Shen (spoilers)

[Gancho]

Will Rlain (formerly Shen) become a Radiant Squire? Or is he already - any chance that's why he's able to resist becoming a viodbringer?

[Aminar]

I think he'll hide out in Urithiru during Everstorms. That said I don't think he's eligable for Radianthood. Instead he'll be our token listener, possibly helping rescue Eshonai and getting some Mateform time in with her...

[Kurkistan he/him]

Source:

JAMESW

Are all of the orders of Knights Radiant human?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

[Scott]

My expectation is that Rlain will help save some of the listeners, and keep their culture alive.  I believe that the group of Parshendi that fled from Eshonai's roundup will prove critical at some point.  I also believe that there are Honour- and Cultivation-granted forms similar to the (almost certainly) Odium-granted Stormform, Smokeform, etc.

[Pinpoint he/him]

Ug, I hope he doesn't become a squire. Or, I hope he is never called a squire. For some reason the name squire brings to mind pictures of little over eager children with poofy pants and leggings. Not sure why...

[Argent he/him]

My expectation is that Rlain will help save some of the listeners, and keep their culture alive.  I believe that the group of Parshendi that fled from Eshonai's roundup will prove critical at some point.  I also believe that there are Honour- and Cultivation-granted forms similar to the (almost certainly) Odium-granted Stormform, Smokeform, etc.

 

I don't know about that. My gut feeling is to agree, because it would make sense - it looks like the listeners' forms depend entirely on the spren they... bind with? trap? embrace? Whatever it is that they do with it. Do we know the spren for any of the "classic" Parshendi forms - war, nimble, work, mate? Work in particular strikes me as one that would require a spren, a Splinter, of Cultivation. 

[taveren he/him]

i don't think the everstorm will forceably change the Parshendi just the sprenless parshmen though i could be wrong

Edited March 7, 2014 by taveren

[Mr Horrible]

Yeah, I really don't think he'd fit as a squire.

 

It's entirely possible that Syl might remember an Parshendi form that required an Honour Spren though.

[zandi she/her]

I don't think he can become a radiant...

 

Parshendi spren bonds are likely different.

 

There's a discussion of it here started by Windrunner: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6396-parshendi-origins-theory/

 

but based on this:

The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt.
Our minds are too close to their realm
That gives us our forms, but more is then
Demanded by the smartest spren,
We can’t provide what the humans lend,
Though broth are we, their meat is men.
-From the Listener Song of Spren, 9th stanza

 

it doesn't seem like they can form a Nahel bond. 

[skaa he/him]

So, as the WoB that Kurkistan gave showed, there are no non-human Knights Radiant. And as the WoR quote that zandi gave showed, KR spren don't bond with the Listeners. Sounds definitive to me!

 

 

i don't think the everstorm will forceably change the Parshendi just the sprenless parshmen though i could be wrong

 

Eshonai was forcibly changed from warform to stormform even after she tried to back out. I doubt the Everstorm will care what the Parshendi in its path think.

Edited March 7, 2014 by skaa

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

It doesn't say they can't bond with KR spren. That may be what it means, but it may also mean that the Listeners simply provide too little for the spren's taste. In the latter case, then likely any forms with honorspren would not allow the spren any intelligence like a human does. I don't see why Listeners would only be able to make forms with one shard's spren, so it seem very plausible some form using them exists.

[Moogle]

I wonder if the dead spren in Shardblades could bond with a listener? Eshonai wasn't able to wear Plate during a highstorm, so she's probably never had her Blade out. It seems... possible.

 

Edit: Probably worth having its own thread.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Moogle

[skaa he/him]

It doesn't say they can't bond with KR spren. That may be what it means, but it may also mean that the Listeners simply provide too little for the spren's taste. In the latter case, then likely any forms with honorspren would not allow the spren any intelligence like a human does. I don't see why Listeners would only be able to make forms with one shard's spren, so it seem very plausible some form using them exists.

Yes. Note that the ones who refuse to bond with the Listeners are the KR spren. Not all spren that came from Honor are KR spren. In fact, the vast majority of emotionspren (which are from Honor) are probably not sentient enough to be KR spren, so the Listeners might be able to bond with those. That won't make them KR, though.

I suspect that some (if not all) of the five Listener forms they first discovered use non-sentient emotionspren. Rlain and the other uncorrupted Listeners will just have to discover other forms that are non-voidish but are still useful in battle. Perhaps Shallan can help them find clues in their songs.

Edited March 7, 2014 by skaa

[Argent he/him]

Eshonai was forcibly changed from warform to stormform even after she tried to back out. I doubt the Everstorm will care what the Parshendi in its path think.

I am not sure this is entirely true. She wanted stormform, but then quickly tried to back out. You could be correct, but it could also be the case that she just didn't back out quickly enough. She also had the spren ready and captured. The parshmen throughout Roshar will need to attract them.

[junior]

I don't think he can become a radiant...

 

 

But the question seems to be whether he can become a squire, not a knight.  Based on the bits at the end of WoR, it appears that becoming a squire doesn't require a Nahel Bond.  Instead, the squire needs to be linked to someone else who has the bond.

 

I think we don't yet have enough information on whether Rlain could become a squire.

 

 

Oh, and Eshonai's almost certainly alive, given that she was wearing shardplate, and Adolin survived a similar fall earlier in the book while wearing his.  If she was captured and hauled out of her plate, could she be forced to change to a different form?

[xbauks he/him]

I am not sure this is entirely true. She wanted stormform, but then quickly tried to back out. You could be correct, but it could also be the case that she just didn't back out quickly enough. She also had the spren ready and captured. The parshmen throughout Roshar will need to attract them.

They don't need to attract them. If you read the description of the Everstorm you'll see that there are red spren in abundance. Also if you notice the sharp change in behaviour in Eshonai you'll see that the voidspren are perfectly OK forcing others to do as they wish.

[skaa he/him]

I am not sure this is entirely true. She wanted stormform, but then quickly tried to back out. You could be correct, but it could also be the case that she just didn't back out quickly enough. She also had the spren ready and captured. The parshmen throughout Roshar will need to attract them.

You meant "the Parshendi need to attract them", right? Anyway, I hope you are right. I just fear that since the Everstorm will indiscriminately transform parshmen, it will also do the same for the Parshendi (unless perhaps if they acquire forms that are immune to it).

Rlain being a squire sounds pretty awesome. I hope it's possible. WoB has it that the Parshendi's synchronized Rythms have something to do with Unity (which I'm assuming is what happens when you Diminish the Surge of Division). If a similar thing happens to KR squires, then Rlain would feel right at home with it.

[Scott]

Sorry, I wasn't really clear before.  I agree that the listeners can't bond the radiant-class of spren.  I was thinking of gloryspren, or lifespren, or windspren; spren that are probably honour- or cultivation-based but not sentient.  

[Argent he/him]

@xbauks, I am not sure that's enough. You might be right, but the last few highstorms during the final countdown had stormspren inside them, both the Kaladin, Syl, and the Parshendi saw them. If Kaladin could see them as the storm was building up, there must have been enough of them there. So why would Eshonai need one captured if they were in such abundance?

 

No, I think for a listener to change forms, they actually need to willingly choose to attract the spren whose form they are interested in.

 

@skaa, I did mean parshmen. As the Everstorm sweeps Roshar, it will be the parshmen who might turn into Voidbringers / stormform, not the Parshendi. I should've used proper terminology though, I should've said: "the listeners with no form of spren, those known as the parshmen, would need to attract them."

[Edgedancer he/him]

The listeners didn´t want their gods to return but if anything counts as Odiums return to Roshar it would be the Everstorm. If listeners, Parshmen or whoever could refuse the Voidspren I doubt that it would have been such a big problem for them.

Furthermore, I doubt that simple Parshmen have the capacity to refuse a bond given how submissive they are.

[Argent he/him]

Ah, but we don't know enough to claim that voidspren can force the listeners to change forms. We know that once a listerner embraces stormform, then it gets damnation near impossible to resist Odium - both Eshonai's experience with the Rhythm of Peace and the song epigraphs suggest that. But can voidspren force their way into a listener, make them embrace stormform? I don't think so - otherwise the Parshendi gods would've never released their hold on the listeners; they would've just kept forcing voidspren into them.