[OB spoilers] Is Maya alive?

[Calderis]

26 minutes ago, GarrethGrey said:

@Calderis Again (this is the third time I've said this), I'm not saying they are complete pacifists. Its like you're purposefully ignoring what I'm saying. They can be deadly, they can be dangerous, that does not mean that they are running around wreaking havoc and killing everything in sight. They most certainly do not enjoy hurting and killing people.

I actually wasn't aware you were directing that at me. Or I would have responded. 

My take is that that quote makes what Adolin did fit perfectly. They aren't sadists and neither is he. As CrazyRioter said

46 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

He doesn't enjoy killing in that manner under more typical circumstances. He's a bit bothered after the Thaylen City battle because he's struck by killing other humans.

Adolin killed Sadeas because he destroyed people's lives. He "enjoyed" it in that moment because Sadeas deserved it. 

I think that the Edgedancers generally avoided fighting where it wasn't necessary. But like a mother bear, if you messed with the people they cared for or the people they thought needed to be cared for... You'd better watch your back. 

Edited March 4, 2018 by Calderis

[GarrethGrey]

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I actually wasn't aware you were directing that at me. Or I would have responded. 

Thats my bad, I never did direct anything to you specifically. I just assumed you had seen my posts.

But I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this topic, which is fine.

I don't think any Edgedancers are going to ever enjoy killing anyone, regardless of circumstances. I'm not calling Adolin a sadist, but him flying into a rage and murdering someone in a dark hallway, enjoying it, and not feeling bad about, it just doesn't sound like something an Edgedancer would ever do, and it does not matter how much Sadeas "deserved" it. If Adolin dueled, or fought Sadeas on the battlefield, its a completely different story, and even then, he should not enjoy it

[Yata]

Well Kal-Protection- stormblessed planned both to Murder a man he hates and to allow someone to Murder someone else he sweared to protect.

People are not Perfect and they make errors... Judging Adolin as unfitting for a specific instance. It's like judging Kaladin unfitting for Windrunners.

Edited March 4, 2018 by Yata

[Vissy]

20 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I'm curious what your definition of a good Samaritan is. To me, it's just someone who stops to help someone they see in need which I believe Adolin does based on the examples others have provided.

Someone who dedicates their life to the betterment of the poor would qualify.

@thegatorgirl00 What makes you think Lift's values were any different before she swore her Second Ideal? 

Also, you're wrong about Kaladin. He absolutely wanted to protect those outside Bridge Four, he wanted to protect the other bridge crews as well. This even becomes a plot point in the story.

Yeah, it's not about the perfect candidate. I already said that there's no obstacle in principle to Adolin becoming a Radiant, didn't I? It's just that, personally, I don't think he is capable of becoming an Edgedancer. I want to see some of his flaws.

[PhineasGage]

Hi all. Catch up time

9 hours ago, Isilel said:

By this logic Lopen's Second Oath shouldn't count. After all, Kaladin swore his when in mortal danger from 2 different directions: he was charging a Parshendi shieldwall by himself and making an impossible leap over a deadly chasm. All so he could save the beleaguered Kholin army basically by his lonesome. But Lopen was completely safe!  Clearly not "enough Windrunner material" .

'Fraid you have rather gone a bit strong on this one. I was trying to compare like with like - Adolin's actions with Lift's because we saw both of them make similar decisions in similar circumstances. I don't know why Lopen is a Radiant, but he must fulfill the necessary criteria for Brandon, or he wouldn't be one. Adolin clearly doesn't fit the ED mold (yet?) because otherwise he would be one. I don;t think it is reasonable to compare Lopen's progression with Adolin's for this reason.

Let's be clear, being in danger is not necessary for progression of an order. Shallan progresses in non-deadly situations. Kaladin hasn't yet. Lopen has, Lift hasn't. This means it is more down to how that individual feels and when they as individuals are ready. Danger is immaterial. My point was that Adolin doesn't put himself in more danger in that moment the way Lift does - she was free and clear to get away but she goes back anyway. Adolin was in serious danger anyway, saving the kid did not (imo) put him in a much riskier position. 

Again though, this isn't a critiscm of Adolin, what he does is brave and good. But being a brave and good person does not automatically make you Radiant material. Indeed, from the very little we have seen of Malata (and one could even argue, Venli) "good" is so subjective to the spren that it is essentially irrelevant as an alignment.

9 hours ago, Isilel said:

We can evaluate his behavior in the light of what we know about Edgedancer principles and reputation.

So let us be clear about what we actually know

1) They use Abrasion and Progression (it seems they access Abrasion earlier)

2) According to Nale: They were considered elegant things of beauty. But also would ignore things of great import in favor of smaller things, as some would see it.

3) They were "elegant and refined" and had a reputation for deadliness.

4) Their ideals are as follows: 

“Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. ”

“I will remember those who have been forgotten. ”

“I will listen to those who have been ignored. ”

And even this list is not completely unbiased because we know Nale has limited sympathy for the order - he was quite dismissive of their attitude to "matters of greater importance".

I'll even leave the stuff from Lift out of it to be clear here! Can we say Adolin meets these criteria? No, because they are way too open to interpretation. It doesn't mean that he doesn't meet them, it is just that there isn't enough evidence to push strongly in one way or another. How important is each aspect? Does it depend on the individual spren's choices? Can a character meet most but not all of the requirements? Does the spren know whether they can guide their potential Radiant down a specific path or not before they bond? We don;t know any of these facts and plenty more thus, we have limited evidence for Adolin becoming ED at best. I would be happier to agree he might become one in a normal setting. But re-awakening a blade? It's never been done before afaik - that is a step above the norm. Once she is awakened, maybe - but we know too little about how that is going to happen.

Ultimately, extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. I'm not saying that there isn't some canon to support the idea itmight happen, I just don't see enough to have people stand firmly in the "Adolin will be ED" camp - at best it is an hypothesis. 

9 hours ago, Isilel said:

Well, if we hear that the other 5 dead shardblades were similarly changed for the duration of the realms unity, then sure, you'd be completely right. If not, then there is something else going on with Maya, something unique to her.

I don't think you understood my point? I said that she is in a unique position - indeed i mentioned 3 specific circumstances that are unique to her. Her unique situation is in fact why i feel that who her bearer is, matters less than her proximity to the perpendicularity and the fact her bearer went into Shadesmar and gained an understanding of what/who she actually is. 

That is all likely important, but it doesn't automatically mean that Adolin matters - the evidence points to the specific set of circumstances and it is unclear whether any blade held by any bearer would have had the same re-awakening as Maya has, or whether Adolin's attitude matters. That is supremely unclear because we only have Adolin's example.

Ultimately a spren and a Herald (given their very high levels of investiture) are not so different. Taln becomes more lucid during the perpendicularity, so does Maya. His definitely doesn't last - we don't know about hers. Adolin doesn't mention her again after the battle so we don't know what is happening there. 

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

To the Taln and Maya difference, that's exactly my point. The argument that the perpendicularity healed Maya is flawed in my mind, because neither of them should be healed by that. 

For Taln it would temporarily alleviate the problem. 

For Maya, the same fix shouldn't have done that. It may have facilitated him being able to hear her... But her ability to speak to him at all shouldn't be present without her having already started to heal. 

Why not? Taln, as a hearald, holds a huge amount of investiture. A spren is investiture that has gained sentience. I don't think they are all that different really. Indeed, I think that they were shown to both be affected for a reason, and that reason has to be the perpendicularity. It wasn't coincidence that both gain lucidity that seems to wain as the realms move apart again.

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

We don't know enough about Edgedancers to try and say who is or isn't one. But Maya awakening, in my opinion, shouldn't be possible without a bond. 

But she is bonded. It is a "false" bond i suppose you might say - but she has a bond with Adolin - it just isn't a Nahel bond. They "sync a heartbeat to their essense" (Syl says so in WoR) but they can be called and dsmissed and have some awareness. the sword Oathbringer recognises Dalainar - hence it whimpers rather than screams. So they aren't completely mindless, even prior to the perpendicularity. That doesn't mean Adolin is "healing" her - he might be, but it might be a facet of normal dead-blade behaviour as we see Maya "scream" at Shallan (when she holds her to open the path to Urithiru) but Dalinar only hears a whimper when he picks up OB - so they recognise people.

Note that the SF specifically even says to Dalinar, "it hates you less than the others" or something to that effect. This implies that blades typically hate their bearers, at least a little bit. Maya might just hate Adolin less than (eg) Shallan, but that doesn't mean she doesn't hate him at all. 

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

Well, sometimes it is more difficult to prove a negative than a positive.

Actually it is impossible.  I cannot prove that there isn't an invisible pink unicorn that lives on the moon - I can only say we have never found any evidence of one which leads us to suggest that the likelihood is so small that we can say there is no invisible pink unicorn living on the moon. The arguement to counter it is always going to be "maybe you just haven't found the evidence yet".

This is why if you want to make an extraordinary claim  you need extraordinary evidence. In this case, whilst there is some canon evidence to support the idea of Adolin becoming ED by bonding Maya, there is enough contradictory evidence to suggest otherwise. Ultimately whether or not you believe depends on which evidence you find more compelling.

Quick Science lesson - because I can

Null Hypothesis and Hypothesis

When trying to look at evidence you should use the idea of the null hypothesis and hypothesis to test your arguments. The null hypothesis is the "fall back position" - ie the result you will accept if you cannot "prove" the hypothesis. It therefore holds the "negative" view of any situation - eg this drug is no better than that drug. The hypothesis is the one you test against the hyptheisis - eg "this drug is better than that drug".

In the case of Adolin therefore, the null hypothesis must be:

"Adolin is not responsible for awakening Maya"

And the hypothesis is:

"Adolin is responsible for awakening Maya". 

Then you compare and contrast. I personally find the evidence too contradictory to allow me to go into the hypothesis camp. There is some evidence but given the presence of the perpendicularity we have a serious confounding factor that makes it impossible to say Adolin is responsible. We may find he is partly responsible, but there is good evidence that the perpendicularity is also at least in part responsible so therefore we need more evidence - or a way of removing the confounders - both of which will likely come in the next book.

Confounders, for reference, are factors that independently affect the outcome of the results - they may bias us towards the hypothesis if they can't be accounted for and thus render the result next to useless.

For a RL example: Drug X gives better results than Drug Y but if all the people taking Drug X are also taking Drug Z then can we be sure whether it is Drug X that is better, that Drug Z is better or is it the duel action of X+Z that matters? Can we trust the results of that study? No, not really, this is why we do big studies and put together big meta-analyses of studies to control for as many confounders as possible.

 

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

Certainly, quotes from WoR that I cite in my previous post suggest that Lift is, in many respects, an outlier. Her pacifism  is not characteristic of her Order

I don't know. Just because I am a pascifist doesn't mean I can't be dangerous. Using violence as a last resort only doesn't automatcially mean you can't be "deadly" when you do finally use it. 

Not only that, in the quote from WoR it is unclear why the person felt "consternation" - what if they had been doing something bad/wrong and the EDs were there to have them imprisoned? It doesn't have to resulted in violence. Indeed "consternation" doesn't seem a strong enough feeling if you think you are about to be executed:

consternation

 1. a feeling of anxiety or dismay, typically at something unexpected.

 

I don;t think we can comment one way or another on EDs pascifism - they may or may not have been pascifists. Note, however that given their attributes "loving" and "healing" it seems reasonable to conclude that violence was not going to be their first choice. 

 

7 hours ago, Vissy said:

In my eyes, if he is a "good Samaritan" at all (I don't think that he is), he is a shallow and hypocritical one. No, I see Adolin more as just a very good person, who nevertheless cannot often see past his own nose. So in principle I don't see any barrier for Adolin to become an Edgedancer... but so far I'm not convinced that he will, and I think he'd have to grow as a character before I'd consider that viable. I'm not 100% sure if Adolin will even make it alive into the back five books yet though so who knows 

I largely agree with this.

The Good Samaritan was a story about helping your perceived enemies. This isn't Adolin - not yet anyway. He is a good person, but he still has clear ideas on "us and them". Thats fine and normal. Lift, in a way also doesn't actually do "Good Samaritan" stuff but from a completely different point - she doesn't see "us and them" at all really - anyone who needs hep should get it as far as she is concerned.

5 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I think it's important to remember Adolin is nowhere near that level yet. To make a comparison that I know isn't perfect because the orders are different, he's where Kaladin was for the majority of WoK. Kaladin didn't care about protecting those outside his immediate circle until just before he swore the second oath.

7 hours ago, Vissy said:

So in principle I don't see any barrier for Adolin to become an Edgedancer... but so far I'm not convinced that he will, and I think he'd have to grow as a character before I'd consider that viable.

I think my main disagreement with what yo have said is the idea that the growth has to come before the bond is formed. The way I see it, the Nahel bond isn't about the spren finding the perfect candidate and then bonding them. It's about the spren finding someone who could maybe, possibly, eventually become the perfect candidate and bonding them, and then working towards that goal through trying to understand and live a series of ideals guiding how the perfect candidate would live.

I think I get what you are saying, but I think Vissy's point was that Adolin doesn't even meet minimum requirements yet, not that he needs to be perfect. I agree that growth needs to happen after.

Plant analogy (because cultivationspren) - to become a particular type of tree you need to be a particular kind of seed. If we have an acorn, that seed can only become an oak tree. It isn't going to become a beech tree no matter how well you tend it. Unlike seeds, people can change so, if Adolin is currently an acorn, but Maya wants him to be a beech tree, he needs to become a beechnut before she can help him grow into a beech tree.

And most importantly, from an external perspective - does it matter whether as a person Adolin is an oak or a beech tree - both trees are amazing in their own ways - will he be a "better" tree if he is beech than if he stays as an "oak"? I personally think while I would like to see more growth from Adolin (as a means to furterhing the overall story) I don't mind what kind of tree he comes. If he becomes an ED and it further the story, great, if not, and it furthers the story, that is also great.

4 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

Technically, Adolin isn't a "natural" Radiant, either. His is a completely unique scenario that has never been seen before in the entire Cosmere.

Yes. This is why i don't subscribe to the theory. The hypothesis has merits, but because of the extraordinary circumstances needed to achieve the outcome I don't think we are quite there yet in terms of the evidence.

3 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

But we've also been told (Including by Nale who is a primary source on the matter) that some Edgedancers were present on battlefields and apparently considered quite dangerous. So obviously Edgedancers don't have to be pacifists.

This rather depends on the definition of pacifist. 

 

1. a person who believes that war and violence are unjustifiable.

 

2. holding the belief that war and violence are unjustifiable.

 

You can believe they are unjustifiable but still participate in a battle. Like @SLNC said, you can be a non-combat person on a battlefield. Even if we assume you are acting with deadly force, that doesn't mean you have to like it. Have we seen Kaladin kill anyone since WoR? He didn't even kill Szeth. He acts as a dodge-tank primarily, not an off tank - he clearly isn't a pacifist but he also clearly doesn't like killing. The situation is not black and white.

 

I think the main argument is that the only ED we know, and her spren, are against killing as an option. Sure, she might be an extremist in these views, but does it not seem likely that an order following the ideals of loving and healing would at least not enjoy killing? 

 

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

A group of pacifists could cover the consternation half of what is presented in that quote. They do not inspire terror though. 

The issue is that what is the person terrified of? It could easily be that he is terrified of (eg) character assassination, not actually being killed. His power could be taken away, for example - that inspires terror in politicians - especially authoritative ones. Not to be too political, but let's face it Donald Trump is terrified of the Mueller investigation - and with good reason - it has the power to undermine his authority. Whether you think he did anything wrong or not is immaterial - either he is guilty and is worried what a fair investigation will find, or he is innocent and scared of what a corrupt investigation would find. Both, with good reason, can inspire fear in a reasonable person. 

Just because you can be deadly, doesn't mean you have to be. Kaladin is literally branded with the word dangerous (well, the glyph, but whatever) but actually we haven't seen him specifically kill anyone since WoR and even that was retconned (I haven't read/seen the retconned version) so I believe in fact his last "official" kill would be tWoK? But I bet you would still call him deadly because if he needed to, he can  be deadly - look at the chasmfiend.

Side note, a little off topic, but loosely related:

I had an interesting conversation with my SO about Greek tragedy. Just for quick reference, the classic ancient Greek tragedy essentially revolves around stuff going wrong because of deliberate actions taken by the protagonist. Usually a kind of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" type story. There are some situations of misfortune that are not attributed to the character for whom the tragedy is playing out, but their actions in response to those situations are what ultimately cause them to fall. I would argue that Adolin possibly falls into this trope - although obviously we haven't got far enough in his story yet to be sure.

To be clear, the traditional storyline revolves around an opening action that is a terrible crime but that the protagonist does not recognise as a "bad" action. The stage is set then for a gradual collapse of that character's world, and nothing they do helps them redeem themselves - indeed usually further actions hasten their downfall.

To compare, Kaladin's "failures" occur for one of two reasons - either he is undermined by external forces (escapes as a slave failing because he lacked the resources to succeed) or he fails to act (the near assassination of Elhokar and Syl's death). These do not fit the classic tragedy mold.

Likewise, Shallan's "failures" occur through outside agency that she failed to take account of (the poor in Kholinar being used by another group to get to her) or through direct outside agency (the abuse of herself and her brother's). The closest aspect to the classic tragedy is the murder of both her parents, however because Shallan herself does not actually justify her own actions in either case it doesn't actually fit the mold. Both could, however potentially be set up for the cause of a classic Greek tragedy storyline if she starts justifying herself - it would a bit off script, but it would still fit the general idea of the mold.

Dalinar, in contrast, has multiple failures etc but they all stem from him getting his "just desserts" as a result of being a villain (as the Blackthorn). This is an important difference with the classic Greek tragedy where the protagonist is sympathetic, not villainous. Indeed, his (typically the protagonist is male) actions, in the moment are, at worst, seen as morally questionable, but necessary evils. 

Interestingly, Aristotle wrote in his "Poetics":

""Tragedy is, therefore, an imitation (mimēsis) of a noble and complete action [...] which through compassion and fear produces purification of the passions."

I would argue that therefore having a "tragic" character in the cast in SA fits very well because of the themes being explored around passion and responsibility. Adolin, who feels the most like the "classic hero" is the best candidate from a purely meta perspective to fit this role because it is the heroes of Greek mythology who were most likely to become victims of a tragedy. For example Hercules, Agamemnon, Odysseus, Achilles all had tragic storylines. The interesting thing is that during the progression of the story there would be highs and lows but ultimately the descent is inexorable. Each "good" action is proven to result in a bad outcome because the "good action" was not actually as good as it initially appeared. 

Thus, even if Adolin does bond Maya, if he is indeed following a classic Greek Tragedy arc, it may not be a good thing at all. 

[CrazyRioter]

I'd say since she attempted to remove a Fused's face on his behalf she probably doesn't hate him. I'm interested in what would happen if one of the Radiants touched Maya while Adolin was holding her at this point. That would likely be an informative experiment. Relis' Blade apparently accused him of killing it when Kaladin grabbed it.

Edited March 4, 2018 by CrazyRioter

[Vissy]

Well, technically every time you dismiss the Blade, you kill it again... and again... and again... 

Edited March 4, 2018 by Vissy

[PhineasGage]

23 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I'd say since she attempted to remove a Fused's face on his behalf she probably doesn't hate him. I'm interested in what would happen if one of the Radiants touched Maya while Adolin was holding her at this point. That would likely be an informative experiment. Relis' Blade apparently accused him of killing it when Kaladin grabbed it.

She might - she could just hate him less than she hates the fused. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. Ultimately Maya is probably better off with Adolin alive and being decent to her than dead and her given to another human who might misuse her. Does it not seem reasonable to assume that a bonded blade is probably hurt not only when summoned but also when their bearer dies? Even if that isn't the case, an abused dog who hates their master will still do their bidding more willingly than the bidding of someone else. The slave mentality takes over.

[thegatorgirl00]

7 hours ago, Vissy said:

Someone who dedicates their life to the betterment of the poor would qualify.

@thegatorgirl00 What makes you think Lift's values were any different before she swore her Second Ideal? 

I guess we just fundamentally disagree on what makes someone a Good Samaritan. To me what you described would be a social worker, which Brandon said in the WoB wasn't fully accurate. 

I don't think her values were any different. She still cared about people. My question is that if she didn't have some doubts and uncertainties on who she should care for, then why didn't she swear the ideal sooner? I'll admit that my logic is probably flawed on this point. 

[Vissy]

1 hour ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I guess we just fundamentally disagree on what makes someone a Good Samaritan. To me what you described would be a social worker, which Brandon said in the WoB wasn't fully accurate. 

I don't think her values were any different. She still cared about people. My question is that if she didn't have some doubts and uncertainties on who she should care for, then why didn't she swear the ideal sooner? I'll admit that my logic is probably flawed on this point. 

Maybe because she wasn't a Radiant back then. Maybe she just didn't feel like doing it. You don't necessarily have to swear the Oath at the immediate moment when you're ready. 

[maxal]

15 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

Maybe you are right that some readers not wanting Adolin to become a Radiant is affecting their opinions the way you say happened with you and Elhokar. But a lot of your arguments could just as easily be flipped around. Perhaps those that really want to see Adolin as a Radiant (or at least something consequential) are reading too much into equivocal evidence.  We all have some bias, all we can do is try to be aware of it. But I see plenty of arguments against Adolin becoming an Edgedancer that are thoughtful and that don’t attack him in the way you are suggesting (and that’s even despite the fact that the Edgedancer theory appears to be far more popular than any alternative here). 

To be clear I got into this thread (perhaps foolishly) not because I had any intention of trying to convince people who are into the Edgedancer  theory that they are wrong. I have no interest in doing that. No, I got pulled in because I saw what seemed to me some arguments being diminished or dismissed and I wanted to add my voice in defense of dissenting opinions. I hope anyone reading this will give some thought to that, but I think I’m going to stop here because in my mind we’re at risk of derailing the thread.

Anyone's argument can be flipped around, my own as well as anyone else. I however do not find the opposite side is providing convincing enough arguments. They often rely on stating Adolin's action are pretty ordinary and anyone would have done the same and/or by giving the character motivations which fall outside what we know of him on the pretense we aren't getting enough of his viewpoints, hence he might have had selfish motivations.

To make matter simpler, I would say, currently, we aren't arguing as to whether or not Adolin will become an Edgedancer. I agree none of us can know for sure and, even if I do find the narrative is seriously hinting towards it happening, it will not be canon until it is written. Hence, textual evidence or not, Adolin is not an Edgedancer, yet, and even if I do believe the relationship he has with Maya is a Nahel Bond, it could also turned out to be a static Nahel Bond. Bottom line is narrative can still go both ways even if I believe one is more likely than the other.

We are however arguing as to whether or not Adolin could become an Edgedancer, not should nor will, but could. This is the core of the actual disagreement: some readers aren't seeing it as a possibility while others see it as a definite possibility, but no one can know for sure, either way.

Now we made this clear, let's talk about the arguments. What are the arguments against the theory?

Adolin saves the prostitute.

My personal interpretation is the narrative is highly suggesting Adolin is taking exceptional initiative in a situation where most would have gone their own way and ignore the woman's plight. We haven't been privy to every lighteyed within the warcamps, but most of those we have seen wouldn't have lift their small finger for the prostitute, but Adolin, having nothing to gain, did it. Kaladin himself believes it is out of the ordinary for Adolin to step down and help her. What he did is nowhere near as benign as the counter-argument wants it to be. This argument is usually counter-argued by either stating Adolin's action are not exceptional and/or his inner motivations must have been selfish.

I do not buy into any of this counter-argument. Why? If lighteyes were so benevolent they all would, on average, respond to a poor woman being molested by an army captain, then there wouldn't be so much resentment against them within the lower class. The whole "racist" being depicted within the Alethi society would be much less rampant. It however isn't the case. We have zero example of lighteyes actually caring about the lower classed people in a more personal ways except Adolin. Hence, his actions definitely weren't the normal action any man would have taken. Moreover, Kaladin does not believe it is the regular action any man would have done: this event alone is what helped him trust the Kholins. Seeing Dalinar Kholin's son save a prostitute is the event which made Kaladin think all talks of Dalinar being a honorable man might be true. It wasn't an insignificant piece of information we got here, but a definite event which told the readers Adolin wasn't just about superficiality. It also played a crucial role into the later events and within Kaladin's character development. The fact Adolin is nice is basically what got Kaladin to start seeing lighteyes as people, to stop judging them without knowing them.

Another counter-argument would be how Adolin's motivations could be anything else but benevolent on the pretense we aren't getting his viewpoints. This one is iffy. It relies on giving the character motivations which aren't consistent with the rest of his character arc. So while yes, it sometimes happen a given character appears to be "nice" only to see the narrative being later subverted as his motivations become something else, but I sincerely do not believe one second Brandon is doing it with Adolin. Why? Because we do get his viewpoints in other occasions and not once does Adolin appear to be self-serving nor selfish nor caring about his reputation. To state the event must be it is to disregard the rest of the character's narrative, hence this counter-argument carries very little weight. 

Another way this argument gets dispelled is by saying Adolin's life was not in immediate danger, hence making his action meaningless. On this, I agree with @Isilel: of all Radiants, only Kaladin and Lift were seen to voice out oaths during life or death situations, it didn't happen in such ways for the others. I thus have a very hard time seeing Adolin's actions here being dismissed on the basis it wasn't dire enough. My take is Adolin saw a woman being molested. Unlike most people, he stopped to save her. The fact the event itself did not lent for Adolin to sacrifice his life does not make it meaningless. This counter-argument always seemed dismissive towards Adolin's character. Here he does something benevolent, something definitely inline with the behavior we would expect out of Edgedancers, based on the little we do know, and yet because the circumstances weren't dire, it gets dismissed. Truth is dire circumstances do not happen on an every day basis. I would personally not think much of an Edgedancer who waits for events to be drastic to take action whereas, in truth, people need smaller help on an everyday basis. Hence, I really do not get why this is even an argument. How can it be an argument against him becoming an Edgedancer? Had he not save the prostitute, had he walk passed her, sure, yeah, this would be a serious counter-argument, but he did save her.

Considering Brandon's definition of the Edgedancers as "good Samaritans", an Edgedancer would have done the same. Just because some Edgedancers have done more does not mean what Adolin did is insignificant. Let's again look at Teft and Lopen not having gone through tragic circumstances anywhere near Kaladin's and yet, whatever they did, it was more than enough. On the matter of what it means to be a "good Samaritans", I think we should stick with the rightful dictionary definition which is "charitable and helpful people" and isn't "individual dedicating their life to help others". I think some of the argument against Adolin works on the premises Edgedancers should dedicate himself to change the entire world, which again, isn't something Lift does nor does it fit the definition of the orders: it just fits what some readers are thinking the order may be about.

This works with another counter argument I addressed within a previous post is how what Adolin did is not enough because he only saved her, he did not try to change her life. This one comes form a misunderstanding of what the Edgedancers stand for: they aren't "social workers", but benevolent people. It is also worth noting while Lift does help random people, she never raised one finger to help them change their life. What has she done for the urchins she has met? The poor injured people? Apart from giving them one time help, has she done more? Nope. So why Adolin is suddenly not suitable for a given order because he didn't? Especially considering the fact he actually isn't an Edgedancer. As I stated above, we aren't discussing as to whether or not he is one, but as to whether or not he could become one.

Adolin remembers people.

OK. He does remember fallen people. The counter argument is: "Who doesn't?". The counter argument to this is: "Who actually does?" Not Elhokar nor Dalinar.  Back in WoK, Adolin is appalled at seeing 50 of his soldiers die because Elhokar wanted to play at being a leader. He brings out the list of dead men to the king which he brushes away without caring about it. Dalinar not once voiced out thoughts about them. Worst, after the Tower incident, Dalinar never wastes thoughts for his fallen soldiers while Adolin does. What more could Adolin have done? He's already done more than anyone else within the book.

He remembers Evi. The counter argument is this is not enough because Evi wasn't a prostitute nor a thief nor a poor individual, hence surely there were people to remember her. Oh how I disagree with this one. First off, Evi wasn't loved within the Alethi society: she was shunned upon, dismissed and it likely is not many people do miss her. Here is the tragedy, poor girl died and not many people shed a tear. A decade later, very few people are still speaking of her, except her son. Second off, who said the "forgotten" had to be poor people? I felt Edgedancer, the novel, highlighted how the term ought to be taken to its broader sense since we had Lift listen to Nale who isn't a forgotten in the sense readers have taken for granted. Hence, Adolin remembering his mother do is akin to Edgedancer's ideals. By itself it may not be enough, but it does show the character has the potential to grow in this direction. It shows the character isn't allowing people to go forgotten: he remembers. Just as he remembers Sureblood, he remembers to care for Gallant, when Dalinar had by all means forgotten. Of all characters, he's the only one to express concern over Kholinar which arguably wasn't a major plot point, but it was a great deal lot more than Dalinar. Even Elholar, when he strives to liberate the city, wants to do it for his own personal glory. Only Adolin seemed genuinely sadden to know the city had fallen.

And there is Maya... The dead-Blade Adolin tries to honor the memory of. Doesn't it strike it as coincidence Maya starts to speak to Adolin after he apologizes for her and after he tries to use her to fight what she was made to fight? Adolin tries to honor the spirit of Maya, the spirit of what she once was even while knowing he can't bring her back (I do not think he thinks he can do it).

A counter argument to all this is, well, Renarin too remembers his mother. Really? When? Truth is, the only character Brandon has seen fit to show speaking about his mother, remembering her is Adolin, not Renarin.

Either way, as other pointed out, most of it is beyond the point: Adolin has not sworn an oath to remember the forgotten, but the fact he is doing it, to some extend, without having sworn an oath does imply he would be able to both 1) find this oath, 2) swear it, 3) maintain it.

Adolin saves the boy

With this scene, I felt Brandon dispelled some of the criticism the readers gave to him saving the prostitute. If his life wasn't put in immediate danger back when he saved the prostitute, it most definitely was when he saved the boy. Another action which he didn't have do it, but chose to do anyway. The counter-argument usually is, anyone would have done it, hence Adolin is not special.

This counter argument, just like above, does not hold the road. The thing is, had we read countless of characters saving random people out of goodness of heart, then yeah, what Adolin did wouldn't be very special. but this isn't the case. The only, only characters we have seen genuinely try to care for people outside their immediate circle were either Radiant or Adolin. Not once are we reading any soldier do an act of bravery by saving a child or anyone else, not once. Hence, the argument "Adolin is not acting any differently than anyone else, hence he can't be Radiant material" is running on false premises. No one is doing it but him.

10 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

'Fraid you have rather gone a bit strong on this one. I was trying to compare like with like - Adolin's actions with Lift's because we saw both of them make similar decisions in similar circumstances. I don't know why Lopen is a Radiant, but he must fulfill the necessary criteria for Brandon, or he wouldn't be one. Adolin clearly doesn't fit the ED mold (yet?) because otherwise he would be one. I don;t think it is reasonable to compare Lopen's progression with Adolin's for this reason.

The reason Lopen's example is interesting is because his character did nothing special prior to being bonded to a spren to actually deserve it other than really wanting it. According to a recent WoB, he is not even "broken" in the same way as others, he doesn't have a dark past or any tragedy lingering into it. Lopen being made a Radiant really highlights the fact it isn't so much about you being the "perfect candidate", it is about you having the right potential to grow into the order. Clearly, there is a spren who thought Lopen had it. 

Based on the textual we have read so far, there are no reasons to believe another spren wouldn't find Adolin acceptable. You state if he were acceptable, then he'd be an Edgedancer already. Yes and no. The Edgedancers, as far as we know, only sent Wyndle to bond someone and this someone was chosen by the Nightwatcher herself. The initial choice was Ym. There are no other Edgedancers we know of, hence the fact none of the Cultivationspren noticed Adolin is an irrelevant argument, we don't even know if there are any about in the first place. 

Being a Radiant, as far as the narrative is concerned, isn't just about fitting, it also is about being chosen and the fact someone was not chosen, yet, does not mean they can never be a Radiant nor that they don't have qualities which would make them good Radiants.

The Edgedancers, based on what we know, are about:

1) Remembering the forgotten

Adolin has proven he is capable of doing this even if he hasn't grown into saying an oath yet. To state he would be completely unable to swear and hold onto this oath doesn't work with the narrative we have read so far. Adolin doesn't want to forget people and if he does, then it usually is due to a lack of awareness more than an inability to do so.

2) Listening to the forgotten

Adolin is basically the only character we have seen taking the time to listen to what others have to say. He's the only one who listens, really listens to Kaladin. He listens to him men, his listens to his men quarreling. Sure, he has not listened to a fallen Herald nor an urchin little girl down in the street, but he never had the occasion to do so nor has he grown into adopting it as an oath, but could he live by this motto? According to the narrative we have read, yes, he could. That's the key can he become an Edgedancer, yes most definitely, but is he one, not yet.

3) Being a good Samaritan, helping people

Each time he has an occasion to help, he does so. The fact he could have seek more people to help is irrelevant, he acted when he had the occasion. He acted when most people wouldn't. Does this make him an Edgedancer? Not yet, but it does mean he has the right mind frame to so so.

11 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Can we say Adolin meets these criteria? No, because they are way too open to interpretation.

I disagree. See the above. Every single plot element revolving around Adolin involve him behaving in ways which are reminiscent of either one of the Edgedancer oaths. How can we say he does not meet any of those criteria in any way which would make him able to swear those oaths and maintain them? Where is the argument Adolin absolutely cannot become this individual? It isn't a matter of open to interpretation, it is a matter of Adolin having actually adopt several behavior which do fall inline with those oaths, no matter how you interpret them, hence to state there is no evidence is more akin to not wanting this evidence to exist than it not really existing.

11 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

But she is bonded. It is a "false" bond i suppose you might say - but she has a bond with Adolin - it just isn't a Nahel bond. They "sync a heartbeat to their essense" (Syl says so in WoR) but they can be called and dsmissed and have some awareness. the sword Oathbringer recognises Dalainar - hence it whimpers rather than screams. So they aren't completely mindless, even prior to the perpendicularity. That doesn't mean Adolin is "healing" her - he might be, but it might be a facet of normal dead-blade behaviour as we see Maya "scream" at Shallan (when she holds her to open the path to Urithiru) but Dalinar only hears a whimper when he picks up OB - so they recognise people.

Dalinar heard a whimper because he is a Radiant and Radiant can hear dead-Blades. We have absolutely no one ever hear a dead-Blade speak apart from Radiants. Adolin is the very first non-Radiant to hear his Blade: this is significant. It can't be brushed under the carpet because it hints towards Adolin potentially becoming an Edgedancer. It is one very solid piece of evidence, more solid than Elhokar seeing Cryptics into the mirror, more solid than any evidence we got over any character.

Arguably, we do not know how it will pan out, ultimately, but I do not find we can make the argument Maya's behavior is "normal dead-Blade behavior" when every single piece of narrative hints towards it being the opposite case. Dead-Blades just do not communicate with their wielders. 

9 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

She might - she could just hate him less than she hates the fused. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. Ultimately Maya is probably better off with Adolin alive and being decent to her than dead and her given to another human who might misuse her. Does it not seem reasonable to assume that a bonded blade is probably hurt not only when summoned but also when their bearer dies? Even if that isn't the case, an abused dog who hates their master will still do their bidding more willingly than the bidding of someone else. The slave mentality takes over.

Maya did not attack the Fused until after they mortally injured Adolin. If she hated enough to fight them, despite not having the cognitive capacity to do so, according to Ico, then why did she wait for Adolin to be injured? Every single second of this scenes hint towards Adolin's injury being the trigger which gets Maya to act. So while we can always twist the narrative to make it say many things, I feel the simplest explanation is usually the best: Maya saved Adolin because she cared enough about him to do so. She gained enough of something, by being around him, to be able to take concrete definite action.

I honestly do not find the narrative is giving any hints towards it being any other reason for Maya taking action. This is exactly like myself saying the Cryptics did not care about Elhokar because he never seemed like Radiant material: the easiest explanation was they obviously do care and it turned out being dead right. 

The only reason why readers would want to believe Maya is doing anything because of slavery, because she hates her enemies more than Adolin is to find a reason to believe Adolin is not on his way towards becoming an Edgedancer. This is like trying to prove the narrative isn't going where the textual hints it is most likely going by finding alternate reasons as to why it panned out as it did.

So while, again, Adolin may not grow into an Edgedancer, I don't think it will be because he is unsuitable or because "nothing is happening with Maya". It could just be a matter of him not being able to progress further because his Nahel Bond is broken, because it is practically impossible to revive a dead-Blade and he might pull it of, in the end. 

4 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I guess we just fundamentally disagree on what makes someone a Good Samaritan. To me what you described would be a social worker, which Brandon said in the WoB wasn't fully accurate. 

I don't think her values were any different. She still cared about people. My question is that if she didn't have some doubts and uncertainties on who she should care for, then why didn't she swear the ideal sooner? I'll admit that my logic is probably flawed on this point. 

 

Sa·mar·i·tan

səˈmerətn/

noun

noun: Good Samaritan

1. 1.

   a charitable or helpful person (with reference to Luke 10:33).

[CrazyRioter]

She's described as "angry" when attacking the Fused. I think if she was attacking simply because she wanted to avoid pain if he died, or being used by somebody worse she'd have been afraid not angry.

Also, she told him her name. That looks like being friendly to me.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Dalinar heard a whimper because he is a Radiant and Radiant can hear dead-Blades. We have absolutely no one ever hear a dead-Blade speak apart from Radiants.

This is correct. A typical dead blade does not have the level of cognition to think. Contact with a Radiant returns them further to life, due to the Nahel bond they have with their own spren. Relies hears the Spren of his Blade when Kaladin touches it. Prior to that contact, it was not alive enough to scream. 

I agree with almost everything you said @maxal, except for the Lopen part, which I'm sure your already aware of. Being broken is the same Cosmere mechanism as snapping, so while he may not have a "dark" past, his lose of an arm should still have been significant enough trauma to count as "broken." which goes right back into my thoughts on how Adolin not being broken enough is... Inane? Between the emotional Rollercoaster we've seen, a day the emotional losses in his life, he is. If every Radiant had to go through similar levels of trauma and emotional devastation as our main three, then the Radiants would never have numbered in the thousands in the past.

Returning to the in world Words of Radiance, piece that I spoke of earlier. I'll quote it again as it was lost to the page break. 

Quote

 

When Simol was informed of the arrival of the Edgedancers, a concealed consternation and terror, as is common in such cases, fell upon him; although they were not the most demanding of orders, their graceful, limber movements hid a deadliness that was, by this time, quite renowned; also, they were the most articulate and refined of theRadiants. ”

— From Words of Radiance, chapter 20, page 12

The terror in this, in my opinion, is obviously in reference to physical harm. Their renowned deadliness is mentioned in tandem to this for a single incident, and the reaction is "common in such cases." 

I do not know what the incident that sparked this was, but terror mentioned in tandem with their deadliness has clear implications. 

Pacifists do not gain renown for deadliness. Not as a group.

This implies to me, that whatever Simol was involved in was something to which the Edgedancers would violently object, and their arrival meant that he knew he would be on the receiving end of their anger. 

[insert_anagram_here]

I don't understand what's this obsession of making Adolin fit the ED ideals. It was a pure coincidence the Shardblade he is carrying was previously an Edgedancer's, he didn't attract cultivationspren as other KR attract their respective spren and he just happened to go through Shadesmar, otherwise he would've never met Mayalaran.

There is no need to go through mental gymnastics, because it doesn't need Adolin to become an Edgedancer and bond Maya, in order to revive her. That's just a general assumption that's being tossed around without any rational basis. She is dead people. She cannot bond at this point. Do not compare with Syl, she was already bonded to Kaladin and the bond was deteriorating, that's a whole different case.

 

Now on the other hand, if Adolin actually let's go of the dead Shardblade for a little while, I wouldn't be suprised if Willshaper spren started flocking him, (whichever those spren may be) because surely Willshaper description always fitted him better. 

from coppermind:

Quote

Little is currently known about the Willshapers. They were said to be varied in personality, but generally possessing a "love of adventure, novelty, or oddity." Willshapers are mentioned as being capricious, frustrating and unreliable.

The Willshapers would "probably be ok" with Adolin killing Sadeas^[1]

Willshapers were also mentioned as one of the orders (with the Order of Elsecallers and Order of Lightweavers) who had an affinity to the "far realm of spren." (Shadesmar)

love of adventure, novelty, or oddity - check : Adolin is adventurous of course, curious about Shallan the first time he sees her because she looked unusual and actually the only nobleman that states that he likes Wit (and he is definitely an oddity)

capricious, frustrating and unreliable - check: Killing Sadeas is argued as a capricious move, teaching Shallan to fight with a Shardblade is frustrating and unreliable since he was tailoring a new suit instead of helping the Kholinar populace

Willshapers would "probably be ok" with Adolin killing Sadeas - check: Yes, someone actually asked this back before we learned that his blade was a cultivationspren, guess why, because he actually fit that order characteristics better

had an affinity to the "far realm of spren."  - check : maybe this explains why there are all this hints that he just might revive Maya

 

To take it a step further, what do we know about Willshaper powers, they use Transportation & Cohesion

Quote

The surge of Transportation can be manipulated to achieve realmatic transition.[21] The two orders of Knights Radiant with access to this surge are the Elsecallers and the Willshapers. 

Elsecalling: This ability allows the Surgebinder to travel in between Realms. A circular wall of Stormlight can be seen briefly at the target location before the Surgebinder arrives.[41] The Surgebinder can also bring other beings and objects with them while Elsecalling

The surge of Cohesion can be manipulated to alter objects at a molecular level.[43] The two orders of Knights Radiant with access to this surge are the Willshapers and the Stonewards.

So if Transportation allows a Willshaper to travel between Realms and Cohesion can be manipulated to alter objects at molecular level, maybe if these two powers combined somehow a Willshaper could actually fix what's wrong with the dead Shardblade and Maya in the Cognitive Realm. Now after that, yes, why not, I could see him bonding her, but as things currently stand this is all a hypothesis.

The irony is that he needs to actually let go of Maya in order to attract the necessary spren, so who knows, he might do it or he might not and the only way to surely know is to wait, read and find out.

[Calderis]

@insert_anagram_here cohesion allows the manipulation of parts that are already there, and transportation is... Transportation.

How do those fix the hole that is in the Spren? The reason I push for a Nahel bond being the only way to heal Maya... Is because the bond is what was ripped out and created the hole in them, and as far as we've been shown a Nahel bond is the only thing that can fill that hole, hence why reviving them is so much easier with their original bond partner. 

As to him fitting the Willshapers, again I would agree if we were speaking about Adolin at the beginning of tWoK. It's where I placed him originally before I converted to the Edgedancer theory (which was before I knew his Blade was an Edgedancer spren, by the way). 

My biggest issue with the Willshaper idea is that, outside of the specific circumstances of his failed relationships which stem from his own issues, he is not unreliable. He can be counted on for pretty much anything else. 

[CrazyRioter]

WoB has confirmed that it's possible for somebody other then their original partner to bond with a dead spren and heal them and I believe that these WoBs strongly suggest that that a Nahel bond is necessary (barring possibly direct intervention from a Shard) to heal them.

As for Adolin being a Willshaper, I don't think he fits them at all, he's not unreliable, he has issues with relationships in particular but they don't stem from being unreliable. We have WoB that his relationship issues stem from a subconscious lack of self-confidence.

[BraidedRose]

On 3/3/2018 at 4:14 PM, Jofwu said:

I think this is a misunderstanding of her complaint, and is precisely what she finds frustrating. Maxal and Calderis (I think?) were making an argument that we don't know Edgedancer principles/reputation well enough to say Adolin isn't one. But you can't make that argument and then turn around and say there's evidence he is one. Or at least, if you do that then you have to acknowledge your evidence is just as weak as the evidence pointing the other way.

Thank you for clarifying. Yes, there was a misunderstanding and the point I was trying to make is exactly what you said. Even though we have limited information about what is required to be an Edgedancer, I think we have enough that it is fine to speculate whether Adolin would fit them or not. But to say that it's only reasonable to speculate in one direction seems silly and and one-sided to me. 

To clarify a few other points where perhaps my meaning was misunderstood:

@Calderis I understand you are saying you believe a Nahel bond is required for Adolin to have heard Maya speak faintly in his mind. I'm not convinced this is the case, though I understand the evidence you are using to support your idea. That is where we differ on the Taln discussion so I think we just have to agree to disagree on that.

@Isilel I don't think what you and I were saying about using Lift as an example is actually that different. I addressed the part about why we didn't see any evidence of the spren of other dead Shardblades speaking to the ones they are bonded to in an earlier post, but I will expand. Number one there are some unique circumstances with Adolin and his blade which we haven't seen from other Shardbearers (he speaks to his and he just came through Shadesmar where he interacted with his deadeye and it becomes clear that she feels differently about Adolin than most deadeyes apparently feel). Finally, Adolin's is the only viewpoint we were given from someone who holds a dead Shardblade during the perpendicularity. So perhaps other deadeyes had the ability to speak faintly in the minds of the one bonded to them during the perpendicularity but didn't choose to do so because they hate their owners, or perhaps we just didn't get to see it happen with anyone but Adolin. 

4 hours ago, maxal said:

To make matter simpler, I would say, currently, we aren't arguing as to whether or not Adolin will become an Edgedancer. I agree none of us can know for sure and, even if I do find the narrative is seriously hinting towards it happening, it will not be canon until it is written. Hence, textual evidence or not, Adolin is not an Edgedancer, yet, and even if I do believe the relationship he has with Maya is a Nahel Bond, it could also turned out to be a static Nahel Bond. Bottom line is narrative can still go both ways even if I believe one is more likely than the other.

We are however arguing as to whether or not Adolin could become an Edgedancer, not should nor will, but could. This is the core of the actual disagreement: some readers aren't seeing it as a possibility while others see it as a definite possibility, but no one can know for sure, either way.

I'm not sure I agree that in general we are arguing whether Adolin could or could not become an Edgedancer. Speaking for myself at least, that is not what I was arguing. In my mind of course it is a possibility, the question is whether I think it is probable, or put another way do I think that is what Brandon's intention was in showing us something unusual happening with Maya? You go through a great deal of arguments that I have read before so I get what has convinced you, and again I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. I come at the whole question from a different perspective and I will briefly try to explain that just so I am clear. 

When I first finished OB, I did think it more likely that Maya was in the process of reviving. I didn't necessarily assume Adolin would become an Edgedancer because even if Maya were to heal fully, it seems that would still require an additional process so it wouldn't be a foregone conclusion, but I thought it more likely than I do now. After discussion on this board and considering it further, I became more convinced that the perpendicularity is a simpler explanation for the unusual interactions Adolin had with Maya in TC. It's a much greater leap to say that Maya is in the process of reviving and Adolin is in the process of becoming an Edgedancer, so while it is not impossible that is where Brandon is heading it would take a lot to be sure of that. Meanwhile, from a narrative perspective we have a simpler and perfectly viable option for why Brandon could have chosen to show those interactions (to help illustrate what what happening during the perpendicularity). Until we have more compelling evidence for something deeper happening I will go with the simpler explanation.

I really come at this from a narrative perspective, as in why does Brandon choose to show this or that, to help me try to figure out where he is going from here. To take just one other example that is used as evidence for Adolin the Edgedancer. Why did Brandon choose to show Adolin helping the prostitute? I believe strongly that the primary reason he showed this was for Kaladin to witness a lighteyes displaying decency, treating a darkeyes with dignity, so that Kaladin could start to reassess his prejudices. Kaladin at that time believed all lighteyes to be terrible people, particularly high ranking lighteyed officers. So having Adolin go out of his way to help the darkeyed prostitute and treat her with kindness was a first and very important step in Kaladin getting over his hatred of lighteyes. The relationship between Adolin and Kaladin has progressed hugely since due to their subsequent interactions and they now have a pretty awesome friendship and Kaladin no longer hates lighteyes. Could there be a secondary reason for that scene in relationship to Adolin as a potential Edgedancer? Sure, but there's really no need for there to be from a narrative standpoint. 

From a narrative perspective I would like and expect to see Adolin have some kind of impact, but personally I don't feel it has to happen through him becoming a Radiant. I don't expect that he is going to do nothing but stay stagnant as Dalinar's son, Shallan's husband and Kaladin's friend for the next 7 books. But I don't get the sense that Brandon is writing another proto-Radiant arc for him. For instance, I love the idea that @PhineasGage brought in about a potential Greek tragedy like arc (I'm a former theatre major so I'm a sucker for classic tragedy), and I could see other possibilities as well. 

[Calderis]

30 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

Calderis I understand you are saying you believe a Nahel bond is required for Adolin to have heard Maya speak faintly in his mind. I'm not convinced this is the case, though I understand the evidence you are using to support your idea. That is where we differ on the Taln discussion so I think we just have to agree to disagree on that.

And I absolutely understand that. I've been swayed on things before by evidence, and if someone presents an alternative that seems better supported through the text and WoBs I'll do so again. I just don't see an alternative at this point. 

Investiture resists investiture. Spren are living chunks of investiture, so attempting to heal them with a surge, be it progression or some other surge use, the resistance should be nearly insurmountable for something other than a Shard, or someone wielding their power in massive quantities that would most likely count as ascension. 

A perpendicularity itself is significant enough power to enact such a change, but it is undirected. There is no intent to enact the healing process. If the perpendicularity were to heal Maya, it should heal everything. Adolin's gut wound was not healed. There are no mythical stories of the pools in the horneater peaks miraculously healing anyone... The perpendicularities themselves are just pooled power that is available but not actively doing anything. 

For now, I stand by my assertion. I accept that it's not enough for others, but I've seen no evidence to support alternatives other than Taln, who was not healed. 

The perpendicularity idea may be a simpler idea narritively, but it's also inconsistent with the realmatics that Brandon has shown throughout his works, in SA, and beyond in the greater Cosmere. 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Calderis

[CrazyRioter]

We have WoB that throwing massive amounts of stormlight at the problem will not fix the dead spren.

 

[maxal]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

This is correct. A typical dead blade does not have the level of cognition to think. Contact with a Radiant returns them further to life, due to the Nahel bond they have with their own spren. Relies hears the Spren of his Blade when Kaladin touches it. Prior to that contact, it was not alive enough to scream. 

I agree with almost everything you said @maxal, except for the Lopen part, which I'm sure your already aware of. Being broken is the same Cosmere mechanism as snapping, so while he may not have a "dark" past, his lose of an arm should still have been significant enough trauma to count as "broken." which goes right back into my thoughts on how Adolin not being broken enough is... Inane? Between the emotional Rollercoaster we've seen, a day the emotional losses in his life, he is. If every Radiant had to go through similar levels of trauma and emotional devastation as our main three, then the Radiants would never have numbered in the thousands in the past.

As you know, I tend to favor the explanation wanting Lopen to fall within those "other means" Brandon mentioned. I'll admit part of my reasons to prefer this explanation to yours is I feel it makes his character becoming a Radiant more interesting. If Lopen is meant to show us another side of Radianhood, then I am fine with him being one, if not, then he looks too much like fan service and I dislike it.

Given the narrative we have read, I find it could really go both ways.

2 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I don't understand what's this obsession of making Adolin fit the ED ideals. It was a pure coincidence the Shardblade he is carrying was previously an Edgedancer's, he didn't attract cultivationspren as other KR attract their respective spren and he just happened to go through Shadesmar, otherwise he would've never met Mayalaran.

There is no need to go through mental gymnastics, because it doesn't need Adolin to become an Edgedancer and bond Maya, in order to revive her. That's just a general assumption that's being tossed around without any rational basis. She is dead people. She cannot bond at this point. Do not compare with Syl, she was already bonded to Kaladin and the bond was deteriorating, that's a whole different case.

The case for Adolin becoming an Edgedancer far predates the fact his Blade is an Edgedancer Blade. The argument never relied on his Blade, always on his character. The fact his Blade turned out to be an Edgedancer Blade was just the icing on the cake, but honestly, the theory never needed it to exist.

Hence, no one is trying to make Adolin fit those ideals, the narrative is already telling us he is. I find the argument is actually the opposite, some are trying to make him not fit because they like the alternate denouement better.

2 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

love of adventure, novelty, or oddity - check : Adolin is adventurous of course, curious about Shallan the first time he sees her because she looked unusual and actually the only nobleman that states that he likes Wit (and he is definitely an oddity)

capricious, frustrating and unreliable - check: Killing Sadeas is argued as a capricious move, teaching Shallan to fight with a Shardblade is frustrating and unreliable since he was tailoring a new suit instead of helping the Kholinar populace

Willshapers would "probably be ok" with Adolin killing Sadeas - check: Yes, someone actually asked this back before we learned that his blade was a cultivationspren, guess why, because he actually fit that order characteristics better

had an affinity to the "far realm of spren."  - check : maybe this explains why there are all this hints that he just might revive Maya

I disagree. Adolin hates novelty and adventure. He doesn't seek the unknown nor does he enjoy exploring new countries. On the contrary, he is unsettled by the changes he sees within the world, he isn't excited about it. See how Eshonai was written out within the prologue, now that's a Willshaper: Adolin never once exhibit the same curiosity nor the same desire to know strangers. He is more of the opposite.

Adolin is not capricious nor unreliable: he is the exact opposite. He is extraordinarily reliable: you can depend on him with your life and he will never falter. See how Eshonai is said to be completely unreliable, unable to complete task and not being trusted with much. The is basically the anti-Adolin whom can be relied to at all times. The fact he murdered Sadeas doesn't make him either frustrating nor unreliable: it was an act of pure loyalty towards his family.

Him behavior into Kholinar do sound frustrating, but I would argue it is more a side effect of him not getting any viewpoints, The fancy suit allegedly is a means by which Adolin tried to gain some control because he is unsettled by the "novelty" around him. Him teaching Shallan how to fight was him trying to make an unknown fearful situation into one he can understand and rely to.

Adolin has no affinities with the far realm of spren: he hated it and he couldn't sense what the spheres represented.

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

My biggest issue with the Willshaper idea is that, outside of the specific circumstances of his failed relationships which stem from his own issues, he is not unreliable. He can be counted on for pretty much anything else. 

Aye.

36 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

I'm not sure I agree that in general we are arguing whether Adolin could or could not become an Edgedancer. Speaking for myself at least, that is not what I was arguing. In my mind of course it is a possibility, the question is whether I think it is probable, or put another way do I think that is what Brandon's intention was in showing us something unusual happening with Maya? You go through a great deal of arguments that I have read before so I get what has convinced you, and again I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. I come at the whole question from a different perspective and I will briefly try to explain that just so I am clear. 

I am most definitely arguing as to whether of not Adolin could become an Edgedancer, nor should nor will. I agree his story has not been written out just yet and he may never become an Edgedancer. However, if this happens, I do not think it will be because he is unfitting, but because reviving a dead-Blade is super hard and he may not pull it off. I also do not see what would prompt Adolin to start saying oaths: he doesn't believe he is worthy of being a Radiant, what would need to change for him to embark unto an unknown journey towards becoming a Radiant with a dead-Blade to boot it all? If his spren came to him through normal means, then he'd have her counsel, her voice to guide him but without it, can Adolin make the journey alone? Also, the fact he has his broken half-Nahel Bond with Maya likely also means no other sprens will come near him.

Hence, Adolin becoming an Edgedancer is not a done deal, not yet.

46 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

I really come at this from a narrative perspective, as in why does Brandon choose to show this or that, to help me try to figure out where he is going from here. To take just one other example that is used as evidence for Adolin the Edgedancer. Why did Brandon choose to show Adolin helping the prostitute? I believe strongly that the primary reason he showed this was for Kaladin to witness a lighteyes displaying decency, treating a darkeyes with dignity, so that Kaladin could start to reassess his prejudices. Kaladin at that time believed all lighteyes to be terrible people, particularly high ranking lighteyed officers. So having Adolin go out of his way to help the darkeyed prostitute and treat her with kindness was a first and very important step in Kaladin getting over his hatred of lighteyes. The relationship between Adolin and Kaladin has progressed hugely since due to their subsequent interactions and they now have a pretty awesome friendship and Kaladin no longer hates lighteyes. Could there be a secondary reason for that scene in relationship to Adolin as a potential Edgedancer? Sure, but there's really no need for there to be from a narrative standpoint. 

From a narrative perspective I would like and expect to see Adolin have some kind of impact, but personally I don't feel it has to happen through him becoming a Radiant. I don't expect that he is going to do nothing but stay stagnant as Dalinar's son, Shallan's husband and Kaladin's friend for the next 7 books. But I don't get the sense that Brandon is writing another proto-Radiant arc for him. For instance, I love the idea that @PhineasGage brought in about a potential Greek tragedy like arc (I'm a former theatre major so I'm a sucker for classic tragedy), and I could see other possibilities as well. 

Narrative usually have more than one purpose. As I said in my earlier post, Adolin saving the prostitute does having for main purpose to fuel Kaladin's character development, but it also fleshes out Adolin by making him the man to step down for someone else. 

As for what Brandon intends to do, it is unclear to me. There are strong chances he won't do anything with Adolin more than he has already done, so I agree with you here, but then again, it more or less ruins the purpose of having him interact with Maya. Those scenes purely were about Adolin and I honestly do not see what it would add to the story to have the event be a mere by-product of the perpendicularity. Why have Maya save Adolin, speak her name and her start to form a bond with Adolin is it is only to take great leaps to explain it was all meaningless? It just makes little sense for Brandon to have written out those scenes for this sole purpose which isn't the intuitively obvious one.

[BraidedRose]

@Calderis sorry, but again, I was not saying the perpendicularity (or stormlight or anything else for that matter) healed Maya. I’m saying I’m not convinced she needs to have been healed for her to speak faintly in Adolin’s mind under the circumstances we saw. We still have a difference, but I’m just clarifying what that difference is because you seem to be arguing against a point I didn’t make.

5 minutes ago, maxal said:

I am most definitely arguing as to whether of not Adolin could become an Edgedancer, nor should nor will.

 

You are arguing on that question, I was not. We are arguing on two different questions.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, BraidedRose said:

@Calderis sorry, but again, I was not saying the perpendicularity (or stormlight or anything else for that matter) healed Maya. I’m saying I’m not convinced she needs to have been healed for her to speak faintly in Adolin’s mind under the circumstances we saw. We still have a difference, but I’m just clarifying what that difference is because you seem to be arguing against a point I didn’t make.

Fair enough. I do think the perpendicularity could accomplish what you're saying, but only in the case that she were already healing... So I'll agree to disagree. 

[insert_anagram_here]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

@insert_anagram_here cohesion allows the manipulation of parts that are already there, and transportation is... Transportation.

How do those fix the hole that is in the Spren? The reason I push for a Nahel bond being the only way to heal Maya... Is because the bond is what was ripped out and created the hole in them, and as far as we've been shown a Nahel bond is the only thing that can fill that hole, hence why reviving them is so much easier with their original bond partner. 

A Nahel bond is created after the spren is attracted to a Knight Radiant candidate. Why do you purposefully skip this step? This is bias right here.

Dead Shardblades scream when they are touched and this denotes that they are used against their own will. I think Brandon emphasizes this in order to cause sentiments of disgust or at least worry on the readership. 

So 1) there needs to be an attraction first and 2) Maya has been used by Adolin against her will. Why does this make people feel giddy?! This is the wrong reaction here.

I'm going to try and use your method of persuasion here, using a WoB *shivers* (and believe me I feel filthy by doing this because this is not my style)

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/223/#e6053

Jerich

Is the Hoed from Elantris similar to the state of [dead] Shardblades? If so is it possible to awaken a Shardblade if the bearer speaks the oaths of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

The status is... I would say not as similar as you're probably thinking, but it does have a similarity in that two bacteria causing a disease are both caused by a bacteria, so there is a similarity there.

I can imagine a sequence where a Shardblade would be reawakened, but I think it would be very difficult.

It's not the same that they're in the middle of a transition, like in Elantris.

Jerich

Oh, okay. So you have to actually... it'd be harder.

Brandon Sanderson

It'd be harder, yeah. It's not the same, they're not in the middle of a transition. They have had something ripped from them, and it's very painful and it's left them mostly mindless.

Jerich

So they have to have that something added back?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So what you've got going on: the spren gain-- the bond lets them have sentience in the physical plane, like they can think and all these things, and when that was ripped away from them-- imagine... (this is a very bad metaphor, it's the first one coming to my head though): imagine you had wetwear, you had a head-jack or something like that, and someone just ripped it out of your head. 

Jerich

*stunned/horrified*

Oh.

Brandon Sanderson

Instead of surgically operating it out. Like that's what's happened, a piece of their soul's been ripped off.

The above Wob denotes that there could be a sort of 'surgical operation' between physical and cognitive realm that could fix a deadeye spren.

We know that Surges aren't exactly the same between the two orders that have them, there is usually a different kind of aspect to the power itself. Yes, Willshapers have Transportation, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will Transport themselves since they are not 'else callers'. They are fixers and/or engineers. If they can manipulate mater on a molecular level (Cohesion) and the Transportation ability gives them "the affinity to the far realm of spren." , a joint use of the two powers could mean an upgraded Cohesion in the Physical and Congnitive realm.

Yes, this is purely speculative and you will disagree. But I disagree that Adolin is Edgedancer material too. So here we are.

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

As to him fitting the Willshapers, again I would agree if we were speaking about Adolin at the beginning of tWoK. It's where I placed him originally before I converted to the Edgedancer theory (which was before I knew his Blade was an Edgedancer spren, by the way). 

My biggest issue with the Willshaper idea is that, outside of the specific circumstances of his failed relationships which stem from his own issues, he is not unreliable. He can be counted on for pretty much anything else. 

I never said  'Adolin is unreliable because of his failed relationships'. We are having a healthy debate here, there is no need to attribute arguments to me that I've never said, just to defame the validity of my point of view. This is disrespectful actually (and even if it's done constantly on these forums I still do not accept it). Of course he has a relationship by the end of OB, so yes, he has grown since WoK, even despite the fact that the healthiness of that relationship is still arguable.

But I'm curious how would you describe "the act of refusing to be king" as? It's certainly does not denote a reliable person. He obviously knew he was in line in the throne beforehand, because from his own POV in book, it's the first thing he thinks about when he realizes that Elhokar is dead. I think it's a legit argument to call it capricious actually. And I'm sure Dalinar finds frustrating that his favourite son is abdicating the throne.

Quote

Little is currently known about the Willshapers. They were said to be varied in personality, but generally possessing a "love of adventure, novelty, or oddity." Willshapers are mentioned as being capricious, frustrating and unreliable.

And if people were so sure that he would become an Edgedancer why isn't there a WoB question "What would the Edgedancers think about Adolin killing Sadeas?" huh? Because I'm pretty sure, if we had that answer we wouldn't have this discussion right now.

Certainly, sticking a knife in an unarmed's eye isn't exactly Loving or Healing, so I'm sitting here wondering why are the Divine Attributes of Edgedancers completely ignored in here.

[Guest]

I actually love the idea of Willshapers being something like engineers/tinkers/inventors, @insert_anagram_here.

In a way, inventing something is an adventure and a lot of it is just trying to find something that works. For that you have to be curious to find novelties, which you can then maybe harness in a fabrial (a machine would be our equivalent).

Actually, Venli was something like that back then. She was one researching and finding novel forms for the singers.

As for the surges, fabrials seem to be spren-powered. Maybe their Transportation surge works differently by not transporting them completely over to Shadesmar, but being able to transport willing spren over to the Physical Realm, so they can be used in fabrial engineering? 

Cohesion can be used to alter objects on a molecular level. So maybe that can be used to shape objects for use in their contraptions? Like where we would use a lathe or mill nowadays?

Maybe this needs a new thread...

[Calderis]

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

A Nahel bond is created after the spren is attracted to a Knight Radiant candidate. Why do you purposefully skip this step? This is bias right here.

Because attraction is kind of moot for a a dead spren. They're there whether they wish to be or not. There's no mind to attract. 

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Dead Shardblades scream when they are touched and this denotes that they are used against their own will. I think Brandon emphasizes this in order to cause sentiments of disgust or at least worry on the readership. 

Dead Shardblades scream when they are touched by a Radiant, because they are brought further to life and this forces them into a cycle of agony. For a non-radiant, they don't reach a level of being that they're capable of speech. 

When Kaladin touched Relis' blade in the arena, Relis heard it. If the blades screamed all the time, their wielder would hear them.

Quote

I'm going to try and use your method of persuasion here, using a WoB *shivers* (and believe me I feel filthy by doing this because this is not my style)

I'd appreciate it if you'd cut the direct insults, subtle as they are. Yes I use WoBs, because they are the words of the man writing this story. If that makes you feel dirty, then don't use them. If they don't matter to you, then fine, don't be convinced. I don't appreciate the implications that this form of argumentation is somehow inferior when the vast majority of the knowledge we have on the Cosmere is not present in the books. If you want to operate based solely off of what is in the books that's fine, that's your prerogative. I don't, as Brandon has chosen to share more information that he finds relevant. The amount of extra information that he's given us on various topics is already more than would happen if he writes consistently for the rest of his life. I refuse to just write that off. 

And on that WoB you quoted, I don't understand what about that has anything to do with the healing of the spren. The possible surgery it speaks of is in a clean and neat severing of the Nahel bond of a living Spren as compared to the violent and deadly ending that happens when oaths are broken.

For the surges, we've been told by both Brandon and Peter that the surges do have slight variations between orders, but that they are similar enough that they would look identical to an outside observer. Hence Skybreakers/Windrunners having seemingly identical flight, and why I fully believe that Renarin doesn't have normal Illumination at all, just the voidbinding version of that surge. 

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I never said  'Adolin is unreliable because of his failed relationships'. We are having a healthy debate here, there is no need to attribute arguments to me that I've never said, just to defame the validity of my point of view. This is disrespectful actually (and even if it's done constantly on these forums I still do not accept it). Of course he has a relationship by the end of OB, so yes, he has grown since WoK, even despite the fact that the healthiness of that relationship is still arguable.

I never attributed that to what you said. I did not put words in your mouth. I said that outside of that circumstance I don't see how he is unreliable. That is not the same thing. 

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

I actually love the idea of Willshapers being something like engineers/tinkers/inventors, @insert_anagram_here.

In a way, inventing something is an adventure and a lot of it is just trying to find something that works. For that you have to be curious to find novelties, which you can then maybe harness in a fabrial (a machine would be our equivalent).

Actually, Venli was something like that back then. She was one researching and finding novel forms for the singers.

As for the surges, fabrials seem to be spren-powered. Maybe their Transportation surge works differently by not transporting them completely over to Shadesmar, but being able to transport willing spren over to the Physical Realm, so they can be used in fabrial engineering? 

Cohesion can be used to alter objects on a molecular level. So maybe that can be used to shape objects for use in their contraptions? Like where we would use a lathe or mill nowadays?

Maybe this needs a new thread...

This is the reason that in world scholars and Vorinism have attributed "Builder" to Kalak and the Willshapers. 

I don't remember the exact wording, but there is a phrasing in Venli's final PoV that justifies her bonding with Timbre by this explanation. 

Eshonai may have been an explorer, but Venli was as well, just in the domain of knowledge. I personally think because of this that she fits Willshapers better than Eshonai did. 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Calderis