[OB] Stormlight Reread & Shallan Character Analysis

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

59 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Keep in mind that a book merchant is a part of the "middle class" - a part of the merchant caste, if you will. They would naturally be of a higher nahn, perhaps even being lighteyed, compared to Yalb who is, well, clearly quite low in the social ranking. I think her disparate treatment of Yalb and the book merchant is only further proof of her deep-seated classism.

They are darkeyed, I had checked into it before replying, but even though she notes his condescension before even making a request, she begins her part of the conversation with a polite, and formal, request. 

Quote

“Ah,” he said, clapping ample hands, “dear young woman. Are you in the market for a nice novel? Some leisure reading to pass the cruel hours while you are separated from a lost love? Or perhaps a book on geography, with details of exotic locations?” He had a slightly condescending tone and spoke in her native Veden.

“I—No, thank you. I need an extensive set of books on history and three on philosophy.” She thought back, trying to recall the names Jasnah had used. “Something by Placini, Gabrathin, Yustara, Manaline, or Shauka-daughter-Hasweth.”

I'm not saying I disagree, only that at this point I can't throw my full support behind that reasoning when there are a few other explanations that could fit as well, and that I'd like to throw those out there for future reference as @Alderant goes through to give more angles to attack his from.

(Also I really like Shallan and I don't want her to be classist. I'm not biased. Not at all.)

Edited February 26, 2018 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Vissy]

Well, there are many ways to interpret it  it could also just be that Shallan is more familiar with Yalb and in their social hierarchy Shallan is the leader, whereas with the book merchant she just wants to haggle him out of his money  buy some books important for her wardship. 

[Guest]

Regarding Shallan berating the book merchant, there is actually an annotation by Brandon.

Quote

[...]

Shallan berates the book merchant

The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two’s flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.”

Shallan’s father has an infamous temper; it’s buried deep within her as well. If she’d been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. [...]

https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-the-way-of-kings-chapter-8/

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

28 minutes ago, SLNC said:

"...Still, the person she could become is buried inside her..."

Who needs a shovel when you've got a barrel of Horneater White?

Edited February 26, 2018 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Jofwu he/him]

On 2/21/2018 at 11:45 AM, Alderant said:

It’s interesting to contrast the way Shallan speaks to Jasnah or the king with the way she speaks to Yalb or Tozbek in chapter 3.

Yeah, I'm not sure this says a whole lot. The first two are, respectively, the princess of a powerful nation whose wardship she is trying to gain and the king of the nation she's currently standing in. Most people are going to treat them differently.

On 2/21/2018 at 11:45 AM, Alderant said:

However, this sharp wit does not appear to be out of insult or desire to cut down an opponent, as another might have reacted. Instead, this appears to be more of a razored extension of her humor.

I think this becomes really important later on with Kaladin. There are a lot of times that Kaladin thinks she can be downright mean, and maybe she is. But I don't think she intends to be. There's just a communication disconnect between them. Probably more Shallan's fault in my opinion. She doesn't seem to have the awareness to see when her "humor" is doing more harm than good. Or perhaps the self control to put a lid on it unless someone calls her out on it like Jasnah does here.

On 2/21/2018 at 11:45 AM, Alderant said:

These quotes, nor the fact that she tries to assert to Jasnah that she hasn’t finished her assessment of Shallan, do not indicate the timid, frightful girl she believes herself to be.

Not an expert on abuse, but I imagine this is a direct result of identity issues having lived under an abusive father.

On 2/21/2018 at 11:45 AM, Alderant said:

On Shallan’s judgemental nature

I want to say there are several other examples of this in chapter 8.

On 2/21/2018 at 11:45 AM, Alderant said:

Her Vorin beliefs have led her to be critical of non-Vorin ideas, and this is likely the result of a sheltered upbringing.

Shallan's devotion to her religion is really interesting to me, though Sanderson never seems to really dig into it. It's just sort of part of who she is. She comes across as more religious than most people we know in Stormlight. She frequently prays, often as a first instinct to things both bad and good. And it doesn't seem to be rote, as we see later. Her defense of Vorinism in part 3, for example, doesn't strike me as memorized rhetoric. It's personal to her. Which is not what I'd imagine given her upbringing. I'm really curious how she got that way, and how it played into her childhood. It was mostly glossed over in her flashbacks. I'm also really curious to see how her faith evolves in books 4/5 now that she clearly sees some holes in Vorin theology. I am more inclined to think her faith will evolve rather than fizzle out. Perhaps she will be an important link in bringing together Vorin leaders and the new Radiants, or perhaps she'll play an interesting role in a new offshoot of traditional Vorinism.

But we're in TWoK chapter 5 still. I'm getting way ahead of myself now.

[Alderant she/her]

21 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Yeah, I'm not sure this says a whole lot. The first two are, respectively, the princess of a powerful nation whose wardship she is trying to gain and the king of the nation she's currently standing in. Most people are going to treat them differently.

Yeah, I mostly wanted to note this because I think there might be something later, and this early on pretty much anything could be something defining. @Fifth of Daybreak pointed this out as well, so whether or not this is actually a character trait or something I just noticed remains to be seen, but I'm hoping most of these points are things that can be built upon later on in the series.

22 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

I think this becomes really important later on with Kaladin. There are a lot of times that Kaladin thinks she can be downright mean, and maybe she is. But I don't think she intends to be. There's just a communication disconnect between them. Probably more Shallan's fault in my opinion. She doesn't seem to have the awareness to see when her "humor" is doing more harm than good. Or perhaps the self control to put a lid on it unless someone calls her out on it like Jasnah does here.

At this point I'm inclined to say it's a self-control issue.

23 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Not an expert on abuse, but I imagine this is a direct result of identity issues having lived under an abusive father.

Yes and no, and I'm expecting to really get into this in WoR, but I'm reading chapters 7 & 8 right now, and there's an indication that she lies to herself on this point, but that will be in the analysis of those two chapters.

25 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

I want to say there are several other examples of this in chapter 8.

Noted. I'll be on the lookout.

25 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Shallan's devotion to her religion is really interesting to me, though Sanderson never seems to really dig into it. It's just sort of part of who she is. She comes across as more religious than most people we know in Stormlight. She frequently prays, often as a first instinct to things both bad and good. And it doesn't seem to be rote, as we see later. Her defense of Vorinism in part 3, for example, doesn't strike me as memorized rhetoric. It's personal to her. Which is not what I'd imagine given her upbringing. I'm really curious how she got that way, and how it played into her childhood. It was mostly glossed over in her flashbacks. I'm also really curious to see how her faith evolves in books 4/5 now that she clearly sees some holes in Vorin theology. I am more inclined to think her faith will evolve rather than fizzle out. Perhaps she will be an important link in bringing together Vorin leaders and the new Radiants, or perhaps she'll play an interesting role in a new offshoot of traditional Vorinism.

Interesting points. As you said, this is only the second chapter, so it will be interesting to see how this all develops.

Thanks for your participation!

[Jofwu he/him]

4 minutes ago, Alderant said:

31 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Not an expert on abuse, but I imagine this is a direct result of identity issues having lived under an abusive father.

Yes and no, and I'm expecting to really get into this in WoR, but I'm reading chapters 7 & 8 right now, and there's an indication that she lies to herself on this point, but that will be in the analysis of those two chapters.

Oh, I didn't mean in the sense that she's lying to herself. I just think she has really low self-esteem. I guess on my first read of TWoK I just assumed she simply didn't think very highly of herself. Now I'd say it's probably the abuse that made her this way rather than the nature she was born with.

[Alderant she/her]

16 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Oh, I didn't mean in the sense that she's lying to herself. I just think she has really low self-esteem. I guess on my first read of TWoK I just assumed she simply didn't think very highly of herself. Now I'd say it's probably the abuse that made her this way rather than the nature she was born with.

Ah. I think I see where you're coming from, and you may have a point. I've only recently started considering the effect Lin Davar had on Shallan. I'll add this to my notes of things to look for.

[BraidedRose]

5 hours ago, Jofwu said:

Shallan's devotion to her religion is really interesting to me, though Sanderson never seems to really dig into it. It's just sort of part of who she is. She comes across as more religious than most people we know in Stormlight. She frequently prays, often as a first instinct to things both bad and good. And it doesn't seem to be rote, as we see later. Her defense of Vorinism in part 3, for example, doesn't strike me as memorized rhetoric. It's personal to her. Which is not what I'd imagine given her upbringing. I'm really curious how she got that way, and how it played into her childhood. It was mostly glossed over in her flashbacks. I'm also really curious to see how her faith evolves in books 4/5 now that she clearly sees some holes in Vorin theology. I am more inclined to think her faith will evolve rather than fizzle out. Perhaps she will be an important link in bringing together Vorin leaders and the new Radiants, or perhaps she'll play an interesting role in a new offshoot of traditional Vorinism.

But we're in TWoK chapter 5 still. I'm getting way ahead of myself now.

This analysis has actually reminded me of how devout Shallan was at the beginning. There seemed to be a lot less emphasis on that aspect of her character in OB although the only specific example I can think of now is her forgetting to burn a prayer before her wedding. I'm wondering if there has been a gradual lessening of her religious devotion as she has gotten out in the world or if all the fracturing that was happening with her personality in OB is just obscuring her faith. Another thought I had was that Brandon partially played up Shallan's faith in the beginning as a contrast to Jasnah. It will be interesting to see if Alderant is able to notice a change prior to OB but it is noticeable to me at least from the start of WoK to the end of OB.

[Jofwu he/him]

54 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

It will be interesting to see if Alderant is able to notice a change prior to OB but it is noticeable to me at least from the start of WoK to the end of OB.

It will be interesting to see. I didn't get that impression from OB. I actually have one memory where she did something religious amidst Dalinar doing or saying something blasphemous. It stood out to me as notable that she was doing this while still acknowledging (to some extent) the truth of what Dalinar was saying. (unlike the ardentia, who just deny everything) OBs also a little weird considering she spends so much time as Veil, who is basically an atheist. But it's entirely possible I'm superimposing my view from previous books on her and missed a change that is indeed present. And I don't mean to steer conversation away from the present. Sorry.

[Greywatch she/her]

She seems to me to be something of a religious moderate - the religion being something that she does believe in (or considers herself to believe in), but not something that she's necessarily always thinking about - just a part of her world's foundations. When confronted more with Jasnah's atheism, it doesn't seem like her beliefs are really affected, but more she reacts to it as a shake-up of "how things should be".

 

I have lots to say about Shallan's treatment of those of lower social status, but it could/should wait until we're further along.

[Vissy]

Agreed @Greywatch , now to await the next chapter analysis  (and for me, I think I'll try a concurrent re-read of the books to keep pace with Alderant... mostly as bedtime reading though)

[Alderant she/her]

3 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I have lots to say about Shallan's treatment of those of lower social status, but it could/should wait until we're further along.

Looking forward to your thoughts!

[Vissy]

I feel like this thread needs a bump 

[BraidedRose]

4 hours ago, Vissy said:

I feel like this thread needs a bump 

Alderant is working on some chapters so there should be more to discuss soon 

[wotbibliophile]

On 2/21/2018 at 8:45 AM, Alderant said:

“She hated being duplicitous”

I thought this was really strange until I remembered Shallan goes to wildly elaborate lengths to claim she is being truthful. A few instances come to mind. In WOR, when she is drawing people and seems to transform them. She says something like if you changed this person's history, if you changed all the choices they made, if you had a totally different person then this would be the truth. "it wasn't a lie, it was a different truth." This makes me think of "alternative facts." I think this is when she drew herself.

Another time is when she is on her date with Adolin she is interested in going out on the shattered plains to research Urithiru but she makes out that she is interested in the chasmfiends and says to herself that it really was interesting so she wasn't lying.

In OB, when Jasnah tries to get Shallan to open up, Shallan thinks to herself that really it is Veil who is involved with the Ghostbloods, not her, so she doesn't have anything to confess to.

 

Shallan mixes lies and truth and so long as there is some truth to what she says she is satisfied that she is being truthful. The line "she hated being duplicitous" is in line with other things she says; a mix of lies and truth that ultimately has the flavor of a lie.

Notice that when she can't claim there is any truth in what she says, when even she acknowledges she is lying, she feels guilty.

@Alderant I love your highly detailed analysis.

[Alderant she/her]

I just wanted to thank everyone who has participated in this so far. Things happened in my life, both here and personally, that precluded me from being able to continue for a long while. I intend to start this up again soon, but I just wanted to take a moment to express the appreciation I feel for those who took the time to go along with me, and I hope you'll be willing to stick with me once again. I know I can be...inconsistent. It's a problem of my mental disorder that afflicts almost every aspect of my life, but...probably not today or this week, but soon you'll see me start updating this again. Thanks for your time and patience.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

@Alderant I just read through this myself. Don't worry about it, we all have things that go on in our lives that get in the way, so it's fine. 

[Draigon]

@Alderant Good to see you back. Take the time you need. I've enjoyed your character analysis here and in other threads.

[Vissy]

@Alderant I enjoyed re-reading the series critically with you, and reading and commenting on your analysis. I look forward to continuing when you pick it up again!

[Nymeros]

I...need a summary. Shallan is very well developed and interesting so it would be cool to see a full well structured analysis.

[Alderant she/her]

24 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

I...need a summary. Shallan is very well developed and interesting so it would be cool to see a full well structured analysis.

There will likely be a summary document per book, split up into parts developments. For now...you have to make do with what's there, sorry.

[animalia]

Any plans to update this?

[Alderant she/her]

15 hours ago, animalia said:

Any plans to update this?

TL;DR Yes. Hopefully soon.

Yes. Provided my rib goes the rest of the way back into place when I visit the chiropractor today, should be later this week. Had plans to do this last week, but this rib has put pretty much all of my personal projects on hiatus and spend my nights laying in bed playing Skyrim (I'm not being hyperbolic, literally laying in my bed and playing the one game I have on 360 is the only thing I've had the stamina to do after work).

I have to sit down and review my notes from the first two chapters and resettle my mind on the topic. It's been on hiatus due to life situations and difficulty of note-taking causing a serious lack of motivation (It took me about four hours to go through one chapter, much less make the coherent analysis), and the fact I was purely on audiobook wasn't helping because I'd have to listen, type, rewind, type, rewind, type, rewind until I got the quotes I wanted or could verify I'd heard the part correctly. Going forward, I intend to sit down with the physical book so that process is significantly easier.

Hopefully, if all goes well, I should have the next two Shallan chapters up around the same time since they occur back-to-back.

[animalia]

3 hours ago, Alderant said:

TL;DR Yes. Hopefully soon.

Yes. Provided my rib goes the rest of the way back into place when I visit the chiropractor today, should be later this week. Had plans to do this last week, but this rib has put pretty much all of my personal projects on hiatus and spend my nights laying in bed playing Skyrim (I'm not being hyperbolic, literally laying in my bed and playing the one game I have on 360 is the only thing I've had the stamina to do after work).

I have to sit down and review my notes from the first two chapters and resettle my mind on the topic. It's been on hiatus due to life situations and difficulty of note-taking causing a serious lack of motivation (It took me about four hours to go through one chapter, much less make the coherent analysis), and the fact I was purely on audiobook wasn't helping because I'd have to listen, type, rewind, type, rewind, type, rewind until I got the quotes I wanted or could verify I'd heard the part correctly. Going forward, I intend to sit down with the physical book so that process is significantly easier.

Hopefully, if all goes well, I should have the next two Shallan chapters up around the same time since they occur back-to-back.

ouchie