So how many secret societies do we have at this point?

[Velnica]

Amaram sounds like one of the head honcho of Sons of Honor though, so that might extend the Ghostbloods' feelings towards his group.

 

I would say that Wit counts as a secret society (or more like yet another faction in this Free For All Rosharian brawl). He's clearly got an agenda and is moving around the world trying to fulfil it. As far as recruitment drives go, he doesn't ask people to join, but subtly coerce them with information. May also be working with Jasnah next book too.

 

The only one I would omit is Vasher for now. There's too many missing info about why he's here.

[Seloun]

When Shallan is hiding in her fake boulder after showing them the sketches from Amaram's secret room:

 

 

“We will need to find how much he knows.” Mraize’s voice. “You will bring these pages to Master Thaidakar. We are close, but so— it appears— are Restares’s cronies.”

So it's probably not specific to just Amaram, but the whole group. In particular Restares seems to be the focus, not Amaram himself.

[Macen]

I had created a new post, but weiry directed me here (I hadn't seen this post yet.

Here is a little list I put together of the memebers of certain groups:
 

List of Groups - and Members:

The Sons of Honor (Reference Page 1060)

Gavilar (deceased)

Restares (Leader?)

Amaram

 

Ghostbloods

Thaidakar (Possibly leader?)

Kabsul (deceased)
Lin Davar (deceased)

Luesh (deceased)

Mraise

Iyatil

Veil (Shallan)
 

The Diagram (Reference Page 905)

Taravangian

Mrall

Adrotagia

Dova (runs the Silent Gatherers)

Graves

Danlan

Moash (newest member)

 

Shin Shamanate

Szeth (Former member - was truthless - now a Skybreaker in training)

SkyBreakers

Nalan (Leader)

Szeth

 

Possibly extinct group:

Envisagers

I'm missing a group or two here I'm sure. Also missing a few members - let me know what might need to be updated.

[Spark]

I'll so have to bookmark this, otherwise I'll be lost by the end of SA3 at the latest. Thanks, guys.

[Devo]

My thoughts:

I had created a new post, but weiry directed me here (I hadn't seen this post yet.

Here is a little list I put together of the memebers of certain groups:
 

List of Groups - and Members:

The Sons of Honor (Reference Page 1060)

Gavilar (deceased)

Restares (Leader?)

Amaram

This seems like a natural extension of the Envisagers, I'd put them in the same group. The key belief of both the Envisagers and the Sons of Honor is that the Radiants SHOULD return and that they WILL return in a time of peril. The only real difference is that the Envisagers were using personal peril, and the Sons are using global peril.

 

The Sons view the return of the voidbringers as the means to return the Heralds and Radiants. They want to hasten the voidbringers return to hasten the Radiants return. Through all this, they want to restore Vorin church rule (most likely because they believe that the world should be ruled by the morally superior adherents of the Heralds' teachings, or by the Heralds themselves.)

 

Ghostbloods

Thaidakar (Possibly leader?)

Kabsul (deceased)
Lin Davar (deceased)

Luesh (deceased)

Mraise

Iyatil

Veil (Shallan)

 

The Ghostbloods are in clear opposition to the Sons. Amaram believed (correctly) that the Ghostbloods sent Helaran to kill him. Mraize says that they should tell Thaidakar that they are getting close but also that Restares's cronies were getting close too, speaking to a direct opposition. I'm not sure what their motives are except that they definitely oppose the Sons goal of returning the voidbringers.

 

The Diagram (Reference Page 905)

Taravangian

Mrall

Adrotagia

Dova (runs the Silent Gatherers)

Graves

Danlan

Moash (newest member)

It seems to me that the Diagram group are very similar to the main characters in that they believe that the Voidbringers and the Desolation are returning. I think the difference is that Dalinar wants to gather the Radiants, unite the people of Alethkar and the world and present a united front to defeat the voidbringers. Dalinar is fighting for a 90% survival rate for humans and a victory over the Voidbringers.

Taravangian seems to believe that such a resistance is futile. He seeks to unite the world under his rule, so that he can enact a plan, but not to oppose the Voidbringers directly but to try and essentially sacrifice most of the world's popluation to save a handful of people. He's going for the 10% survival rate. He opposes Dalinar because 1. He believes that gathering Radiants and fighting will result in total defeat worse than his plan to save only a small percentage and 2. Dalinar is being too successful in unite the world to fight so he has to be stopped.

 

Another thing to note is that Taravangian knows that Gavilar was having the visions and believes he is acting according to them. He seems to think he is the one carrying on Gavilar's mission from the visons. I can only assume he does not know that Dalinar is actually the one chosen to do so.

 

Shin Shamanate

Szeth (Former member - was truthless - now a Skybreaker in training)

SkyBreakers

Nalan (Leader)

Szeth

 

I think Shallans mother may fit with this group. "She's one of them", proceed to try to kill Shallan. Darkness (I'm not totally convinced he's really Nalan) says that he is trying to kill surgebinders because they wield powers that could return the Desolation. He believes that the return of the Radiants will cause the return of the voidbringers. He also believes that preventing the return of the Radiants can prevent the return of the desolation.

 

Possibly extinct group:

Envisagers

I'm missing a group or two here I'm sure. Also missing a few members - let me know what might need to be updated.

[grinachu]

Helaran joined the Skybreakers not the Ghostbloods.

The Envisagers wanted to return the Radiants whereas the Sons of Honor wanted to restore the supremacy of the Vorin Church and return the Heralds.

If Gavilar was one of the Sons of Honor why did he think Restares migr be behind his attempted assassination?

Why did Gavilar share his visions with Taravingian and not Dalinar?

Darkness is Nalan.

[11thorderknight]

Yeah this is all confusing. The count so far:

 

1) Ghostbloods - seem the oldest, most established, and most Cosmere-aware. Led by Thaidakar. Want to find Urithiru. Ultimate goals unknown, but vague enough that they don't see Shallan's involvement in the re-founding of the Radiants as a barrier to her being a secret member. Have some sort of mutual beef with Jasnah that seems to go beyond a race to find  Urithiru.

 

2) Sons of Honor - want to recreate the Radiants/Voidbringers. Seem to understand that the two go together. Gavilar seems to have been a part of it, along with Amaram. Led by Restares. 

 

3) The Diagram - led by (maybe founded by) Taravangian. Seek to save humanity from the Last Desolation. Taravangian seems to have known of Gavilar's plans, or at least thought fondly of Gavilar, but unclear if Gavilar was ever knowingly involved with them. 

 

4) Skybreakers - Originally a Radiant order, currently a group of self-appointed law enforcement founded and directed by Nalan. Primary purpose seems to be to prevent Desolation by killing any potential surgebinders. 

 

5) Envisagers - Worshipped the Radiants and kept alive knowledge of their abilities. May have devolved into a crazy cult, and may now be extinct.

 

6) Stormwardens - Not secret, but seem to be heavily involved with both Sons of Honor and the Diagram. This could be just individual members, but maybe go deeper than that. My theory is that the Diagram is secretly manipulating the Sons of Honor into doing what they want.

Edited March 12, 2014 by 11thorderknight

[PudgyNinja]

Don't forget Diagram and the best part about it? they're all trying to save the world :D

 

This is one of my favorite things about Sanderson's writing.  His antagonists are almost always trying to save the world, or at least their corner of it.  Possible exception to godlike forces of nature like Ruin and Odium.

[DiamondMind]

[snip]

 

I'm going to merge the two lists, so we can discuss it instead of making new ones:

 

Yeah this is all confusing. The count so far:

 

1) Ghostbloods - seem the oldest, most established, and most Cosmere-aware, and might be Worldhoppers. Led by Thaidakar. Want to find Urithiru. Ultimate goals unknown, but vague enough that they don't see Shallan's involvement in the re-founding of the Radiants as a barrier to her being a secret member. Have some sort of mutual beef with Jasnah that seems to go beyond a race to find  Urithiru. Opposed to the Sons of Honor.

 

 

2) Sons of Honor - Sought to restore the Voidbringers in order to bring back the Heralds and restore the the supremacy of the Vorin church. and restore the supremacy of the Vorin church. Seem to understand that the two go together. Gavilar seems to have been a part of it, or at least that its purpose is based off his visions and intentions. Amaram is a member. Possibly led by Restares.  

 

3) The Diagram - led by (maybe founded by) Taravangian. Seek to save a remnant of humanity from the Last Desolation. Taravangian seems to have known of Gavilar's plans, or at least thought fondly of Gavilar, but unclear if Gavilar was ever knowingly involved with them. 

 

4) Skybreakers - Originally a Radiant order, currently a group of self-appointed law enforcement founded and directed by Nalan. (They also could be the original Skybreakers, see Windrunners theory.) Primary purpose seems to be to prevent Desolation by killing any potential surgebinders. Opposed to the Stone Shamans for reasons unknown.

 

5) Envisagers - Worshipped the Radiants and kept alive knowledge of their abilities. Attempted to restore themselves as teh Knights Radiant by placing themselves in positions of physical peril. May have devolved into a crazy cult, and may now be extinct.

 

6. Stone Shamanate. Made Szeth "truthless" because, at the very least, he predicted the return of the Knights Radiant. Protecting the Honorblades (presumably for 4500 years) but have shown no desire to assume responsibility for humanity. Opposed to the return of the Knights' Radiant. 

 

7.17th Shard. Looking for Hoid/Wit. Agenda:  We actually have no idea what they want with him. "Friends" with the "old Reptile"/Dragon from Yolen.

 

Question about this:  Stormwardens - Not secret, but seem to be heavily involved with both Sons of Honor and the Diagram. This could be just individual members, but maybe go deeper than that. My theory is that the Diagram is secretly manipulating the Sons of Honor into doing what they want.

 

We know that they have their own script, and we know that Amaram is adapting it. Is there any other connection?

[grinachu]

Let me ask my earlier question again. Why have so many societies continued to co-exist? The Skybreakers should have destroyed the Envisagers over the course of centuries. 

[DiamondMind]

Let me ask my earlier question again. Why have so many societies continued to co-exist? The Skybreakers should have destroyed the Envisagers over the course of centuries. 

 

Probably because they never actually succeeded, and Nalan seems to be able to track people by their surgebinding. A small cult never would have gotten his attention, or if they had maybe he left them as fools because you could never bring back the KR that way.

 

As for the others, the Sons of Honor and the Diagrammists and relatively new, and perhaps Nalan didn't have a problem with the Stone Shamans until now.

[Quazar87]

I was under the impression that the Ghostbloods and the followers of the Diagram are the same organization, but Gavikar's words as he dies do put a damper on that. Hmmm...

[gravytrain]

I suppose since they have tattoo's on their cheek the Oldbloods are hardly a secret society.  Possibly worth keeping an eye on though.

[DiamondMind]

Second list:

Non-secret Societies and secret people not in societies:

Hoid: Stop Odium by any means necessary

Vasher: Possibly to leave somewhere he doesn't have to use Breaths

Oldbloods: Who are these guys??  Can someone ask Brandon? They have a blue tatoo on their cheek.

Stormwardens: Secretive and have created their own script seen in use by Amaram. Might be connected to the Sons of Honor. 

 

Anyone else?

[Seloun]

Second list:

Non-secret Societies and secret people not in societies:

Hoid: Stop Odium by any means necessary

Vasher: Possibly to leave somewhere he doesn't have to use Breaths

Oldbloods: Who are these guys??  Can someone ask Brandon? They have a blue tatoo on their cheek.

Stormwardens: Secretive and have created their own script seen in use by Amaram. Might be connected to the Sons of Honor. 

 

Anyone else?

 

What about the Vanrial?

 

Also, one of the ardents in WoK has an interesting conversation with Dalinar ("Gibletish" - ch 54) where he tells Dalinar that they'll get back in touch with him. Not clear if this is something going on in the church or another group represented here.

[DiamondMind]

What about the Vanrial?

 

Also, one of the ardents in WoK has an interesting conversation with Dalinar ("Gibletish" - ch 54) where he tells Dalinar that they'll get back in touch with him. Not clear if this is something going on in the church or another group represented here.

 

Noted. I didn't remember either of those offhand, even though I've done at least 3 thorough rereads. Good catch.

 

Non-secret Societies and secret people not in societies:

Hoid: Stop Odium by any means necessary

Vasher: Possibly to leave somewhere he doesn't have to use Breaths

Oldbloods: Who are these guys??  Can someone ask Brandon? They have a blue tatoo on their cheek.

Stormwardens: Secretive and have created their own script seen in use by Amaram. Might be connected to the Sons of Honor. 

Random Ardent from WoK ch. 54: Agenda unkown. Mentioned that "we" will contact Dalinar again.

Vanrial: A group that preserves ancient historical records and practices. No more is known about them.

[Martinitram]

 

 

3. Skybreakers, led by Nalan, - agenda is to prevent the rise of the Knights Radiant in the hope of forestalling a new Desolation. Also warring against stone shamanate of Shinovar. (maybe, Nalan's intentions are unclear.) 

 

Wasn't Shallan's brother, Heleran, said to be a Skybreaker? I think one of the Ghostbloods made this connection.

[Martinitram]

 

Posted Today, 12:21 PM

Quote

 

 

3. Skybreakers, led by Nalan, - agenda is to prevent the rise of the Knights Radiant in the hope of forestalling a new Desolation. Also warring against stone shamanate of Shinovar. (maybe, Nalan's intentions are unclear.) 

 

Wasn't Shallan's brother, Heleran, said to be a Skybreaker? I think one of the Ghostbloods made this connection.

 

To add to this:

 

If Heleran was a skybreaker, and Amaram (whom he attempted to assinate) is not a surgebinder, wouldn't that expand the purpose of the skybreakers past merely trying to eliminate surgebinders? (Assuming he was on a skybreaker mission and not acting on his own agenda) 

[Elena]

Might be wrong but:

Well, the Skybreakers are trying to stop the next Desolation - by killing surgebinders if necessary - while the Sons of Honor seem to want to bring back the voidbringers hoping the Heralds will return as well. Amaram isn't a surgebinder, but the skybreakers have plenty of reasons to off him.

[Martinitram]

 

 

If Heleran was a skybreaker, and Amaram (whom he attempted to assinate) is not a surgebinder, wouldn't that expand the purpose of the skybreakers past merely trying to eliminate surgebinders? (Assuming he was on a skybreaker mission and not acting on his own agenda) 

 

Perhaps Nalan/Heleran were trying to draw out Kaladin by attempting to assassinate Amaram (Nalan may have been able to sense a surgebeinder in Amarams army, but not sure exactly who)

 

However, Elana's comment makes sense as well:

 

 

Well, the Skybreakers are trying to stop the next Desolation - by killing surgebinders if necessary - while the Sons of Honor seem to want to bring back the voidbringers hoping the Heralds will return as well. Amaram isn't a surgebinder, but the skybreakers have plenty of reasons to off him. 

 

IMO, I think the true agenda of the skybreakers is not yet realized. Too many things going on to simply say they are only interested in eliminating surgebinders. 

 

Nalan is the Herald of justice.. I can see that he may feel justice in killing radiants in reaction to the recreance, and yet he has let some live (i.e Lift, Shallan -her mother made an attempt but not Heleran, he must have known about Jasnah) Maybe he is not powerful enough to kill all the surgebinders, which is why he must recruit others like Szeth. But I think his motives are much deeper than prolonging the desolation, especially now that it has finally arrived.

 

Killing surgebinders, or certain surgebinders may fit in with his agenda, but it can't be all there is..

[Elena]

Wait , so can the Heralds 'sense' surgebinders? Is it confirmed? Didn't seem the case with Taln, but then again, the guy is crazy.

Killing surgebinders, or certain surgebinders may fit in with his agenda, but it can't be all there is..

'There is always another secret'

[thejopen27]

My issue is with the motives of the stone staminate. We know nothing about them.  Are they opposed to the return of the Radiants, or did they just not believe Szeth. Also, are they even a secret, it seems to me that they are the leaders of Shinovar and if an outsider were allowed in he or she would probably find out about them.  We just don't know enough about them, if they were given more evidence about the return of the Radiants would they change their mind? 

 

They have been tasked for 4500 years to protect and hide the Honorblades and now one person sees evidence of the Desolation that no one else does.  I would be skeptical too.

 

Also it seems to me that Nalan is misguided or misinformed in his quest to kill surgebinders to prevent the desolation.  Both Syl, Wyndle and Pattern either directly say or heavily imply that their spren sent them now because they sensed the coming desolation and came to prevent or counteract it.  This would imply the Spren are reacting to the desolation and not the other way around.  Also Nalan should remember that the Desolations came first and Spren started giving surgebinding to humans in response to the Heralds power and the desolations.  The first desolations had no surgebinders other than the Heralds as implied by Dalinar's visions, Taln, and Jasnah's research.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Wait , so can the Heralds 'sense' surgebinders? Is it confirmed? Didn't seem the case with Taln, but then again, the guy is crazy.

'There is always another secret'

Nothing is confirmed for Heralds in general but it's pretty safe to say the Nalan has the ability to sense someone who is investing, wether or not they have outward physical signs of it. When lift ate the bread, he sensed she was gaining stormlight before she started to act and was confused as to how she was acquiring it.

[happyman]

Also, one of the ardents in WoK has an interesting conversation with Dalinar ("Gibletish" - ch 54) where he tells Dalinar that they'll get back in touch with him. Not clear if this is something going on in the church or another group represented here.

 

If I absolutely had to choose a one of the knownish factions to put that ardent into, it would be Sons of Honor, just for the church connections.  I don't view any of the others as at all likely.  My second guess would be "unknown" rather than any of the others.

[BrindIf]

It may not be related, but do we have any idea why Jasnah wanted to assassinate Ausean (Elhokar's wife)?

It could be because she fears she will be a terrible queen, but it doesn't fit, IMO, Jasnah's personality to kill on light reasons. It could also be because she had evidence of Ausean being part of something bigger.