Harmony's Lost Metal

[RShara]

Okay...technically it is possible, but extremely unlikely, for both plot and meta reasons.

Edited February 5, 2018 by RShara

[animalia]

Well it’s not impossible but given that in White Sand 2 we meet someone named Trell and White Sand is the Homeworld of Autonomy. My bets are on Autonomy.

[+Ark1002]

This could be a misleader, adn the focus is not just 'The Lost Metal', but instead the god metals in general, as they were all sort of lost. No more lerasium, atium (possibly) no longer forming, Trellium, not even known. Who knows?

[+Ark1002]

Plus, the villian could very well be one of the unknown shards. We only know ten shards. There is most likely (not definitely) sixteen.

[Calderis]

Just now, Ark1002 said:

Plus, the villian could very well be one of the unknown shards. We only know ten shards. There is most likely (not definitely) sixteen.

Trellium is from a Shard we know. 

Quote

Chaos

I'm sorry Brandon, you might RAFO me.

*written* For the metal in Bleeder, is it from a Shard we know?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh no… You drove all this way, that's what makes me. Eric comes and he's like--

Chaos

You RAFO'd me at Words of Radiance--

Brandon Sanderson

I know.

Chaos

--I asked you a question that was too much.

Brandon Sanderson

…you push, yeah… There you are you got your answer. You got me.

*writes* Yes.

Footnote: at that time we knew 9 Shards: Devotion, Dominion, Preservation, Ruin, Odium, Honor, Cultivation, Endowment and Autonomy
source

 

[Weltall]

39 minutes ago, Ark1002 said:

Plus, the villian could very well be one of the unknown shards. We only know ten shards. There is most likely (not definitely) sixteen.

As mentioned, we already know that 'Trellium' is from a Shard we knew about at the time the metal first appeared. That probably rules out Ambition since we'd seen Threnody but had no idea it used to be associated with a Shard (and Brandon had actually said it wasn't for a while) which leaves us a strictly defined pool of suspects. The evidence points most strongly to Autonomy, with various reasons to suspect that it's not Odium (or if he's involved, it's only indirectly) with the other Shards all being different shades of unlikely or impossible. And yes, there are definitely sixteen Shards. Brandon has said it repeatedly, Khriss has said it in-universe as well and so has Hoid, who was there when the Shattering happened. I think they're in a position to know. xD

PS. Double-posting is frowned upon. Next time just edit your most recent post.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Weltall

[Bigmikey357]

Spoiler

There was a bit in BoM where Sazed tells Wax that he's Harmony's agent of Ruin. What if he means that literally and that's where he's pouring the extra power into to keep him at 50/50? He could be doing this with other agents throughout Scadrial as a sort of work around. He finds it hard to act because he's made up of parts that are polar opposites, so he throws a pinch of extra investiture at his chosen people and trusts them to push forward his agenda.

Just thinking of possible places for a Vessel to stash extra power intentionally instead of letting it accumulate naturally in a Shardpool. BoM spoiler behind the tag.

[MountainKing]

I was thinking about a Trellium when it occurred to me that just because the God metal is Trellium does mean it's Trellium leading the attack. Atium was stolen from Ruin, so what's stopping another avatar of Autonomy or a shard from stealing some of The investiture, making a God metal and then pretend to be Trell.

[Bigmikey357]

All of Autonomy's avatars are still Autonomy. Basically Trell would be stealing investiture from herself.

As far as another Shard taking it, wouldn't that Shard's native Investiture resist Autonomy's? I honestly don't know what happens when shards touch each other. Pres/Ruin were polar opposites so they repelled each other but we don't know about other shards. But even if it's possible for another Shard to steal Autonomy's Investiture and forge a Trellium spike, that spiked creature becomes open to Trell's influence, basically becoming Trell's agent regardless of the other Shard's intentions.

[MountainKing]

10 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

All of Autonomy's avatars are still Autonomy. Basically Trell would be stealing investiture from herself.

As far as another Shard taking it, wouldn't that Shard's native Investiture resist Autonomy's? I honestly don't know what happens when shards touch each other. Pres/Ruin were polar opposites so they repelled each other but we don't know about other shards. But even if it's possible for another Shard to steal Autonomy's Investiture and forge a Trellium spike, that spiked creature becomes open to Trell's influence, basically becoming Trell's agent regardless of the other Shard's intentions.

Trellium's special property is that it resists all things trying to influence a the spiked person using holes in their souls.

[Calderis]

53 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

Trellium's special property is that it resists all things trying to influence a the spiked person using holes in their souls.

It just helps them hide. If you know where they are they're still spiked. 

Quote

Argent

Was Harmony unable to find [Bleeder] because the spike was made of this metal?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. The spike was what prevented him from being able to find her.

Argent

It wasn't an ability granted by the spike.

Brandon Sanderson

No.

Argent

It was just the material.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

source

But the moment she had a second spike she was still able to be fully controlled, and it takes two spikes to control a Kandra, so it offered no protection from that. 

Quote

ArgentSun

So how many spikes did Paalm have before the end? Asked in Chicago, you said to follow-up after tour.

Peter Ahlstrom

Paalm was only using one spike at a time, all of them made from the unknown metal.

source

 

[MountainKing]

I still think it might not be Trell just because at the end of Bands of Mourning, the enemy shard's "faceless immortals" were mind controlled civilians and Trell is an avatar of Autonomy, and I think that mind controlling people would be against his intent.

[Bigmikey357]

1 hour ago, MountainKing said:

I still think it might not be Trell just because at the end of Bands of Mourning, the enemy shard's "faceless immortals" were mind controlled civilians and Trell is an avatar of Autonomy, and I think that mind controlling people would be against his intent.

So you believe it's possible that one of the unknown Shards may be masquerading as Autonomy's avatar that we call Trell? I don't know if it makes narrative sense to introduce another Shard that we have had no clues to its existence. There have been indications of Autonomy's existence, even a book about one of her Shardworlds (2 if you count First of the Sun). Of course Brandon can do what he wants and we have to meet the other unknown Shards eventually, but we know that Autonomy deals in Avatars and that Trell is a known entity of Badvadin's pantheon. It'd be a hell of a way to introduce a new shard.

[MountainKing]

Yes

[Weltall]

That doesn't jive with Brandon's confirmation that 'Trellium' is metal from a Shard that we know. For a metal to work with Scadrian magic, the Shard would have to do something deliberate. Which means that you'd need to have Autonomy actively taking part in some things on Scadrial in order for those spikes to actually work, but to somehow not be involved in the specific instance at the end of Bands of Mourning. That's... just a bit strained.

As for controlling people being against Autonomy's Intent, bear in mind that we don't actually know what 'Autonomy' represents, something Brandon himself has pointed out. And whatever that Intent represents, it doesn't necessarily rule out doing things that technically go against the Intent in the short term in order to fulfill that Intent in the long term. Consider Ruin as the embodiment of entropy, who was still able to create things for the purpose of later destruction. Some Intents are clearly more flexible than others in that respect and Autonomy is a very flexible concept.

Edited July 4, 2018 by Weltall

[Calderis]

I feel the need to point back to my idea that we've been somewhat mislead. 

The names of the Shards that we have are the names attributed to them by/because if the first Vessels. 

The names that we know may not be what the intent actually is, which further clouds the meaning of ambiguous words like Autonomy...

Only quoting the relevant portion here due to OB spoilers. Click the source at your own risk. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9608

Quote

WinespringBrother [PENDING REVIEW]

Given that Shards, and perhaps, Ascended beings, have intents similar to their names.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

More that they have names similar to their intents.

The intent and the name we know are not perfectly aligned. 

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

I feel the need to point back to my idea that we've been somewhat mislead. 

The names of the Shards that we have are the names attributed to them by/because if the first Vessels. 

The names that we know may not be what the intent actually is, which further clouds the meaning of ambiguous words like Autonomy...

Only quoting the relevant portion here due to OB spoilers. Click the source at your own risk. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9608

The intent and the name we know are not perfectly aligned. 

Precisely. A single named attribute does not completely reflect the Shardic Intent as the Intent of a shard can be quite broad and can also experience some slight influence by the will of the Vessel. A shard such as Autonomy may believe in freeing people of their ties to society to grant them complete autonomy of their own lives. It could also seek to spread its control from world to world, creating an autonomous hive mind where agendas are unanimous. I feel like one of the primary messages Brandon is telling us with the Shards is that divine attributes when pushed to their extreme and isolated from the attributes which give it context can be a very bad thing.

[MountainKing]

10 hours ago, Weltall said:

That doesn't jive with Brandon's confirmation that 'Trellium' is metal from a Shard that we know. For a metal to work with Scadrian magic, the Shard would have to do something deliberate. Which means that you'd need to have Autonomy actively taking part in some things on Scadrial in order for those spikes to actually work, but to somehow not be involved in the specific instance at the end of Bands of Mourning. That's... just a bit strained.

As for controlling people being against Autonomy's Intent, bear in mind that we don't actually know what 'Autonomy' represents, something Brandon himself has pointed out. And whatever that Intent represents, it doesn't necessarily rule out doing things that technically go against the Intent in the short term in order to fulfill that Intent in the long term. Consider Ruin as the embodiment of entropy, who was still able to create things for the purpose of later destruction. Some Intents are clearly more flexible than others in that respect and Autonomy is a very flexible concept.

I just want to point out that Perservation stole a bit of Ruin and the changed it affect on Allomancy.

[Calderis]

58 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

I just want to point out that Perservation stole a bit of Ruin and the changed it affect on Allomancy.

He changed the way the mists worked to snap Seers. 

The Shards weren't able to choose the effects of their own metals. He definitely didn't change atium. 

Edited July 4, 2018 by Calderis

[MountainKing]

22 minutes ago, Calderis said:

He changed the way the mists worked to snap Seers. 

The Shards weren't able to choose the effects of their own metals. He definitely didn't change atium. 

But Perservation still stole a piece of Ruin, which I think is what happened to Trell. Some other entity another avatar of Autonomy or another shard stole a piece a him. The WoB that says the metal is from a shard we know is still correct because it is from a shard we know, the investiture was just stolen from him.

[Bigmikey357]

If the metal was a different God metal than Trellium and another shardic entity lied and called it Trellium, that would make some sense. If another shardic entity stole some Trellium and used it to make new kandra then that becomes problematic for that other shardic entity because that entity wouldn't be in control of the kandra they made. The entity that controls that kandra would be Trell aka Badvadin aka Autonomy. Why would a different shard use a spike from Autonomy's pantheon knowing that they would not be able to control the tool they made? The only way that could possibly work out is if this unknown shard and Trell had an alliance. And if they had an alliance then what does Trell get out of it? Trell doesn't need another entity to do what has been done. Unless you're proposing that yet another Shard invested in Scadrial besides Ruin, Preservation and Autonomy. YMMV but for me? I don't buy it.

[MountainKing]

55 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

If the metal was a different God metal than Trellium and another shardic entity lied and called it Trellium, that would make some sense. If another shardic entity stole some Trellium and used it to make new kandra then that becomes problematic for that other shardic entity because that entity wouldn't be in control of the kandra they made. The entity that controls that kandra would be Trell aka Badvadin aka Autonomy. Why would a different shard use a spike from Autonomy's pantheon knowing that they would not be able to control the tool they made? The only way that could possibly work out is if this unknown shard and Trell had an alliance. And if they had an alliance then what does Trell get out of it? Trell doesn't need another entity to do what has been done. Unless you're proposing that yet another Shard invested in Scadrial besides Ruin, Preservation and Autonomy. YMMV but for me? I don't buy it.

The only reason why Bleeder joined the Set was to not be controlled, and other shards can control kandras, that why emotional allomancy affects them. And when I said that the other side had Faceless Immortals, I didn't mean they are making Kandra, but that they have agents that can blend in society like Kandra, the reason why I called them Faceless Immortals was that it what Suit called them.

[Bigmikey357]

It's my understanding that shards can only control the entities associated with them. Harmony can control his own kandra; they hold a part of the investiture keyed to him. He cannot control Bleeder. Speaking of Bleeder, it may not think it can be controlled but it has a spike; someone has its leash. If it gets out of line it can be yanked back. That's a weakness of Hemalurgy; the entity that is spiked becomes open to influence. The more spikes the more influence. How many spikes does Bleeder have?

[Spoolofwhool]

24 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

It's my understanding that shards can only control the entities associated with them. Harmony can control his own kandra; they hold a part of the investiture keyed to him. He cannot control Bleeder. Speaking of Bleeder, it may not think it can be controlled but it has a spike; someone has its leash. If it gets out of line it can be yanked back. That's a weakness of Hemalurgy; the entity that is spiked becomes open to influence. The more spikes the more influence. How many spikes does Bleeder have?

Spikes open an entity to any influence, not just from one particular shard. That's how Kelsier could talk to spiked people as well. Bleeder only had one spike though, which didn't open her soul enough to make her controllable.

[MountainKing]

I do think that Harmony can block other people from controlling his Kandras by applying the investiture to the holes in their souls without taking control of them