[OB] Heralds, Fused, Braize

[Ciridae]

Not sure about spoilers here sooo... 

Spoiler

So Odium starts creating Fused and they come back right after being killed. The Heralds realize that they have to stop that from happening, so they ask Honor to turn them into Heralds. They go the Braize, lock away the Fused until one of them breaks, then all of them return to Roshar and fight in the Desolation. But... If all ten Heralds are on Roshar during the beginning of a desolation then who is keeping the Fused from coming back during the start of the Desolation where all Heralds were fighting on Roshar presumably killing Fused? 

Seems to me like they would have to kill one of the Heralds at the beginning of each Desolation and send them back so that the Fused that were killed from that point on couldn't come back.  Obviously that didn't happen, so what's the reason the Fused don't just pop back until one of the Heralds falls in the Desolation? 

Does the Oathpact deal with that regardless of where the Heralds are? But if that's the case why this:

Quote

luke.spence (paraphrased)

What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end

darkanimereal1 (paraphrased)

Oh. So they've got a time limit.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again.

luke.spence (paraphrased)

So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think.

source

Or is it not a distinction between Roshar and Braize, but rather the physical and the cognitive realm? 

I could accept the explanation that the Oathpact keeps the Fused contained for a while during the Desolation but if the Heralds dont return after the Fused manage to get back and a new Desolation starts. But if the Oathpact is capable of doing that without the Heralds, why didnt Honor and Cultivation just keep that mechanism in place? Why did it have to the need for ten humans?

 

[RShara she/her]

I think that it takes a decent amount of time for the Fused to respawn on Braize and make the transition from there back to Roshar.  So the Heralds have some leeway about how and when they go back.

[Calderis he/him]

There has to be a time constraints on the Fused returning to Roshar. It would finally explain the time constraints implicit in this WoB. 

Quote

luke.spence (paraphrased)

What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end

darkanimereal1 (paraphrased)

Oh. So they've got a time limit.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again.

luke.spence (paraphrased)

So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think.

source

 

[Ciridae]

I hadn't though of that. But what makes the Fused go back to Braize in the first place? Shouldn't they pop up in the CR of Roshar when they die? 

[Calderis he/him]

14 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

I hadn't though of that. But what makes the Fused go back to Braize in the first place? Shouldn't they pop up in the CR of Roshar when they die? 

It's a good question, and one that I don't have an inkling of an explanation for. We've seen normal death in the Cognitive on Roshar and unlike in Scadrial there's no temporary CS that gets pulled beyond, the flames just wink out. So I've no idea how death on Roshar works compared to what we've seen elsewhere. 

[Weltall]

51 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

I hadn't though of that. But what makes the Fused go back to Braize in the first place? Shouldn't they pop up in the CR of Roshar when they die? 

It's possible that whatever Odium did to create the Fused also draws them to Braize (the nexus of his Investiture) whenever they die. He outright states that he could rescind whatever allows any given Singer to be a Fused when one of them questions him, which suggests a more active link than we've seen with other Cognitive Shadows and the Shards whose Investiture has permeated them.

[Oversleep]

Perhaps it's the nature of a deal Shards have made? I mean, it stands to reason that there is one, since Dalinar can release Odium from it and let him go from Roshar.

Honor & Cultivaiton probably have an agreement with Odium concerning Fused and Heralds. It probably has conditions like that Odium must release Heralds from Braize to start a Desolation, that Heralds must come back, otherwise a new one will start, things like this.

Oathpact is the agreement between Honor and Heralds. They swore to seal back the Fused to the Braize, but if the bend under torture then Fused can return...

Wait, something isn't right. Honor did not anticipate that Heralds could bend their word and let Fused come back. Then why are there additional conditions? Perhaps it's an addendum made after Heralds broke for the first time?

[Mistspren she/her]

So, the Everstorm is now the thing that reincarnates the Fused, but back before Anharietam, there was no Everstorm.

Possibly the Fused returned to Braize, where they were trapped by the Oathpact because the Heralds were upholding their oath to protect by fighting the Voidbringers, even while on Roshar. Only when they broke and left Braize, starting a Desolation, did their oaths break. Now, the Fused are no longer stuck on Braize because the Everstorm is another nexus of Odium’s power, drawing the Fused there rather than to Braize. Thus the Everstorm is a way for Odium to circumvent the oathpact, even if he himself is still restricted.

It makes sense if you think about Honor’s emphasis on oaths, but it’s only a theory.

I would guess Odium has been laying the foundations of this for a while in order to allow his Fused relative immortality on Roshar, giving him agents to destroy humans and free Odium.

Unless the Fused’s goal is to do whatever they did to Jezerien to all the Heralds, breaking the oathpact fully and freeing Odium. Still, just a theory.

Hope this makes sense.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Mistspren

[Calderis he/him]

@Mistspren it makes total sense and are my thoughts on it.

I don't know own what the mechanics are, but I envision it as the Fused are pulled to Braize more strongly than they are to the Beyond, and while there they are infused with enough investiture to remain. The mechanism to do this isn't needed beyond that first death, but it's still there because it's also what will allow Odium to easily reclaim that power later. 

The Everstorm is a secondary version of the same mechanism that acts as a net, catching the souls of the Fused before they can be pulled away. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by Calderis

[Mistspren she/her]

In Mistborn: Secret History, we learn that more Invested people can hold on to the cognitive realm more easily. (e.g. Kelsier and Vin as opposed to Elend) The Fused were Invested in by Odium, or Voidspren, or something of that ilk, which would allow them to stay for long enough to be returned.

I am quite inexperienced when it comes to more advanced realmatic theory, but I'd assume Odium has set up something (along the lines of Calderis's guess) that pulls them back to Braize, and later on the Everstorm. It could be more of a magnetic type pull, or a spren that guides them there. Whatever the case, Honor likely copied this system for the Heralds, which leads me to believe that when Jezerien was killed, he is less dead, more trapped by Odium, possibly held and tortured until he gives up and is pulled toward the spiritual realm. This final death would sever him from the oathpact, weakening it further. 

This also sets up the disclaimer that if Odium ever wanted to remove a Fused, he could reabsorb the investiture and they would be sent to the spiritual realm.

Interestingly, this could mean that Odium could pack up his Voidbringer army quickly and leave as soon as he was freed, with minimal losses to his power, as he is likely not as Invested in Roshar or Braize as Honor or Cultivation ever were, he merely hijacked an existing race that could be easily controlled with spren.

It is also interesting, seeing that Honor was invested in a few immortal champions, Cultivation would have been more powerful, leading Honor to be seen as the more opportune target, but it may have been set up this way. Honor devised the oathpact, which locked away Odium, fully knowing his Heralds would eventually break, setting up a system for what would happen when that occurred. Honor and Cultivation also expected Odium, being sly and crafty, to kill Honor, then eventually find a way around the oathpact. Thus Honor groomed the Stormfather to be a backup 'mini-Honor', and possibly Cultivation prepared the Nightwatcher just in case. Cultivation, not having given up as much as Honor on the Heralds, allowed Honor to be killed, possibly even helped it along. All this to play the super long game. The real question then, is what exactly is the final goal. Splintering of Odium? Simply the death of Rayse? 

Again, this is just theorizing, but it definitely seems that Cultivation is on top of things, (re: Taravangian, Dalinar, Lift) with a complex web of plans to catch Odium, and it seems the only major deviations are the Recreance and the Everstorm, but even the Everstorm was planned for by Honor.

Sorry about all the words, but it definitely appears that this is all part of a plan. Unfortunately for the Radiants, Odium likely has a plan too.

[RShara she/her]

3 hours ago, Mistspren said:

So, the Everstorm is now the thing that reincarnates the Fused, but back before Anharietam, there was no Everstorm.

Possibly the Fused returned to Braize, where they were trapped by the Oathpact because the Heralds were upholding their oath to protect by fighting the Voidbringers, even while on Roshar. Only when they broke and left Braize, starting a Desolation, did their oaths break. Now, the Fused are no longer stuck on Braize because the Everstorm is another nexus of Odium’s power, drawing the Fused there rather than to Braize. Thus the Everstorm is a way for Odium to circumvent the oathpact, even if he himself is still restricted.

It makes sense if you think about Honor’s emphasis on oaths, but it’s only a theory.

I would guess Odium has been laying the foundations of this for a while in order to allow his Fused relative immortality on Roshar, giving him agents to destroy humans and free Odium.

Unless the Fused’s goal is to do whatever they did to Jezerien to all the Heralds, breaking the oathpact fully and freeing Odium. Still, just a theory.

Hope this makes sense.

That actually makes a lot of sense.  I've been trying to think of a good reason for them to not immediately return to Roshar, and that sounds like it could be plausible.  The only objection I have is that the Oathpact is just between the Heralds and Honor, and involves the Fused, it doesn't relate to Odium at all, really.  So breaking the Oathpact shouldn't have any affect on Odium.

Maybe Odium is just worried that the Heralds will find a way to pull the Fused back to Braize and stop the Everstorm?  Or maybe he just wants to deprive his opposition of the information that the Heralds could provide, assuming they were sane enough to communicate that information.

 

[Mistspren she/her]

Oh I always assumed the thing trapping Odium in the Greater Rosharan system was the oathpact...

There's probably a WoB or statement in a book contradicting me, but I forgot to check. I was under the assumption that if the oathpact was well and truly broken Odium would be freed, but now that I think about it I realize Odium could have contrived to remove the Heralds without a Desolation.

[RShara she/her]

23 minutes ago, Mistspren said:

Oh I always assumed the thing trapping Odium in the Greater Rosharan system was the oathpact...

There's probably a WoB or statement in a book contradicting me, but I forgot to check. I was under the assumption that if the oathpact was well and truly broken Odium would be freed, but now that I think about it I realize Odium could have contrived to remove the Heralds without a Desolation.

Yeah Odium was trapped before the Oathpact.  I think that's why he decided to Invest the dead Singers so that they could return and cause desolations.  There's a WoB that the Oathpact was just between the Heralds and Honor, and the Stormfather confirms this when he talks about the Heralds.

Edited February 24, 2018 by RShara

[Yata he/him]

I assumed the Fused as CS can't remain far from their homeland once they lose the physical (by WoB a CS with a physical body is less constrained in leaving the planet).
Sure now the Everstorm is on Roshar, it's likely that Roshar is now a more compatible envirorment for them and they are no longer pulled to Braize