringer only cemented the idea in my head as not only viable, but an excellent opportunity for growth on both characters' parts. Before I get into why, I'm putting a segment in here as to what I look at when I make these kinds of judgments.

On analysis:

  Reveal hidden contents

I put as my "title" on the Shard that I'm a character theorist and analyst. My theories and ideas go far beyond simple "oath compatibility" or whether or not a character or characters are currently compatible. What I look at are four basic ideas for characters (you can call these "Alderant's 4 tenets of character development" I guess):

1) Who is the character as they have been presented in the text? What are their ideals? What are their goals? What are their desires? What are their problems and vices?

2) Where is the character now? Are they a fully actualized character, or are they a character on a path of development? What extremes or slants do they embody?

3) How has the character developed thus far? Where have they come from, where can they go? (Where did they come from, Cotton-Eyed Joe?) What archetypes might they symbolize? How can their flaws become strengths, and vice versa?

4) How do existing world and sociopolitical influences affect this character? Does this character buck against those influences or go along with them?

These four ideas shape much of the analysis on characters that I have. Spoilers for Mistborn 1 in the example below:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Kelsier, from Mistborn 1, for example, is presented as a bit of a madman and a rebel. His goals and desires revolve around freeing the skaa and bringing down the nobility and the Final Empire, and he's borderline sociopathic (Ideas 1 & 4). At the beginning of the story, Kelsier is a fully actualized character--his trauma, losing his wife, his snapping, his subsequent training--almost all of his development occurs before we ever meet him on screen, and over the course of Mistborn 1, he develops very little (idea 2) and as such, he fits the "Mentor" or "Hero" archetypes--characters that usually serve as mentoring roles to the main character and whose removal jump-start the main character's development in critical ways. the only place left for him to go is to either A) go down the path of darkness, or B ), learn to moderate his darker impulses (idea 3).

Contrasting Kelsier with Vin, therefore, becomes an interesting idea, since in taking Mistborn 1 alone, we can see that Vin is presented as  a smart and cunning, yet vulnerable young woman with a long history of abuse. She doesn't really have any goals or ideals beyond simple survival, and she has a severe problem with trusting others. She isn't fully developed at the start--you know, as soon as she comes on screen, that Vin is the MC, the heroine of the story. When Kelsier takes Vin under his wing, she goes on a long development process of learning to trust and to believe that some people aren't going to hurt her just because she exists. She is the stereotypical "chosen one" archetype, the insignificant nobody who becomes one of the most important people in the world by the end of the novel. And her growth is made even more manifest through her interactions with Elend.

 

I'll happily go into these points more at request. This is a very quick, rough overhead of how I look at characters.

Moving on now to Kaladin and Jasnah. First, I'll look at each character individually, then move on to how they could work and grow together.

Kaladin:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Let's start with Kaladin. Kaladin is a soldier, but also a surgeon. He is a man who cares deeply about those around him, a man who--sometimes mistakenly--believes that everyone's lives are his responsibility, and a man who takes loss and failure extremely hard. Some of this is due to his SAD, which affects his ability to look past those failures and forces him to believe that it's his fault that those failures and losses happen, that if only he were better, if only he were faster, stronger, more driven, he could have done something. Kaladin has a strong moral compass. He embodies the ideals of the protector, and his natural charisma and love of those he protects make him a natural leader.

As of OB's conclusion, Kaladin is well on his developmental path--he's largely gotten over his hatred of lighteyes, but he's still hung up on the idea that he has to protect everyone. Nowhere is this more blatant than in his failure to save Elhokar--possibly the worst thing to happen to him since becoming a slave. But it's not just Elhokar we have to look at here--much of his early arc in OB was in showcasing how when Kaladin found people in need, he felt compelled to help them. It demonstrates this with the Singers, the Kholinar wall guard, and through memories of his time as a slave. Even the short scene with Tarah seems to confirm this idea that Kaladin can't stop helping people, that he couldn't leave the army to go with her because of the idea that there might be another Tien out there.

The problem with this, is that when two groups of people he loves and wants to protect begin fighting and killing each other, Kaladin is too morally and psychologically locked to do anything. He can't bring himself to hurt those he loves to protect those he loves and to whom he holds his duty, and so shocking and appalling was this to him that when Moash came on scene, Kaladin was too shell-shocked to react quickly enough, and he was forced to watch Elhokar--a man he'd sworn to protect--die before his eyes. It's not a stretch to imagine that Elhokar's death brought back memories of all his other failures--Tien most especially--and this all gave Kaladin a severe knock to not only his confidence, but to his ability to act, and he was forced to be practically dragged away by Adolin.

I've always said I was glad Shallan didn't choose Kaladin at the end of OB. This is because at the end of OB, Kaladin is so beaten down, so discouraged (and not to mention poor Shallan's state), that their relationship would have been doomed to failure. Nowhere is this more obvious than in his final declaration that "her choice is made":

So the question is, where does Kaladin need to go from here? Almost universally, the answer is that Kaladin needs to learn that sometimes he has to hurt those he cares about in order to protect the people he needs to. Which brings me to the other character in this equation...

Jasnah:

  Reveal hidden contents

Jasnah is a powerhouse of a woman. One of the premiere scholars of her day, she is the figure all eyes are drawn to upon entering the room, capable of facing off against every adversary with her quick wit and vast knowledge and experience. She is smart, capable, confident, but she's also callous and indifferent. She has no compunctions about murdering four men for a moral lesson, assassinating her brother's wife for the sake of her brother's rule, or manipulating those around her if it will better her family. Her own mother said that Jasnah was born an adult in a child's body. However, we also know from first-hand experience through Shallan, that Jasnah does have a caring side, and has her mother's impulsivity. Jasnah, however, is not presented as a fully actualized character--we know very little about her, and that implies we are going to see her grow over time.

Prior to OB, we knew very little about Jasnah beyond what I just said. OB gave us some small new insights into her: and her sparing of Renarin at the end of OB was a significant change of character given what we know, since I, at least, fully expected her to kill Renarin despite her love for the boy. I'm glad she didn't. It gives us a better glimpse into the woman beneath the scholar.

We know from the given text that Jasnah is reserved. A quick curve of the lips--not really a smile, more an acknowledgement of approval--is a huge revelation. Jasnah is quick to temper, especially with those she considers foolish or arrogant, and has very little tolerance for either. We also know that Jasnah appreciates quick wit and banter, but only when tempered and utilized properly. This is a common theme between her and Shallan--Shallan, who often uses her verbal wit to flay and scathe, is repeatedly reprimanded by Jasnah as shortsighted. Jasnah's wit is surgical, subtle, and precise--attacking only those points that she deems vital to the conversation, rather than the person entirely as Wit does, or demeaning her opponent, as Shallan does.

And finally, another crucial point regarding Jasnah is how she is treated. Jasnah is universally placed on a pedestal. The text is heavy with implication that not only does Jasnah hate the idea of being under an abstract authority (such as religion), but that Jasnah is often treated differently from anyone else around her, both because of her position and because of her personality. Dalinar, Navani, Adolin--all of Jasnah's relatives acknowledge that Jasnah gets what Jasnah wants, you don't oppose Jasnah. Even Teravangian seems in Way of Kings to defer to Jasnah. And when Jasnah isn't being placed on a pedestal for worship or reverence, she's being shunned and reviled. You either admire Jasnah as a goddess, or you revile her as a demon. There seems to be no in between with regards to how she is perceived by others. Until this scene:

What is significant about this scene, is that Jasnah has someone confront her on a social level. And rather than getting upset, Jasnah appears to shift and even appreciate the opposition. Almost like she was being intentionally extreme in order to draw the opposition out, and her bluff was called. And with respect to the discussion to follow, what is interesting is that Jasnah and her opponent are coming from opposite extremes in this scene.

Kaladin & Jasnah:

  Reveal hidden contents

So what makes these two such an excellent pairing? Well, it's a wonderful authorial tool I call growth potential.

There is a phrase that says "Opposites attract." But what seems to be more common to me, is that opposites only attract when there is an avenue for those opposites to attract. More often than not, without an avenue those opposites will repel, and repel, and repel. So the big question here is whether or not there actually is an avenue for that attraction to occur, and for this, I really want to rely on textual evidence, more than speculation.

Most of the arguments against Jasnahdin seem to stem from one of three arguments: That there's too much of an age gap, that they're too morally opposite, and that either A) Jasnah's lack of interest in men means that she is either asexual or lesbian, or B ) that Kaladin shouldn't be paired with anyone in the main cast. I'd like to address each of these points.

1) There's too much of an age gap.

Frankly, this argument is asinine. There are older/younger relationships in the real world all the time, from old men marrying young women, to old women hooking up with young men due to sexual drives, to a couple I met when I was nineteen where the wife had a son her husband's age (there was a 21 year gap between). Looking at the pair in question, not only is Jasnah unnaturally beautiful (Shallan has a point of envy about it in chapter 5 of Way of Kings), but Kaladin is unusually mature for his age. To say it's okay for an older man to be with a younger woman (in discrepancies of sometimes 30 years) but that a younger man with an older woman (in a discrepancy of likely less than 15 years), while at the same time saying that Kaladin and Lift should be paired (a discrepancy of 7-9 years), is absurdly misogynistic and sexist. Stop making this argument.

2) Jasnah's lack of interest in men means that she is either asexual or lesbian

I don't understand this point. Lack of interest does not inherently mean that there is a different preference. It just means that Jasnah hasn't had a reason to be interested. And considering how deeply she throws herself into her work, and how she's often socially isolated from those around her, it's not absurd to believe that she's simply never found a man she could consider to be an equal. Of important note here, is that Jasnah is inherently a feminist--she doesn't believe that a woman should be "beholden" to a man. According to Mirriam-Webster, the word beholden means: " being under obligation for a favor or gift". Naturally, Jasnah wouldn't want to be obligated to obeying a man simply because he deigned to favor her with affection. Such an idea runs counter to the very core of her being. Of additional note is her interactions with Amaram--which demonstrate that very point.

Further, I'd wager (and this is speculation) that Jasnah, with her love of authority and control, wouldn't want a man (or woman) who would try to demean her or place themselves above her. She would want someone who not only did she view as an equal, but most importantly would treat her that way as well.

My point is, there isn't any textual evidence Jasnah is asexual or lesbian. The textual evidence, is that she hasn't had a reason to express any interest. Jasnah can still be a strong, independent woman and potentially love a man--one does not have to detract from the other, but I agree wholeheartedly that a man who did that would be an extreme disservice to the character.

3) Kaladin shouldn't be paired with anyone in the main cast

I've seen this one over and over, and it makes no sense. Why? Because he has depression? Because he's broody? Because he's the MC? Because the MC having a love interest that's also an MC is tropy and overdone? These are all terrible arguments. Kaladin is a main character--and he's honestly the character of the lot who really needs someone the most, someone who is dynamic and can help him progress in ways only a main character can. But honestly, this oppositional point is largely subjective, so I'm not going to cover it very deeply.

Now that those points are out of the way, I want to get into the point that the astute reader will notice I skipped: that Kaladin and Jasnah are moral opposites.

Why moral opposition is a breeding ground for development (pun intended)

Kaladin is stuck in a rut. Jasnah is a somewhat amoral figure in a position of power. Left unchecked, these two have the potential to run themselves into the ground. There is a saying I would warn any fans of Jasnah to consider: "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." There is also a quote I'd warn Kaladin fans to consider: "I deserve what I've been given. My unhappiness is my fault."

The benefits of these two in a relationship begin here. Kaladin and Jasnah's moral opposition means that they each pull against the other's morality. Jasnah's callousness gives her the perfect grounds for teaching Kaladin a lesson he's needed to learn since childhood--that losses happen, and that sometimes you have to hurt in order to do what needs to be done. Sometimes you need to set the bone, cauterize the wound, so that healing can occur. Jasnah, with her knowledge of philosophy and abstract morality, could teach Kaladin that not everything is his fault.

Kaladin, on the other hand, with his strong moral compass, is the perfect person to rein Jasnah in. Jasnah, left unchecked, could commit genocide in the pursuit of what is good for her and hers. Kaladin would be the voice of reason, the voice that says, "let's find another way. We don't have to do this."

Social implications

Kaladin is no longer really considered a darkeyes by the public. Jasnah is a queen in a society where leadership is a male thing. All consideration that these two can't work together because of social politics completely ignores the societal revolution that occurred at the end of OB. Jasnah is in a unique position to make an Alethkar that isn't subject to Vorinism's gender laws, to bring to light the very causes she's been championing her entire life. Kaladin, on the other hand, is duty-bound to "Protect the King of Alethkar," which according to the WoB, is what the Alethi consider Jasnah: the "King" of Alethkar.

This is an easy one to see. Kaladin will likely be avoiding Adolin and Shallan for some time--his absence at their wedding is of unique note. What does Kaladin do when he wants to avoid something? He throws himself into his duties. Despite their opposition in the planning council, we know Kaladin takes his job very seriously, and he's not going to make the same mistake with Jasnah he made with Elhokar. He's going to make sure she's guarded. That means they'll probably spend a lot of time together, and though they do oppose each other, I imagine they're both capable of seeing the good in each other as well.

Further, I think the previous analysis on Jasnah's leadership and Kaladin becoming "High King" is misguided. If they end up together, make no mistake--Jasnah will be the ruler. At best, Kaladin will be her equal. More likely, Kaladin will be her general, overseeing the machinations of the kingdom's armies and her safety, rather than ruling in her stead. Kaladin will not be "High King", Jasnah will be "High Queen." And Kaladin, I think, won't have an issue with this. Kaladin takes people on their merits, not on their gender or preference. He will be the tempering voice, the voice of caution and reason, while she will be the determining factor.

But...but the conflicts!

Yes. There will be conflict between them. Jasnah will make calls Kaladin doesn't agree with, and Kaladin will do things for her safety that Jasnah finds demeaning or belittling. A good bodyguard cares about their charge's protection first, reputation and opinion second. Conversely, a good ruler does what must be done, even if it means sending friends to their deaths in battle. But the important thing to note here is that those things do not have to be mutually exclusive. They aren't disproving points, but areas where growth can occur. Kaladin and Jasnah stand only to gain from their conflicts.

But what about Gavinor?

What about him, really? He's a child. At best, they'll bond over mutual care about him, at worst, he'll be relegated to the background until the back five if he comes to the fore at all. Gavinor was Kaladin's way of making amends to the Kholins for letting Elhokar die. It's a mark in favor, but I really don't think Gavinor is really an important part of the discussion beyond the social implications. Jasnah won't be adopting him, of that I'm fairly certain.

The juicy bits

Those who don't want to consider the idea of Shalladin, do not read further, since this will be a strongly slanted bit.

  Reveal hidden contents

Assuming that Shallan (perhaps through Veil) still has feelings for Kaladin, a Jasnahdin romance also opens up the idea for further development for Shallan as well. I don't see her relationship with Adolin succeeding, or lasting. Not unless she suddenly stops using him as a crutch. Jasnah is the one woman in all Roshar that Shallan truly envies. To have the man she passed up but still wants suddenly snatched by Jasnah would be a blow to her. It would certainly give the Veil side some reasons for sabotaging "Shallan's" efforts regarding her marriage. This isn't the point of the discussion, though, so I'll leave it there.

 

And that's my 2 cents regarding this. Hope you enjoyed the post!

Footnotes:

N1.) Note: This is a callback to his earlier assertion in Way of Kings that no matter what happened to those around him, he always survived--a fact that made him severely depressed and melancholic.

N2.) Again, this is a callback to Words of Radiance, when Kaladin said that Shallan and Adolin "fit." And both of these declarations are accompanying a time when Kaladin is at a low. First after the chasms, when Kaladin thought he'd killed Syl, then here, when Kaladin is beaten down by repeated failures--including his failure to save Amaram from himself, and Elhokar in Kholinar.

N3.) Kaladin is subtly calling her out. An "eel" is someone who fights dirty, like Sadeas.

N4.) Note the retraction and change of language here. This isn't "Oh, I'm going to rip this guy apart," this is "Oh, okay. This guy isn't going to simply roll over when I get stern." As most people she interacts with do.

N5.) Jasnah does not ask. Jasnah demands, and others obey. In this paragraph, she asks Kaladin if he could train his squires. And sidenote for the shipper within: Jasnah compares the Windrunners to skyeels, and says she'd happily cuddle a skyeel. The fact that this comes immediately after Kaladin's confrontation and opposition, which should have upset her and made for a hostile encounter, could be significant.

It’s the most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen.  The analyses was perfect. I’m convinced.

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

but she's also callous and indifferent.

Yes.  A person spending many sleepless nights trying to save the world at constant risk of assassination is clearly indifferent to the sufferings of the people.

2 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

She has no compunctions about murdering four men for a moral lesson,

Murders who she for some reason has an irrational hatred of.

2 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

, assassinating her brother's wife for the sake of her brother's rule

She decided against that, unfortunately as things turned out.

2 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

And finally, another crucial point regarding Jasnah is how she is treated. Jasnah is universally placed on a pedestal

Only by Shallan.  Dalinar likes her as more of a friend and Navani is almost always exasperated with her.  People who know Jasnah don't regard her like that.

2 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

Dalinar, Navani, Adolin--all of Jasnah's relatives acknowledge that Jasnah gets what Jasnah wants, you don't oppose Jasnah.

That is because she is usually right and because they know how forceful she is.

2 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

Even Teravangian seems in Way of Kings to defer to Jasnah.

Shallan notes that that is likely for political reasons.  Taravangian and by extension his city survives by being deferential and helpful to everyone more powerful then him.

[Karger he/him]

12 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

but Kaladin is unusually mature for his age. To say it's okay for an older man to be with a younger woman (in discrepancies of sometimes 30 years) but that a younger man with an older woman (in a discrepancy of likely less than 15 years), while at the same time saying that Kaladin and Lift should be paired (a discrepancy of 7-9 years), is absurdly misogynistic and sexist. Stop making this argument.

I don't think either relationship is currently viable.  Kaladin might be unusually mature and Jasnah might seem physically younger then she is depending on your interpretation of Shallan's description(even thought Shallan clearly has a thing for older women see Tyn) but neither of them have any common life experiences.  Also Lift and Kaladin are only 6 years apart which in 10 years will not be significant.  Kaladin and Jasnah are over 16 and that will be significant for some time.

 

12 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

My point is, there isn't any textual evidence Jasnah is asexual or lesbian. The textual evidence, is that she hasn't had a reason to express any interest. Jasnah can still be a strong, independent woman and potentially love a man--one does not have to detract from the other, but I agree wholeheartedly that a man who did that would be an extreme disservice to the character.

Jasnah does not discuss her sexuality publicly leading many both in and out of world to speculate that she is ace.  Make of that what you will.

12 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

I've seen this one over and over, and it makes no sense. Why? Because he has depression? Because he's broody? Because he's the MC? Because the MC having a love interest that's also an MC is tropy and overdone? These are all terrible arguments. Kaladin is a main character--and he's honestly the character of the lot who really needs someone the most, someone who is dynamic and can help him progress in ways only a main character can. But honestly, this oppositional point is largely subjective, so I'm not going to cover it very deeply.

Sigh.  What is it with fans?  Other fulfilling non romantic relationships exist that could potentially help him with his depression.  I would like to remind everyone that Kaladin's most important and fulfilling relationship to date was with his brother.

12 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

Jasnah is a somewhat amoral figure in a position of power

Jasnah is not amoral.  She likes prefers to govern her morality by reason.  Please do not confuse the two.

12 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

Jasnah's callousness gives her the perfect grounds for teaching Kaladin a lesson he's needed to learn since childhood

Given the difference between the two of them in terms of philosophies and beliefs.  I am not sure that this is the lesson Kaladin would learn nor am I sure that Jasnah is realy capable of teaching Kaladin anything. 

12 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

Kaladin, on the other hand, with his strong moral compass, is the perfect person to rein Jasnah in. Jasnah, left unchecked, could commit genocide in the pursuit of what is good for her and hers

If genocide was logical and unavoidable but it is noteworthy that the diagram has never tried to take in Jasnah despite ample opportunity.  I do not think she is anywhere near as immoral as you seem to believe.

12 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

Kaladin is no longer really considered a darkeyes by the public. Jasnah is a queen in a society where leadership is a male thing. All consideration that these two can't work together because of social politics completely ignores the societal revolution that occurred at the end of OB.

I kind of doubt that we are going to see a cultural revolution.  Generally crises have entrenched existing social and political orders.  Radiants may be diversifying gender wise but I bet in 30 years they will just be considered genderless like ardents.

12 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

"High King", Jasnah will be "High Queen." And Kaladin, I think, won't have an issue with this. Kaladin takes people on their merits, not on their gender or preference. He will be the tempering voice, the voice of caution and reason, while she will be the determining factor.

You are expecting KALADIN to be a voice of caution and reason over JASNAH?

12 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

And both of these declarations are accompanying a time when Kaladin is at a low.

Kaladin is getting better at the time.  He is feeling happier and becoming reflective.  This is healthy and good for him.

 

Edited July 9, 2019 by Karger

[ZenBossanova]

10 hours ago, Karger said:

I don't think either relationship is currently viable. 

A political marriage doesn't worry about age or relationships. It is for political purposes. There are age gaps much larger Jasnah-Kaladin gap for political marriages in history. 

[Karger he/him]

14 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

A political marriage doesn't worry about age or relationships. It is for political purposes. There are age gaps much larger Jasnah-Kaladin gap for political marriages in history. 

Sure but exactly what is the political benefit of a Kaladin Jasnah relationship?  Both of them are already members of allied political factions and I cannot think of a case where a marriage between them would actually alter either faction's beliefs.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

13 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

A political marriage doesn't worry about age or relationships. It is for political purposes. There are age gaps much larger Jasnah-Kaladin gap for political marriages in history. 

Only replying here because I don't want to digress the other thread. If you go through the rest of this thread, I did post my reasons as to why I do not see a case for a marriage between Kaladin and Jasnah rather extensively. If you are curious, I could repeat them, but otherwise I wish you well with your theory!

[AerionBFII he/him]

I've lurked upon this site for years and KalNah is still being debated and not changed XD

 

It goes a little something like this..

Spoiler

Kaladin and Jasnah: *Exist*

50% of 17th Shard: "Shut up and kiss already!!"

Other 50% of 17th Shard: "Nooooooo!"

 

 

[Karger he/him]

5 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

Other 50% of 17th Shard: "Nooooooo!"

What about us 1%.  "This does not seem like a good idea for either of them or like something they would be interested in."

[Use the Falchion]

9 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

It goes a little something like this..

  Reveal hidden contents

Most fandoms with any two single main characters with any interaction (and some without) tbh. It only becomes a problem when fandoms get toxic (and given how great the mods are and interactive Brandon is with the fanbase as a whole, I don't see that happening for a long, LONG time). 

[Sirscott13 he/him]

On 4/16/2018 at 7:52 AM, Stark said:

[Rock] is definitely more important in the Horneater culture than he lets on, or wants to admit.  

If he wasn’t before he is now. Rock said that his lord came to try and win a shard blade because the first of his people to do so would be made king. Rock killed a shard bearer winning two shards, and is on his way to getting his own Spren shardade. By Horneater standards, Rock is King. 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Sirscott13

[Karger he/him]

32 minutes ago, Sirscott13 said:

If he wasn’t before he is now. Rock said that his lord came to try and win a shard blade because the first of his people to do so would be made king. Rock killed a shard bearer winning two shards, and is on his way to getting his own Spren shardade. By Horneater standards, Rock is King. 

Will become King is my interpretation.  Hail his Majesty!  King Overlooked Stone!

[ZenBossanova]

This seemed pertinent, that both have Connection to the palace. 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

When Jasnah picks up the bead for the palace, is that the same bead that Kaladin picks up in Oathbringer?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Questioner

Is that a coincidence or is there something else...?

Brandon Sanderson

So, whenever things like that happen you can assume there's little bits of Connection going on that's changing the probability a little bit. You're not meant to read much into it, but the probability is increased because of thing like that.

And you'll find, if you look really closely, there are connections between the characters that are really subtle that I'm doing, that anyone who's touching the Spiritual Realm or thing like that. For instance, in the second book, Syl turns into Shallan while Shallan is washed up on the beach while Syl is talking to Kaladin somewhere else. There's enough Connection going on that you see Syl change shapes, and Kal's like, "It looks like she's walking on a beach!"

It's just Syl... because through all of that, is turning into... You'll find things like that <happening> all through the books, really subtle, really small. There's just meant to be, one of the things in the Cosmere is Connection. Your Connection to people, Connection to things, places, influences probability a little bit.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, ZenBossanova said:

This seemed pertinent, that both have Connection to the palace. 

It is not really.

1 hour ago, ZenBossanova said:

So, whenever things like that happen you can assume there's little bits of Connection going on that's changing the probability a little bit. You're not meant to read much into it, but the probability is increased because of thing like that.

 

[CosmicSieve]

Wasn't it Shallan that picked up the palace bead in Oathbringer, when she was looking for a means to get the group off the Kholinar Oathgate platform in Shadesmar? I don't remember Kaladin ever doing so, or showing any interests in the beads beyond the icy one when Captain Ico was making water. When did Jasnah pick up the palace bead-- I don't remember that either, but since she is an Elsecaller and can Soulcast it seems reasonable that she did. I just don't remember when.

[Elend Venture he/him]

9 hours ago, CosmicSieve said:

Wasn't it Shallan that picked up the palace bead in Oathbringer, when she was looking for a means to get the group off the Kholinar Oathgate platform in Shadesmar? I don't remember Kaladin ever doing so, or showing any interests in the beads beyond the icy one when Captain Ico was making water. When did Jasnah pick up the palace bead-- I don't remember that either, but since she is an Elsecaller and can Soulcast it seems reasonable that she did. I just don't remember when.

Jasnah's encounter is in the prologue to Words of Radience, on page 21 through 22. 

[Pathfinder]

22 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

This seemed pertinent, that both have Connection to the palace. 

 

Unless you are using that same rationale to mean that Kaladin and Shallan should end up together, because Syl transformed into Shallan on the beach, before Kaladin even met her, I do not personally think it means that. 

[Elend Venture he/him]

On 3/13/2018 at 6:19 AM, Vissy said:

 

Consider the very next chapter, Notes", p. 499.

 

     Reading Oathbringer again, it occurred to me that Jasnah is kind of asking Kaladin and his squires to cuddle her in a roundabout way 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Elend Venture

[alainesp]

Kaladin finds Jasnah attractive. At least this is how I read the text:

Quote

Shallan breathed out again, and the king was transfigured into a tall, stately Alethi woman with features reminiscent of Jasnah’s. Kaladin nodded appreciatively.

This is in Chapter 61 of Oathbringer.

[Pathfinder]

On 11/2/2019 at 8:52 PM, alainesp said:

Kaladin finds Jasnah attractive. At least this is how I read the text:

This is in Chapter 61 of Oathbringer.

Not to nitpick, but that is not the whole quote:

 

"Shallan breathed out again, and the king was transfigured into a tall, stately Alethi woman with features reminiscent of Jasnah's. Kaladin nodded appreciatively. Shallan was right; there was something about the way Elhokar held himself that bespoke nobility. This was an excellent way to deflect people who might wonder who he was"

 

I took that to mean Kaladin appreciated Shallan's thinking. That by changing Elhokar into a woman, Elhokar could still do his regal kingly bearing (thereby not forcing him to act differently) but still be different enough that people would not try to figure out who Elhokar really is. So I take that more appreciation towards Shallan's skills and capabilities, rather than the figure Elhokar mimics. But that is just my own take.