Why is surgery a masucline art ?

[Zape]

Isn't surgery very much a extension of biology a feminine art ? at first i thought this only applied to battlefield medics and surgeons but no one found it odd for Taravangian to be intrested in medicine apothecary's seem male and from how Lirin described the Kharbranthian council of surgeons they also sounded male

ps i only read the way of kings so far if this is answered later please ignore

Edited February 26, 2018 by Zape

[Szmit]

I don't know if that what I'm writting there was mentioned in the books or WOB, but there are no real spoilers, just some worldbuilding details mentioned in the background.

As far as we know the gender roles were chosen by some woman that lived lived long ago. Mabye she just didn't like blood ?

Someone allso mentioned that the roles have something to do with using one vs two hands, but i don't know how this applies.

Besides surgery requires cutting alive people. That may also be a reason.

[Yezrien]

It might also be a modesty issue. Seeing inside someone's body is like an extension of seeing them naked (which is also part of being a surgeon). Maybe that's just too scandalous for the delicate sensibilities of the proper Vorin female.

[Elenion he/him]

A long time ago, a Vorin scholar differentiated the masculine and feminine arts by which ones could be done with one or two hands. The feminine arts (including writing) can be performed one-handed, hence why Vorin females can wear the safehand glove but yet still function. Masculine arts (such as fighting) must be done two-handed. Since surgery requires two hands to do well, it is a masculine art. A Vorin female wearing a safehand glove would be unable to perform surgery.

[Weltall]

Yeah, that ancient Vorin treatise on masculine versus feminine arts used the number of hands required as the distinguishing feature, which is why surgery is considered masculine.

Quote

Questioner

Safehands: Where did, that-- like why? Is there like a cultural *inaudible*?

Brandon Sanderson

There is a culture-- Now the actual answer to that is because different cultures have really different mores, and if you go around our world you will find places where, for instance, showing the bottom of your foot-- where the bottom of your foot is offensive, or where showing certain parts of your anatomy is not offensive that it is here. And that is very common, it's part of what it means to be human.

Now if you want to trace back in Rosharan time, there is actually a moment that you can point at and say "this is where it started" and it started right after the Recreance where all these Shardblades and Shardplate were suddenly out there everywhere, and certain people in power wanted to make sure that half the population didn't have access to them, and so they started emphasizing a certain philosophy book that had been written by a woman that said "feminine arts were one-handed, masculine arts were two-handed".

And because of this it became culturally ingrained, which then-- basically it was a misogynistic ploy to keep the women from having the Shardblades, and then in that a certain movement of the women seized writing, and that's when men stopped writing. It's kind of a reciprocation on it. But that's kind of where it went, but it's become much bigger than that, if that makes any sense.

 

[RShara she/her]

There are female surgeons, so I don't think it's a masculine or feminine art.  I spotted one in WoR....lemme find it.  WoR Spoiler

Spoiler

Dalinar undid his breastplate and sat down with a grunt as the surgeon ordered him a stool. He suffered the woman’s ministration, though he knew the wound was not terrible. It was bad—any wound was bad on the battlefield, particularly if it impaired the sword arm—but it wouldn’t kill him.

 

Remember that while high ranking lighteyes do the sleeve thing, most darkeyed women just wear a glove.

Edited February 26, 2018 by RShara

[Weltall]

1 minute ago, RShara said:

There are female surgeons, so I don't think it's a masculine or feminine art.  I spotted one in WoR....lemme find it.

She could be an ardent and the text just doesn't mention it? We know the normal rules don't apply to them, which is why Ivis can learn swordsmanship and male ardents can read..

[RShara she/her]

I guess she could be.  But Vedel was a surgeon, or trained surgeons, (OB)

Spoiler

according to Taln's rant,

so it would be really weird for it to be a masculine art.

Edited February 26, 2018 by RShara

[Govir]

It's also possible that it's not mentioned as either. I remember a scene in WoR that alludes to this possibility.
Since you haven't read WoR, I'll put it behind a spoiler...but it's really very minor and doesn't reveal any plot.

Spoiler

Page 317:
"Horseback riding isn't mentioned in Arts and Majesty," she replied. ... "Let's just say that anyone who wants can be a groom, all right?"

 

 

[RShara she/her]

Ack, I didn't see that the OP hadn't read past WoK.  Putting stuff behind spoiler tags now.

[Weltall]

44 minutes ago, RShara said:

I guess she could be.  But Vedel was a surgeon, or trained surgeons <snipped> so it would be really weird for it to be a masculine art.

Good point (@Govir too) that it may not have been mentioned, though I have a feeling that it really should be considered 'masculine' under the one hand/two hands thing because of all the fine work required, needing to hold things in place with one hand while working with another, switching tools with an off hand... but I suppose it could go either way as long as there are qualified assistants available, as can happen in the real world.

As far as Vedel training surgeons goes, she predates the tradition of dividing arts by gender. If the Vorin church can handle the idea that the female Heralds used swords, they could probably wrap their minds around the idea of female Heralds practicing 'masculine' arts or vice versa. So I think that could go either way too.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Weltall

[RShara she/her]

Yeah I can see that.  Or maybe it's only darkeyes and lower dahn lighteyes that become surgeons, because they can pull off the glove instead of the sleeve.  It could definitely go either way.

[Zape]

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

Questioner

Safehands: Where did, that-- like why? Is there like a cultural *inaudible*?

Brandon Sanderson

There is a culture-- Now the actual answer to that is because different cultures have really different mores, and if you go around our world you will find places where, for instance, showing the bottom of your foot-- where the bottom of your foot is offensive, or where showing certain parts of your anatomy is not offensive that it is here. And that is very common, it's part of what it means to be human.

Now if you want to trace back in Rosharan time, there is actually a moment that you can point at and say "this is where it started" and it started right after the Recreance where all these Shardblades and Shardplate were suddenly out there everywhere, and certain people in power wanted to make sure that half the population didn't have access to them, and so they started emphasizing a certain philosophy book that had been written by a woman that said "feminine arts were one-handed, masculine arts were two-handed".

And because of this it became culturally ingrained, which then-- basically it was a misogynistic ploy to keep the women from having the Shardblades, and then in that a certain movement of the women seized writing, and that's when men stopped writing. It's kind of a reciprocation on it. But that's kind of where it went, but it's become much bigger than that, if that makes any sense.

wait what ? that doesn't make sense why do things like writing become a feminine art then ? yes it can be done with one hand and so does fighting with a arming sword or a dagger there must have been smaller shardblades and why did reading become a feminine art ? a handles invalid could read and why do the men do not see the stupidity of being able to read glyphs but not text shouldnt this system mean man can do anything a women can do but not vice versa and what about darkeyed women who only wear gloves ? as was brought up in this thread i can see why masculine arts are fine for female ardent's but why are feminine arts okay for male ardents ? and why is their a separation of food ? that's just impractical

Edited February 26, 2018 by Zape

[Scion of the Mists]

54 minutes ago, Zape said:

wait what ? that doesn't make sense why do things like writing become a feminine art then ? yes it can be done with one hand and so does fighting with a arming sword or a dagger there must have been smaller shardblades and why did reading become a feminine art ? a handles invalid could read and why do the men do not see the stupidity of being able to read glyphs but not text shouldnt this system mean man can do anything a women can do but not vice versa and what about darkeyed women who only wear gloves ? as was brought up in this thread i can see why masculine arts are fine for female ardent's but why are feminine arts okay for male ardents ? and why is their a separation of food ? that's just impractical

I think that this is a parallel to our world.  A lot of our traditions and gender roles don't really make sense and are still in existence due to cultural inertial.  Brandon has talked about how one of the things he enjoys about writing fantasy is that he can discuss these kind of sensitive topics (gender roles, etc.) without getting bogged down by all of the real Earth baggage.  

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Zape said:

wait what ? that doesn't make sense why do things like writing become a feminine art then ? yes it can be done with one hand and so does fighting with a arming sword or a dagger there must have been smaller shardblades and why did reading become a feminine art ? a handles invalid could read and why do the men do not see the stupidity of being able to read glyphs but not text shouldnt this system mean man can do anything a women can do but not vice versa and what about darkeyed women who only wear gloves ? as was brought up in this thread i can see why masculine arts are fine for female ardent's but why are feminine arts okay for male ardents ? and why is their a separation of food ? that's just impractical

Because it was a two sided power struggle not just one vs two hands.

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Why can only women read in [The] Stormlight Archive?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Immediately after the Recreance an old book was used to argue for the idea that only men should be picking up the blades and plate, fighting was a masculine art. Over a period of 20 or so years this became established and some women used the same argument to take back some power by taking literacy for themselves as a feminine art.

source

 

[Zape]

11 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I think that this is a parallel to our world.  A lot of our traditions and gender roles don't really make sense and are still in existence due to cultural inertial.  Brandon has talked about how one of the things he enjoys about writing fantasy is that he can discuss these kind of sensitive topics (gender roles, etc.) without getting bogged down by all of the real Earth baggage.  

i get what he was trying to do but the thing is the rules dont seem to have any justification to them in the real world woman were considered intellectually inferior to man until probably the 40's that is clearly not the case in roshar and so that raises the question are men seen as intellectually inferior ? if so why do do men seem to be the leading force in politics ? why are the kings man ? and the traders ? what actual justification does the culture provide to this massive impracticality and inconsistency ? with the lawmakers being man did no one ever think "wait why cant we do this ? "

[Zape]

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

Because it was a two sided power struggle not just one vs two hands.

but man run the political world

[Szmit]

52 minutes ago, Zape said:

i get what he was trying to do but the thing is the rules dont seem to have any justification to them in the real world woman were considered intellectually inferior to man until probably the 40's that is clearly not the case in roshar and so that raises the question are men seen as intellectually inferior ? if so why do do men seem to be the leading force in politics ? why are the kings man ? and the traders ? what actual justification does the culture provide to this massive impracticality and inconsistency ? with the lawmakers being man did no one ever think "wait why cant we do this ? "

After men locked down the swords, they were on loosing position with writing, that's the tradeof.

Neither Adolin or Dalinar consider themselves as smart people, but they are considered good leaders. Also during creaction of Alekhar Kingdom it was Sadeas's wife who did most of the thinking.

That seems to be the division. Wife thinks, husband decides.

After all their god is Honor, not a very thoughtfull god.

[Zape]

18 minutes ago, Szmit said:

After men locked down the swords, they were on loosing position with writing, that's the tradeof.

Neither Adolin or Dalinar consider themselves as smart people, but they are considered good leaders. Also during creaction of Alekhar Kingdom it was Sadeas's wife who did most of the thinking.

That seems to be the division. Wife thinks, husband decides.

After all their god is Honor, not a very thoughtfull god.

this isn't a recent thing the rules existed since the fall of the original knights radiant surely in all of that time there must have been a smart man in a position of power

Edited February 27, 2018 by Zape

[Calderis he/him]

@Zape it's not that simple. Yes the society appears very patriarchal, but what can a man accomplish without a women to work with him? Officers in the military are essentially a man and wife team.

Sadeas was a pile of crem, and still look at his relationship with Ialai. Power is designed to be shared in a hetero relationship in Vorinism. They may be accepting of other orientations, but the society is designed to function with man and wife teams, where both halves are necessary for work to be done. 

How far can a king get without anyone to write for him? 

[Zape]

@Calderis i don't really think you got my point your analysis appears correct the problem is the system is built upon reverence of the tradition and not much else there is no reason a powerful man could not learn to read and write and convince people to do away with the old ways entirely at least for man if not for both genders and with how long this system exits you would think that a smart man would decide to do this for any number of reason

Edited June 26, 2018 by Zape

[Calderis he/him]

30 minutes ago, Zape said:

@Calderis i don't really think you got my point your analysts appears correct the problem is the system is built upon reverence of the tradition and not much else there is no reason a powerful man could not learn to read and write and convince people to do away with the old ways entirely at least for man if not for both genders and with how long this system exits you would think that a smart man would decide to do this for any number of reason

I didn't understand but I do now. 

Of course there will be men who have learned to read, just as we've seen women with blades. They're not going to be flaunting it, because it's not socially acceptable. It would take a full cultural shift to change that. Which is what happened in the past to reach this point. 

Why is it alright for men to be topless but not women IRL? On a hit day why can't a man put on a sundress to stay cool? I'm sure there are people who willingly do these things, but societal norms pressure them not to (and laws in many cases with the topless thing.) 

There will always be people who subvert social norms. They have to keep it quiet though, or they are shunned. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by Calderis

[Scion of the Mists]

7 hours ago, Zape said:

i get what he was trying to do but the thing is the rules dont seem to have any justification to them in the real world woman were considered intellectually inferior to man until probably the 40's that is clearly not the case in roshar and so that raises the question are men seen as intellectually inferior ? if so why do do men seem to be the leading force in politics ? why are the kings man ? and the traders ? what actual justification does the culture provide to this massive impracticality and inconsistency ? with the lawmakers being man did no one ever think "wait why cant we do this ? "

Our real-life gender roles and traditions have very little to do with "women being considered intellectually inferior."  (To be sure, it is a cause, but not the only cause)  What do clothing norms, behavior expectations, anatomical acceptableness (toplessness, soles of feet, middle finger) have to do with intelligence.  

I, for one, think that this is a masterful way of sidestepping biases and getting people to look at these things in a new light.  They see all of these bizarre social norms in Roshar, and think "that's silly."  Then, maybe, they start to tie it to our world and start to wonder, "why do we think girls can't do math?" or "why is it unmasculine to cry?"

7 hours ago, Zape said:

what actual justification does the culture provide to this massive impracticality and inconsistency ?

This is a great question, and one that we should be asking about our world.  

[Zape]

@Calderis well the first one really just has to do with sexual attraction man gawk over breasts but woman don't care for male nipples the second one is stupid i agree my point was it seems odd to me that no smart charismatic man was born in a position of power from which he could convince other people to abandon the tradition

Edited June 26, 2018 by Zape

[Scion of the Mists]

15 minutes ago, Zape said:

@Calderis well the first one really just has to do with sexual attraction man gawk over breasts but weman don't care for male nipples the second one is stupid i agree my point was it seems odd to me that no smart charismatic man was born in a position of power from which he could convince other people to abandon the tradition

This is a cultural tradition that does not exist in all societies.  The fact that it seems so obvious to us just underscores how deeply rooted these things are.  

Trying to avoid spoilers, but let's just say that, with regards to this topic, the last part of Oathbringer will be very interesting for you to read.