[OB spoilers] Is Maya alive?

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, CrazyRioter said:

Shipping is a highly subjective thing. I think this is much less subjective.

Also Brandon is very careful and meticulous with his magic systems, if he feels the need to point out something related to the magic that's very significant.

You made a literary argument about how the text was pointing out something the author wanted readers to particularly pay attention to.  ("It's interesting to note that both times the text explicitly notes the ten heartbeats. This implies he was paying attention, and also that the readers are supposed to be paying attention.")  That kind of argument can apply to any plotline, whether it is related to relationships or magic systems.  Literary devices are literary devices.  Don't make an argument based on literary devices and then say that can only be used to support the plotlines which you think are important and/or valid.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Dreamstorm

[Alderant she/her]

40 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Alright. I've dug through damnation near every Wob in Arcanum that contains the word Shardblade. 

I've found nothing that pertains to the deadeyes level of awareness or ability to feel pain that hasn't already come up in this thread. So again it looks like a point that we'll be content disagreeing with each other here. 

Before I address points that I overlooked through lack of time earlier, there is a WoB pertaining to Adolin and the blade that I hadn't seen before that I don't think lends any more weight in either direction. 

Note Brandon basically saying keep doing what we're doing. 

Alright, the two points that I skipped over earlier due to lack of time. 

I remember him speaking specifically about Oathbringer and the screaming being less because it remembered him. I don't see how that has much bearing personally, as a bond is spiritual and exists outside of time as we normally perceive it. Just as Syl was aware of Kaladin's past before she bonded him, I don't see why blade that was bonded for decades wouldn't be aware on a  instinctual level of the person it was bonded to when it is given cognizance. 

As to the WoB, I'll repost for completeness sake. 

I don't see how this conflicts with my viewpoint.

"they still have consciousness, some of them. To an extent."

So only some have consciousness, and only to an extent. And that's why the screaming happens.

This seems to imply that blades with consciousness scream, and the screaming only happens when a blade is in physical contact with a Radiant.

My big issue is with the fact that you contradict the explicit text when you assert that unless they are being touched by a Radiant, they are unaware. The conversation with Dalinar, quoted below, says that Oathbringer remembers Dalinar when it was won, and when it was given up. See here (I've bolded the relevant part):

Quote

“Calm yourself,” Dalinar whispered. “I’m not going to bond it.”

The Stormfather rumbled, low and dangerous.

“This one doesn’t scream as loudly as others. Why?”

It remembers your oath, the Stormfather sent. It remembers the day you won it, and better the day you gave it up. It hates you—but less than it hates others.

Obviously, the day Dalinar won it was well before he became a radiant. This implies a level of consciousness on the part of the deadeye prior to being touched by a Radiant, and the fact that Maya jerks unnaturally toward Adolin when he tries to summon her, then screams at him, seems to me to be an indicator that hearing the screaming has to less to do with the Radiant, as much as the summoning itself, and that the Radiant is more of a conduit. I digress though, I don't want to hijack the thread and don't want to cause an argument. I think I understand where you're coming from, even if I don't agree.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

Contrary to what I say above, Brandon did just confirm that in the case of Evi's necklace nothing is being foreshadowed, so not everything means something.  (The WoB was quoted earlier in this thread and can be found here.) 

But he did say Adolin talking to his Blade does mean something. We can't dispute this. He specifically said the necklace was insignificant, but not the Blade talking thing-y.

1 hour ago, CrazyRioter said:

Shipping is a highly subjective thing. I think this is much less subjective.

Also Brandon is very careful and meticulous with his magic systems, if he feels the need to point out something related to the magic that's very significant.

I agree with @CrazyRioter. While not every single little detail will turn out to be significant, such as Adolin being born under the sign of nine, whenever Brandon is offering precision with respect to magical elements, then surely it means something. Hence, the fact Brandon explicitly had Adolin count his heartbeats, repetitively, have him plea Maya to come before the required ten and have her do it, then I feel we have left the ground of the subjective and move into the objective. 

I also do not agree the discussion is akin to shipping: shipping relies a lot on the subjective, on how a given reader interpret a given snippet of textual whereas in the case at hand, the textual is very clear. Adolin does summon Maya in less than 10 heartbeats and it is written as if it were a "not ordinary" event. What exactly has happened remains open for discussion, but the fact remains something did happen.

2 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

You made a literary argument about how the text was pointing out something the author wanted readers to particularly pay attention to.  ("It's interesting to note that both times the text explicitly notes the ten heartbeats. This implies he was paying attention, and also that the readers are supposed to be paying attention.")  That kind of argument can apply to any plotline, whether it is related to relationships or magic systems.  Literary devices are literary devices.  Don't make an argument based on literary devices and then say that can only be used to support the plotlines which you think are important and/or valid.

Yes and no. Adolin summoning Maya is something which is explicitly stated. Shallan supposedly having repressed feelings for Kaladin, as an example, is an interpretation some readers have of the narrative: it is never explicitly stated. It is not a fact, it is an interpretation. It is however explicitly stated Adolin does hear Maya's name and does summon her faster than usually required. It is also stated he hears her brushing through his mind.

What happened cannot be debated. What it means, how it works and why, can, but not the fact it did happen. On the reverse, when it comes to relationships, a lot is left to interpretation, not a lot is actually factual.

4 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Obviously, the day Dalinar won it was well before he became a radiant. This implies a level of consciousness on the part of the deadeye prior to being touched by a Radiant, and the fact that Maya jerks unnaturally toward Adolin when he tries to summon her, then screams at him, seems to me to be an indicator that hearing the screaming has to less to do with the Radiant, as much as the summoning itself, and that the Radiant is more of a conduit. I digress though, I don't want to hijack the thread and don't want to cause an argument. I think I understand where you're coming from, even if I don't agree.

There is actually a WoB, somewhere, which states dead-Blades do have some conscience of the physical world. It is also stated, if wielded long enough, they would alter slightly their physical appearances. I would thus argue Maya must have been aware of Adolin, at some level, but no dead-Blade has been known to act upon this consciousness before.

[Alderant she/her]

13 minutes ago, maxal said:

Shallan supposedly having repressed feelings for Kaladin, as an example, is an interpretation some readers have of the narrative: it is never explicitly stated. It is not a fact, it is an interpretation. It is however explicitly stated Adolin does hear Maya's name and does summon her faster than usually required. It is also stated he hears her brushing through his mind.

What happened cannot be debated. What it means, how it works and why, can, but not the fact it did happen. On the reverse, when it comes to relationships, a lot is left to interpretation, not a lot is actually factual.

Maxal dear, I don't think you're intending to be as abrasive as you're sounding here. This is kind of coming across as an attack, rather than the example you're trying to use. (I'm not trying to be patronizing--I'm really sorry if it comes across that way)

14 minutes ago, maxal said:

There is actually a WoB, somewhere, which states dead-Blades do have some conscience of the physical world. It is also stated, if wielded long enough, they would alter slightly their physical appearances. I would thus argue Maya must have been aware of Adolin, at some level, but no dead-Blade has been known to act upon this consciousness before.

I'm confused. Are we rehashing this argument?

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, Alderant said:

My big issue is with the fact that you contradict the explicit text when you assert that unless they are being touched by a Radiant, they are unaware. The conversation with Dalinar, quoted below, says that Oathbringer remembers Dalinar when it was won, and when it was given up. See here (I've bolded the relevant part):

Obviously, the day Dalinar won it was well before he became a radiant. This implies a level of consciousness on the part of the deadeye prior to being touched by a Radiant, and the fact that Maya jerks unnaturally toward Adolin when he tries to summon her, then screams at him, seems to me to be an indicator that hearing the screaming has to less to do with the Radiant, as much as the summoning itself, and that the Radiant is more of a conduit. I digress though, I don't want to hijack the thread and don't want to cause an argument. I think I understand where you're coming from, even if I don't agree.

I don't see it as a contradiction. It's no more contradictory than Syl having memories of Kaladin's childhood before they were bonded. Because she is connected to his soul. 

The blades are bonded to a person spiritually. Even if they are mindless they are still present for those events and the connections to them would be imprinted on their spiritweb. When their cognizance is returned to them, the events will as well.

[Alderant she/her]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I don't see it as a contradiction. It's no more contradictory than Syl having memories of Kaladin's childhood before they were bonded. Because she is connected to his soul. 

The blades are bonded to a person spiritually. Even if they are mindless they are still present for those events and the connections to them would be imprinted on their spiritweb. When their cognizance is returned to them, the events will as well.

Okay. Solid. I get where you're coming from. I don't agree, but I can understand why you think the way you do. Thanks for clarifying.

[Guest]

22 hours ago, Alderant said:

Maxal dear, I don't think you're intending to be as abrasive as you're sounding here. This is kind of coming across as an attack, rather than the example you're trying to use. (I'm not trying to be patronizing--I'm really sorry if it comes across that way)

Abrasive? Oh. I didn't mean to sound abrasive... I just think some discussions are more suggestive than others. Shipping is highly subjective whereas whether or not Maya told Adolin her name isn't. Whichever conclusions we make of the event remains however very suggestive. Both discussions have their merits and their downfalls, I do enjoy both, but I disagree they are the same.

I apologize if my post was offending. I'll admit my work is causing my a lot of stress these days, my thoughts might have come out wrong.

22 hours ago, Alderant said:

I'm confused. Are we rehashing this argument?

I was just saying we have WoB which does state the dead-Blades do have some conscience. Now, we do not know what it means nor the extend of this conscience, but we know there is something. It is all I meant to say.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

I agree that shipping is one of the most subjective things out there when it comes to people finding support in the text for their ship by reading into subtext.

But we aren't talking about subtext here, we are talking about literally what the text says. The text literally notes the ten heartbeats the first two times he summons her, and then notes that she comes at seven the third time.

You can claim that the text is being deliberately misleading due to the character being wrong but you can't claim it's being ambiguous here.

[Jofwu he/him]

10 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I agree that shipping is one of the most subjective things out there when it comes to people finding support in the text for their ship by reading into subtext.

But we aren't talking about subtext here, we are talking about literally what the text says. The text literally notes the ten heartbeats the first two times he summons her, and then notes that she comes at seven the third time.

You can claim that the text is being deliberately misleading due to the character being wrong but you can't claim it's being ambiguous here.

That's not what Dreamstorm was criticizing though? She even agreed with your interpretation, if I'm not mistaken.You made an argument that Brandon pointed out 10 heartbeats the first two times to make the reader pay attention. That's subtext.

It's entirely possible that there's an alternate reason for that than the one you're assuming. And that's to say nothing about the interpretation of what the difference between 10 and 7 means for the relationship between Adolin and Maya.

And not to get off topic, but I think we should be a bit careful in generalizing shipping conversations. As this fantastic topic digs into, I think some of them can be just as "serious" as magic theorizing. And even theorizing leaves room for interpretation. If not then there would be little to talk about.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Jofwu

[Narcoleptic Axolotl he/him]

On 3/7/2018 at 0:03 PM, Calderis said:

The issue there, is that had Dalinar not been a Radiant, Oathbringer would never have been "alive" enough to recognize the good in him. The screaming doesn't happen unless they're touched by someone with a Nahel bond. 

For most dead blades, they aren't alive enough to think about the human their bonded too, let alone recognize the difference between the ways they act. 

Are you saying then, that you think Adolin will be a radiant soon too?

[Dreamstorm]

12 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I agree that shipping is one of the most subjective things out there when it comes to people finding support in the text for their ship by reading into subtext.

But we aren't talking about subtext here, we are talking about literally what the text says. The text literally notes the ten heartbeats the first two times he summons her, and then notes that she comes at seven the third time.

You can claim that the text is being deliberately misleading due to the character being wrong but you can't claim it's being ambiguous here.

Thanks, @Jofwu, that was exactly my point.  I actually agree with CrazyRioter's interpretation of the subtext (regarding the 10 heartbeats), but interpretations that utilize subtext tend to get shot down a lot around here, which was my original point.  Now.... since we're on the subject of subjectivity, it seems to be on topic why some interpretations of subtext go ignored while others are seen as valid.  Much of that seems to center around how people feel about Adolin.  For whatever reason, he seems to make objectivity go out the window when people are looking for interpretations of text.  (Well, I can guess the reason, he is a dreamy-looking, rich prince after all so I can certainly see the appeal )  

Take the scene I quoted below, where Adolin saves a child in Thaylen City.  The text on the page is simple: Adolin is trying to pursue the thunderclast, hears a whimper, grits his teeth, wishes a Radiant was around, hauls the child away and shoves the child at a soldier.  Yet, this scene gets used to prove Adolin is just an incredible person (never mind that gritting ones teeth is a sign of irritation, his first thought is that he wishes a Radiant would handle it, and he unceremoniously shoves the child to the nearest person) and/or that he's amazing Edgedancer material since this shows he is remembering the forgotten (never mind that that he didn't remember anyone - he wasn't looking for non-combatants - he just didn't leave a child to die.)  But the Adolin-favorable interpretation is seen as completely valid (if not a fact), along which the subtext that Brandon is clearly pointing at Adolin becoming an Edgedancer.

Quote

Adolin lost the last part as the monster swept its hand across the ground. He barely dodged, then threw himself through the doorway of a low building. Inside, he leaped over a few bedding pallets, pushed into the next room, then attacked the brick wall with Maya, cutting in four quick strikes. He slammed his shoulder against the wall, breaking through the hole. 

As he did, he heard a whimper from behind. 

Adolin gritted his teeth. I could use one of those storming Radiants about now. 

He ducked back into the building and flipped over a table, finding a young boy huddled underneath. That was the only person Adolin saw in the building. He hauled the boy out right as the thunderclast smashed a fist down through the roof. Dust billowing after him, Adolin shoved the child into the arms of a soldier, then pointed both toward the street to the south.

Ch. 120, The Spear That Would Not Break

Now, contrast that with some of the arguments you see (including above in this thread) arguing Shallan isn't attracted to Kaladin.  For whatever reason, Shalladin is seen unfavorably by this community (it seems a lot of this has to do with Adolin's counter-involvement, though I know there is a strong contingent of people who just hate romance plotlines.)  Take this scene below.  It seems pretty obvious that Shallan is very attracted to Kaladin in this moment based on the fact this is specifically what Adolin is observing in his thoughts (not to mention confirmed by Brandon that part of Shallan is in fact in love with Kaladin), but you will have people argue, oh no, it's not that Shallan is attracted to Kaladin, she just likes drawing him (never mind that she, um, doesn't actually draw him there.)  There's also interpretation based on subtext here.  Brandon established clear symbolism in Shallan's chapter with Wit that Shallan needs to be the "girl who stands up."  Here, not only does Shallan go from sitting with Adolin to standing when she hears Kaladin, but Adolin also specifically notes her change in posture so she "stood solidly on two feet", tying to the symbolism even more strongly.  But analyses such as these are seen as "more subjective" and "influenced by shipping emotions", whereas it's totally valid to read into the subtext (on an Adolin-involved plot) that Brandon is deliberately pointing out to the reader the 10-10-7 heartbeats thing.  I agree with you on the subtext of the heartbeat thing, as I've said before, but that's because I believe subtext should be taken into account for all plotlines in the book, not just plotlines which I personally want to occur. 

Quote

Just ahead of him, Shallan seemed to change. It was in her bearing, the way she stopped resting lightly on one foot, and stood solidly on two feet instead. The way her posture shifted. 

And the way that she seemed to melt upon seeing Kaladin, lips rising to a grin. Blushing, she adopted a fond—even eager—expression. 

Adolin breathed out slowly. He’d caught those glimpses from her before—and seen the sketches of Kaladin in her book—but looking at her now, he couldn’t deny what he was seeing. She was practically leering. 

“I need to draw that,” she said. But she just stood there instead, staring at him. 

Adolin sighed and made his way up onto the high deck.

Ch. 108, Honor's Path

 

[Alderant she/her]

14 hours ago, maxal said:

Abrasive? Oh. I didn't mean to sound abrasive... I just think some discussions are more suggestive than others. Shipping is highly subjective whereas whether or not Maya told Adolin her name isn't. Whichever conclusions we make of the event remains however very suggestive. Both discussions have their merits and their downfalls, I do enjoy both, but I disagree they are the same.

I apologize if my post was offending. I'll admit my work is causing my a lot of stress these days, my thoughts might have come out wrong.

I was just saying we have WoB which does state the dead-Blades do have some conscience. Now, we do not know what it means nor the extend of this conscience, but we know there is something. It is all I meant to say.

Gotcha. No worries. I just wasn't sure of your point in the last paragraph.

[Calderis he/him]

53 minutes ago, Narcoleptic Axolotl said:

Are you saying then, that you think Adolin will be a radiant soon too?

Soon, no. Radiant, yes.

As I've gone over numerous times in this thread, I believe from the evidence in the books and WoBs that the only thing that can restore the mind to a deadeye is a Nahel bond. Maya is healing, so a Nahel bond must be forming. Her status as a deadeye makes the finalization of that interesting, and I do agree that something more needs to happen, but her ability to think at all shows the healing process has begun. 

[Narcoleptic Axolotl he/him]

Okay. It makes sense, but we just don't have enough information on deadeyes to know how likely that is, if it's even possible.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

We have several WoBs that it's at least potentially possible.

[Rage_Fortress he/him]

Periodically throughout this post I've seen people saying that the condition of Maya is like a piece of her spiritweb being cracked. It makes me wonder if a spren could bond another spren.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

We have several WoBs that it's at least potentially possible.

And we have a WoB, that some deadeyes retain a certain degree of consciousness, possibly even to have primitive thought processes. Which would make even the assumption, that Maya really is healing moot, since she'd have retained some consciousness.

Look, @Narcoleptic Axolotl is right.

The theory, that a Nahel bond is forming right at this moment, is based on a variety of WoBs (as in soft evidence - that is subject to change) and complicated thinking patterns, hinging on multiple assumptions and variables. To truly validate this theory, we just don't have enough knowledge at this point.

Edited March 9, 2018 by SLNC

[CrazyRioter she/her]

@Narcoleptic Axolotl asked if it was possible to revive a dead spren, I answered the question.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

@Narcoleptic Axolotl asked if it was possible to revive a dead spren, I answered the question.

You're right. My bad. I thought his statement was related to the theory, that only a Nahel bond will heal Maya.

[Calderis he/him]

The only speculation I've seen on alternative means of a spren healing at this point, rely on assumptions that run counter to all evidence elsewhere in the Cosmere.

Perpendicularities do not heal. The faster summoning based on the new WoB based around distance is not the reason for that much shorter of a summoning, as the speed variance is based on distance and the speed of light and as Maya was in the immediate vicinity in both Kholinar and all instances of her being summoned in Thaylen city, distance is not the reason for the shorter summoning. 

Until such time as another possible means of her healing is proposed, I'll stand by the assertion that it's based on a Nahel bond. 

Attempting to say that Maya is not already healing is not interpreting the evidence differently, it's ignoring the evidence. I very well may be incorrect on the means that she is healing, but the shorter time frame for that summoning guarantees that something is happening. The speed of light means that Maya and Adolin could be on opposite sides of Roshar cognitively, and the summoning time would not be altered to that extent. 

Edited March 9, 2018 by Calderis

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

(never mind that gritting ones teeth is a sign of irritation, his first thought is that he wishes a Radiant would handle it, and he unceremoniously shoves the child to the nearest person)

I interpreted that as him being frustrated because he has to deal with defeating a thunderclast and evacuating civilians by himself, which is a lot even for a Shardbearer. His thought about the Radiant isn't necessarily for specifically dealing with the child; the child just illustrates to him the magnitude of his task and someone with surges would be really helpful in actually accomplishing it. The soldiers are the only help he does have, so he gives them whatever they can reasonably do that would help in, in this case making sure the child gets to safety. I think his irritation is just at the bad situation in general. 

[Greywatch she/her]

Quote

 

Take the scene I quoted below, where Adolin saves a child in Thaylen City.  The text on the page is simple: Adolin is trying to pursue the thunderclast, hears a whimper, grits his teeth, wishes a Radiant was around, hauls the child away and shoves the child at a soldier.  Yet, this scene gets used to prove Adolin is just an incredible person (never mind that gritting ones teeth is a sign of irritation, his first thought is that he wishes a Radiant would handle it, and he unceremoniously shoves the child to the nearest person) and/or that he's amazing Edgedancer material since this shows he is remembering the forgotten (never mind that that he didn't remember anyone - he wasn't looking for non-combatants - he just didn't leave a child to die.)  But the Adolin-favorable interpretation is seen as completely valid (if not a fact), along which the subtext that Brandon is clearly pointing at Adolin becoming an Edgedancer.

Oh, what the hey, I'll throw my hat in. 

There are many reasons people grit their teeth, and irritation is not the only one. People also grit their teeth when they're in pain, when experiencing anxiety or worry, when they're angry, when they're bracing themselves for something difficult or unpleasant. Irritation is one interpretation, but one needn't take it as the only one.

Wishing for a Radiant could mean he doesn't want to be doing what he's doing, but my reading is when someone without superpowers wishes for someone with superpowers to be around, he might be feeling inadequate and that he's feeling like he's not doing a good job. In my mind, this lines up well with the feelings of inadequacy that are a major part of his characterization in OB.

Making sure the child is safe and then not wanting to waste time before rejoining the battle where their side is already overwhelmed doesn't have to be a bad thing, either.

Personally, I don't have a huge stake in this one scene for Adolin's Radiant-ness, but even this little bit can be hugely subjective.

Speaking purely user to user, I'm going to admit I was a little upset to see positive arguments for Adolin's character described as lacking objectivity. I'm sure you didn't intend it to come across as though arguments supporting Adolin being either a good man and/or Radiant are inherently less rational than arguments dismissing it, but at first blush, it's kind of how it read.

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

Speaking purely user to user, I'm going to admit I was a little upset to see positive arguments for Adolin's character described as lacking objectivity. I'm sure you didn't intend it to come across as though arguments supporting Adolin being either a good man and/or Radiant are inherently less rational than arguments dismissing it, but at first blush, it's kind of how it read.

I'm with you here.  I definitely get upset as well when people say that arguments in support of Shalladin, or just shipping arguments in general, lack objectivity, and that such arguments are inherently less rational than arguments supporting a different perspective or on other subjects.  Which is exactly what I was being told earlier in this thread.  (For what it's worth, I haven't seen you personally do this.)  Adolin comes into it, because no matter how attenuated the reasoning, I don't generally see the same type of disparaging "oh, you can't actually do an objective analysis on this" or "oh, you are just drawing your interpretation out of thin air" implications come into the picture when it's an Adolin-positive argument.

To that end, you and thegatorgirl00 are definitely interpreting Adolin's behavior as positively as possible in that scene, and I doubt you'd see much, if any, push back that the subject is too subjective to analyze or that you are imaging those interpretations with lack of textual evidence, given as similar arguments have been made before without it (or if that occurred, it has been met with extreme consternation.)  That was my point.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

I have thoughts on Shalladin, but I don't want to derail this thread by going into detail about. Suffice to say that I'll acknowledge there's attraction there, and I don't think it makes sense to argue that there isn't but I don't think it means it's going anywhere further, especially after the ending of OB. I could be wrong about that but that's how I feel.

Similarly I'll acknowledge that I cannot conclusively prove my opinions about what is going on between Adolin and Maya. If we had conclusive proof either way we wouldn't be having this discussion. However, it is my personal belief that there is something going on there and I think there's strong textual support for that interpretation.  Other people feel differently obviously.

[BillLangdon he/him]

I personally do think that Maya is somehow waking up, perhaps with some heavy influence of the incredible power that Dalinar is manifesting, and perhaps because of Adolin’s pureness of heart, BUT.....

My money is on him not becoming a Radiant.

From a narrative perspective, I think it makes sense for Brandon to make a main character who is as involved with the radiants as Adolin is, simply remain human and non-radiant. His character has a really good arc going on right now. Everyone in his immediate circle is becoming Radiant, God-Like. He comes from a world where he was not only the most loved, but also the best, and now suddenly he is being left behind by people who otherwise would not rival him. But he takes it in stride and continues to do his best. He is the best literary example of unaided humanity being good enough.