[OB] Honor betrayed Odium

[AIAndy]

Odium is usually depicted as the big bad and his Intent reduced to Hatred while Honor is considered good with all the positive connotation that word has and him helping humanity. I think this is intentional misleading by choice of name and their Intent is not limited to the word. Odium says that he is about passion and I am inclined to believe him. Honor is more about binding to an idea like an oath or a spren, less about this oath being good or honorable. While Odium is crafty and none of what he says should be taken as fact, we should not do the opposite either and discard everything because it is an evil corruptor saying it. Neither should everything Honor and/or the Stormfather says be taken as fact. Odium's splintering of Devotion and Dominion was not necessarily an evil act because we do not know how those shards were while alive and they did break a part of the original pact of the vessels.

What I miss about Odium's passions though is love, so what about if he once loved and was betrayed by that love, breaking him forever. Not love for a fellow shard but love for a people. When he came to Greater Roshan, he invested on Ashyn and became god to the humans there and fell in love with them. But Odium's touch is passion in excess and passionate use and abuse of investiture led to the great catastrophy that devastated Ashyn. Odium still loved his people though so he went to Roshan and asked Honor and Cultivation for a place for his people. But Honor claimed that the humans were unsafe with investiture so he demanded that Odium make a pact with Honor that he would make sure the humans would not get their hands on investiture, leave Shinovar or something similar. So the humans moved to Shinovar, isolated from the rest of Roshan and from the highstorms by the mountains, Odium's command and maybe a pact.

Honor on the other hand did not love his people, the singers and saw in the pact with Odium a chance to do what he was good at, binding him, into a prison. Maybe he was afraid, as Honor and Cultivation were in a similar position as Devotion and Dominion. So when discontent increased in the upper class of the humans about the lack of power from investiture and being isolated, Honor found 5 men and 5 women and lured them with promises of power and conquest to make the Oathpact, binding them to him and giving them access to investiture (SF I think claims the Oathpact was a reaction to the Fused but that does not make it fact). So Odium's beloved people betrayed him with the help of Honor, binding him to a prison consisting of the pact Odium made with Honor for the benefit of this people.

Odium's Passion broke, splintering Love away from him, the remnant now dominated by Hatred. Betrayed to the humans by their gods Honor and Cultivation, the singers were desperate as the first desolation swept over them, so they and Odium were natural allies. This started the cycle of desolations.

Well, most of this is not based in fact (and the exact wording of any pact as prize for Shinovar would matter a lot), the intention is just to show that perception matters and if you avoid seeing Odium as absolute evil and Honor as good, interesting interpretations open up.

[Calderis]

I don't think that Honor's intent would allow this. Breaking his word or pact is the antithesis of the intent itself. 

Edit: I fully agree though that neither shard is good or evil. 

The Vessels are the determining factor of what a Shard is, not the power. 

They are still constrained by their intent though.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Calderis

[RShara]

Also Odium's touch isn't Passion.  And the Shard itself doesn't contain any Love, since Love (Devotion) is a different Shard.  That he killed and Splintered.

 

As Cal said, Honor would be incapable of breaking an oath or a promise, just like Preservation was incapable of destroying.

 

Odium wasn't ever Invested on Ashyn that I know of.  He had something to do with destroying Ashyn and he arrived on Roshar at the same time as the humans, and some of the humans gave him an ear, but it doesn't sound like Odium was actually their god.

Quote

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

What was the order of the Shards coming to Roshar and changing allegiences? Did Humans come with Odium?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So... you're talking about on Roshar specifically? So, Odium had visited Roshar. The humans gave him more of an ear... The Dawnsingers would have considered him the god of the people who had come, but-- I mean, it wasn't like they necessarily brought him. He was capable of getting around before that. I mean, he did kinda come along with them, he was instrumental in what happened there.

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, but he was separate, and after Honor and Cultivation had really settled there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, he was after Honor and Cultivation had settled.

source

 

Edited February 6, 2018 by RShara

[SallyA]

16 minutes ago, AIAndy said:

Odium says that he is about passion and I am inclined to believe him. Honor is more about binding to an idea like an oath or a spren, less about this oath being good or honorable. While Odium is crafty and none of what he says should be taken as fact, we should not do the opposite either and discard everything because it is an evil corruptor saying it.

Bravo!

I see hints (from the moments when Dalinar wakes up under the influence of Odium in some dream/vision) . . . that he recognizes Odium on a subconscious level and feels a very positive reaction to the experience!  I do not discount the perspective of the Blackthorn.

The passion of a G^d is likely well beyond the threshold of his followers. .. still, it puts Odium into a class of beings who understand such things.  This is very germaine!  So I agree, Odium should not get such bad press from the git-go.

[1stBondsmith]

Hello, and Welcome to the Shard! Have an upvote for friendly relations, and a well thought out first post.

In the Way of Kings, the letter to and from Frost contained a section that stated that Rayse had " ... the Power of God's own hatred, without the context the other Intents gives it." (very close to that quote). Of all persons who would have knowledge of how the splintering of Adonalsium happened, I think Frost and Hoid are very believable sources. How is this passion? Frost could be mistaken about the Intent, because the personal context of the individuals who did the shattering determined how it broke. That could possibly mean that the Intent looked like Hatred to the other shards, and in reality might include more. But it seems to me that they would recognize passion in themselves, and thus be better judges than we of Rayse's remaining Intent.

However, I don't have a reason to disbelieve Odium either, except for his desire to conquer the ones he was talking to. Maybe deceit is not needed when you are a Shard. Ruin didn't seem to hide his purposes. I think we need more information on Odium's end goal on Roshar to decide if we want to believe him or not.

[Weltall]

First off, welcome to the Shard and great first post! I'm going to take a shardblade to its premise, but it was still a very nice bit of thinking.

As has been noted, it is (meta)physically impossible for a Shard to break an oath made with Intent (using Rayse's capitalization, not the sense of the driving mandate of a given Shard) for the reason that the Stormfather explains to Dalinar: Adonalsium's power permeates them and binds them to keep their oaths. It's even more impossible for Honor to betray an oath because that's diametrically opposed to the Intent of his Shard. Preservation can't destroy, Ruin can't create for creation's own sake, Honor can't betray.

Now, I do agree completely that there's wiggle-room in the nature of the Intents and I have no doubt that it's going to be an ongoing factor, but not like this.

20 minutes ago, SallyA said:

The passion of a G^d is likely well beyond the threshold of his followers. .. still, it puts Odium into a class of beings who understand such things.  This is very germaine!  So I agree, Odium should not get such bad press from the git-go.

Odium has murdered at least three other Shards and while he might argue that going after Devotion and Dominion was because they violated some unspecified agreement about staying apart, he can't use that excuse for targeting Ambition and per Word of Brandon she was first on his hit list. And one of the Shards he killed embodies the idea of love/compassion. So yeah, Odium does indeed appear to deserve his reputation even if we didn't have WoBs on the subject. Or in-universe characters holding similar opinions, chiefly Hoid, Frost and Khriss.

4 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said:

How is this passion? Frost could be mistaken about the Intent, because the personal context of the individuals who did the shattering determined how it broke. That could possibly mean that the Intent looked like Hatred to the other shards, and in reality might include more. But it seems to me that they would recognize passion in themselves, and thus be better judges than we of Rayse's remaining Intent.

However, I don't have a reason to disbelieve Odium either, except for his desire to conquer the ones he was talking to. Maybe deceit is not needed when you are a Shard. Ruin didn't seem to hide his purposes. I think we need more information on Odium's end goal on Roshar to decide if we want to believe him or not.

Odium is deliberately keeping the whole 'I've picked you as my Champion' thing from Dalinar while subtly trying to manipulate him, so I'm perfectly happy to take anything he says in that exchange wiith a pinch of salt. The difference between Rayse and Ati vis a vis lying probably has something to do with the latter being 1) completely certain he was going to win, so it didn't matter and 2) thoroughly twisted by his Shard so he's not really capable of thinking beyond it. Though he is still capable of deception, see how he manipulates Vin and Spook for example. Rayse is noted by Brandon to be a very good match for Odium and he seems to have his original personality intact, so he's probably better at deceit in general. We also know that Harmony can lie.

Oh, and on that note we do have some evidence from Oathbringer that Frost can be wrong. He thinks (per the WoR letter) that Rayse is now more a force than an individual, contrary to Hoid's assertion. OB seems to validate Hoid's take on it, that Rayse is indeed still in control. We don't have much reason to believe that Frost is wrong in his assessment of what Odium's Intent is however. Brandon's also said that he originally planned to call that Shard 'Hatred' for what that's worth. I suspect that wherever the name Odium came from in-universe, they were right on the money and Odium's whole spiel about how he's really the power of Passion is self-serving and more a side-effect of his power than the main focus of it.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Weltall

[SallyA]

8 minutes ago, Weltall said:

So yeah, Odium does indeed appear to deserve his reputation even if we didn't have WoBs on the subject. Or in-universe characters holding similar opinions, chiefly Hoid, Frost and Khriss.

Ah, this is in books I have not read yet!

Please -- direct me toward the proper reding materials.

Most importantly, what caused the creation of the 16 shards -- which book?

I suppose .. also .. that Odium might appeal subconsciously to a person as positive in a stressed dream state, not inlike The Thrill introduces itself to all the combatants before a battle ... all are afraid and the Thrill appears like a helping hand.

Just wondering, is it known how many of the Shards are dead, now?

Also, a shardblade which embodied love/compassion?

Does compassion come from Cultivation?  Still corals and pollins and most animals do not bond or seek love with passion.  They are at the service of structure and the ordered Universe.

I reserve the right to re-argue this from a standpoint of levels, but since I am missing much of the information, I yield to your argument... (maybe I am biased, I like sunshine, Odium seems to be "like" sunshine).

Thank you for the heads up!

[SallyA]

I did find this ...  it seems I have A LOT to read!

interesting . . humans vs listeners ... spren choosing sides . . Theory: The Listeners are the Pre-Shattering native inhabitants of Roshar (WoR Spoilers)

[Weltall]

30 minutes ago, SallyA said:

Ah, this is in books I have not read yet!

Please -- direct me toward the proper reding materials.

Most importantly, what caused the creation of the 16 shards -- which book?

We don't know the details and won't until Brandon writes Dragonsteel, which is planned to be the Big Backstory Series and won't be worked on until after Stormlight Archive is finished. What we know so far comes mainly from things Brandon has said outside the books, though some of the stuff has started appearing in published works as well. Have a look at Mistborn Secret History for the most direct in-book statements about the Shattering of Adonalsium and the creation of the Shards. I'm not sure where you are in reading the Mistborn series so just in case, I'll warn you to not read Secret History until you have at least finished the original Mistborn trilogy because of spoilers, though reading it after finishing all six currently available novels would be best.

Quote

Just wondering, is it known how many of the Shards are dead, now?

Also, a shardblade which embodied love/compassion?

Does compassion come from Cultivation?  Still corals and pollins and most animals do not bond or seek love with passion.  They are at the service of structure and the ordered Universe.

We know that Odium has killed four Shards (for a given value of 'killed' at least, the power is still there in each case but not in a single coherent form) but we don't know exactly how many there are total which have been splintered or are otherwise 'not whole'. Brandon has said he doesn't want to canonize this just yet and it also gets into terminology questions as there are different ways a Shard could be splintered. There are currently six 'unknown Shards' and the only things we know about them are tantalizing and context-free hints that Brandon has mentioned outside the books.

You could theoretically make a shardblade using Devotion's Investiture. Brandon has said that seons (and their Dominion equivalents the skaze) would act similarly to a spren bond though it would take some work to actually pull off and the system isn't inherently designed for it. In terms of 'embodying love' it might help to remember that when it comes to the magic systems, the Intents of the Shards generally have more to do with how you get access to the magic rather than what you can do with the magic, so there isn't a contradiction there.

On the underlying nature of the universe and how it relates to the Shards, here's a helpful and very recent statement from Brandon: The spoiler tag is just for length

Spoiler

Quote

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Weltall

[The One Who Connects]

26 minutes ago, SallyA said:

Most importantly, what caused the creation of the 16 shards -- which book?

The Shattering will occur in Dragonsteel, which has yet to be properly written.

26 minutes ago, SallyA said:

Just wondering, is it known how many of the Shards are dead, now?

About half-ish. But these entries are.. a little vague.

26 minutes ago, SallyA said:

Also, a shardblade which embodied love/compassion?

Not Shardblade, but "Shard." Brandon considered calling Devotion "Love," but changed it to a synonym.

[SallyA]

Dragonsteel . . Oh my, now it begins to fall together!

Thank you! The one who Connects ...

 

AAnd thank you too, Weltall! ...Mistborn Secret History ... next up!

 

[RShara]

We know that Ambition, Devotion, Dominion, and Honor are Splintered. Uh... spoilers for Mistborn

Spoiler

Ruin and Preservation are combined into Harmony

So at least 4 (or 5) out of 16 (or 15).  That's....kinda close to halfish? lol

[Willshaping Crasher]

10 hours ago, RShara said:

Also Odium's touch isn't Passion.

Don't mean to pick on you RShara. I am just grabbing the whole "passion" reference from seeing it from several people.  I know you don't agree.

My thought on this is that perhaps Sanderson is using the archaic meaning of the word.  Passion originally referred to suffering.  The Latin root I believe is Passio.

 

[WhiteLeeopard]

Its a well thought out idea, so have an upvote and a cookie as welcome to the Shard . 

I don't think Honor betrayed Odium like you say, for several reasons. Honor can't break oaths is a big one. We know Odium has been splintering Shards, and that was always his list of to dos since the breaking of Adonalsium. Finally Odium only cares about humans as a 2nd or 3rd point of his priorities. But the idea was not bad, and there are always twists upon twists in these books, so you never know what you may find.

[RShara]

7 hours ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

Don't mean to pick on you RShara. I am just grabbing the whole "passion" reference from seeing it from several people.  I know you don't agree.

My thought on this is that perhaps Sanderson is using the archaic meaning of the word.  Passion originally referred to suffering.  The Latin root I believe is Passio.

 

I would be okay with that definition.

[Leyrann]

11 hours ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

Don't mean to pick on you RShara. I am just grabbing the whole "passion" reference from seeing it from several people.  I know you don't agree.

Jury's still out on the whole passion thing. I do believe that most of the forum veterans, so to say, don't buy it, but there's also plenty of people around that do (me included). I don't think there's enough to conclusively rule out one or the other (I actually discussed this with R'Shara just yesterday, though I'm pretty sure we do agree on this point as well ).

3 hours ago, RShara said:

I would be okay with that definition.

That makes me think... I'm gonna move this over to the thread of my Shard theory as it's a more appropriate place to discuss this.

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, RShara said:

I would be okay with that definition.

I wouldn't, for part of the reason I don't buy the passion argument. 

Both passion and suffering do not inherently provoke hate in others. 

[AIAndy]

On 6.2.2018 at 11:23 PM, Calderis said:

I don't think that Honor's intent would allow this. Breaking his word or pact is the antithesis of the intent itself. 

Edit: I fully agree though that neither shard is good or evil. 

The Vessels are the determining factor of what a Shard is, not the power. 

They are still constrained by their intent though.

Yes, he and most likely any shard cannot break a pact but then the betrayal I mention in the topic is a bit misleading. It was not meant as betraying a pact directly but instead betraying the trust in acting honorable about the pact by actively looking to use the pact to bind Odium by causing the humans to betray their god (which humans can do perfectly fine).

On 6.2.2018 at 11:38 PM, RShara said:

Odium wasn't ever Invested on Ashyn that I know of.  He had something to do with destroying Ashyn and he arrived on Roshar at the same time as the humans, and some of the humans gave him an ear, but it doesn't sound like Odium was actually their god.

 

Destruction on that level likely requires a lot of investiture and Odium at least is an investiture source that was there at some point so I don't think it is too unlikely that he was invested there, at least for a while.

On 6.2.2018 at 11:59 PM, 1stBondsmith said:

Hello, and Welcome to the Shard! Have an upvote for friendly relations, and a well thought out first post.

In the Way of Kings, the letter to and from Frost contained a section that stated that Rayse had " ... the Power of God's own hatred, without the context the other Intents gives it." (very close to that quote). Of all persons who would have knowledge of how the splintering of Adonalsium happened, I think Frost and Hoid are very believable sources. How is this passion? Frost could be mistaken about the Intent, because the personal context of the individuals who did the shattering determined how it broke. That could possibly mean that the Intent looked like Hatred to the other shards, and in reality might include more. But it seems to me that they would recognize passion in themselves, and thus be better judges than we of Rayse's remaining Intent.

However, I don't have a reason to disbelieve Odium either, except for his desire to conquer the ones he was talking to. Maybe deceit is not needed when you are a Shard. Ruin didn't seem to hide his purposes. I think we need more information on Odium's end goal on Roshar to decide if we want to believe him or not.

Do we have any source that he was named Odium directly after the splintering of Adonalsium? Frost says he is Hatred now but that does not rule out that he was broken and was Passion before. That poses the question though where the piece that was splintered off ended up.

[Willshaping Crasher]

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

I wouldn't, for part of the reason I don't buy the passion argument. 

Both passion and suffering do not inherently provoke hate in others.

I am not necessarily on board with the "Passion pushers" either, but have no Fear

The discussion concerning this concept is no reason for Anger.

I agree with you in principle.  Sanderson has made it quite clear that Odium is the shard of Hate.

However, Much like Rayse asks Dalinar to give him his pain, it is claer that the removal of pain also does not provoke hate in others.  In addition, Odium's everstorm provides voidlight, which as Moash felt, is filled with "Passion": i.e.  Suffering.

..........aaaaaaaaaaand you just got Yoda'd

/sarc

[Weltall]

'Getting Yoda'd' could now become a euphamism for being trolled.

Spoiler

What with his showing up in The Last Jedi to troll the hell out of Luke

18 hours ago, AIAndy said:

Do we have any source that he was named Odium directly after the splintering of Adonalsium? Frost says he is Hatred now but that does not rule out that he was broken and was Passion before. That poses the question though where the piece that was splintered off ended up.

Frost doesn't just say that, he says that Rayse wanted to become 'hatred'. So I'm skeptical that he started as something else and then changed, especially as all the evidence we have says that Intents Do Not Work That Way. If a Shard can be splintered entirely and still keep its Intent, it's hard to imagine knocking a chunk of power off of an intact Shard (however big a chunk) would have that kind of effect.

Quote

He bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become.

 

[recneps]

I must say.. Honour orchestrating a betrayal in effect, not just of direct Exact Words oaths, violates his Intent very severely. All of the Shards had to obey some rules, like obeying firm contracts.. As was mentioned to Dalinar when suggesting he prompt Odium into sending a champion. And so if it applies for all Shards.. It must apply in essence, not just in name, for Honour.

[SallyA]

Where can I read about the splintering of Adonalsium?  Which book?

TIA .. :-)

[Calderis]

18 minutes ago, SallyA said:

Where can I read about the splintering of Adonalsium?  Which book?

TIA .. :-)

The Shattering is something we're aware of through hints in book, and WoBs. The story itself is yet to be written. 

This will occur when Brandon writes Dragonsteel. After SA is completed.