[OB] Are we sure Elhokar is [redacted]?

[Gnmish]

Dead.

Are we sure that Elhokar is dead?

It seems most everyone writing on here assumes he is most certainly gone.

Yes, we saw Moash scramble his majesty's brains with a speartip but seconds after that Aesudan/Yelig-nar turns up and Adolin, Kaladin & the squires flee like cremlings out of a horneaters cookpot.

We know regrowth (or some sort of fabrial) can ressurect the dead seemingly regardless of damage if it's very recent (Having your eyes burned out by a shardspear 300 feet in the air in the middle of a highstorm and smashing into the ground is about as dead as you can get)

We also know Yelig-nar has access to all surges (if you believe Hessi's Mythica) including regrowth and that Yelig-nar possession also seems to be very different to the fused in that the entity appears to hold all of its memories, prejudices, grudges etc ala Amaram.

I would suggest Aesudan/Yelig-nar would have the means, motive & opportunity to heal Elhokar, and recognise what a useful tool he would be in manipulating Dalinar, mess with the Alethi sucession and as an Alethi/Parsh propaganda prop.

So my question is : does anyone else think it's possible Elhokar will turn up in a later book?

 

Edited January 11, 2018 by Gnmish

[Bort he/him]

Interesting idea, but I think the answer is going to be 'no'.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Brandon won't bring back Elhokar, just as he won't bring back Eshonai or Amaram. He promised to chill on the resurrections. 

Furthermore, Aesudan is most likely dead too, since Yelig-Nar appears without a host at Thaylen City.

[lexoj]

1 hour ago, Gnmish said:

We know regrowth (or some sort of fabrial) can ressurect the dead seemingly regardless of damage if it's very recent (Having your eyes burned out by a shardspear 300 feet in the air in the middle of a highstorm and smashing into the ground is about as dead as you can get)

 

Brandon retconned the ending of WoR, where Kaladin doesn't kill Szeth during their last battle. But, what happens is Szeth realize he wasn't Truthless this whole time and breaks down. He then unbonds his Honorblade to commit suicide by freefalling to the ground.

 

Source:

https://brandonsanderson.com/three-stories-in-new-formats/

Read the Words of Radiance section at the end.

Edited January 11, 2018 by lexoj

[Yata he/him]

52 minutes ago, lexoj said:

 

Brandon retconned the ending of WoR, where Kaladin doesn't kill Szeth during their last battle. But, what happens is Szeth realize he wasn't Truthless this whole time and breaks down. He then unbonds his Honorblade to commit suicide by freefalling to the ground.

 

Source:

https://brandonsanderson.com/three-stories-in-new-formats/

Read the Words of Radiance section at the end.

The scene changed but it's still canon for the showed mechanics, the Regrowth could heal that

Edited January 11, 2018 by Yata

[Stark he/him]

As for Elhokar, if you re-read the scene, you will see that Moash pierces him through the chest before he completes the first ideal.  As we have seen, power efficiency (See Kaladin in Shadesmar talking about how much more benefit he gets from Stormlight than at the beginning) and healing factor of Radiants tie directly to their order and the number of Ideals sworn.  Given that Elhokar had accomplished enough of the first ideal to start glowing, but had not confirmed the oath, his healing factor would be minimal.

 

Moash then stands on his throat and spears him through the eye.  And keeps the spear there until the glow goes out.  Kaladin watches the glow die.

 

So Elhokar is well and truly dead at that point, his healing factor is expended.

 

As for regrowth, yes, that could be possible, but not probable.  No Radiants capable of the Surge of Progression were present.  Kholinar has no fabrials capable of that.  If they did, we would have a) heard about it, or b ) seen it at the shattered plains, where it would have been most useful.  Even if they did have it, it would not be in use,, as it would directly attract the screamers and the Fused.  And we would have heard about it in the wall guard, being used to fix wounds taken by the guards.  

 

And Odium has no use for that particular proto-Radiant, so I don't see the fused, or Yelig-Nar-Aesudan healing the King she just called a useless fool.

 

So nope.  Sad as it is, I can see no path for Elhokar to live, unless someone was present in Shadesmar to grant him CS status.  And when our plucky heroes transitioned to Shadesmar, we saw nothing but the spren of Odium.  No Cultivation swooping in to save the king that couldn't.

 

Which sucks, it was a compelling redemption arc, or could have been.

[lexoj]

38 minutes ago, Yata said:

The scene changed but it's still canon for the showed mechanics, the Regrowth could heal that

Not disagreeing that Regrowth can heal that, but just pointing out that the extent of Szeth's death wasn't as serious as OP suggested and making sure more people know about change in continuity.

[StormingTexan he/him]

On top of what has already been said one thing I do not think Brandon will do even if he decides to bring back someone that is apparently dead is leave if for another book. In the case of Jasnah and Szeth both were seen alive again in the same book they seemingly died in. I think that is one consistency we can expect form Brandon.  

[JPark317]

I agree with what else has been said above, I would also like to point out that Elhokar’s Shardblade appearing next to him after Moash finishes stabbing him is pretty concrete proof that he is dead. If he was not dead, the Blade would not have appeared. 

[Yata he/him]

24 minutes ago, JPark317 said:

I agree with what else has been said above, I would also like to point out that Elhokar’s Shardblade appearing next to him after Moash finishes stabbing him is pretty concrete proof that he is dead. If he was not dead, the Blade would not have appeared. 

I believe noboby was arguing he actually didn't die in the physical sense, The Blades spawn moments after the "death" but at that point the former Shardbearer isn't yet Beyond (pun intended) recovery.

2 hours ago, lexoj said:

Not disagreeing that Regrowth can heal that, but just pointing out that the extent of Szeth's death wasn't as serious as OP suggested and making sure more people know about change in continuity.

Well the mechanic of the scene shows that someone killed by a Shardblade and then Healed after some seconds is still able to return. Of course Szeth isn't a standard human anymore. He held the Honorblade for years and tap from Investiture intensively...So his "recovering time" is probably far longer than a regular dude.
By the way, you have right to the need to remember the continuity change....Often I forget the change for example. Because I read it in the old way

[Rainier]

3 hours ago, lexoj said:

Brandon retconned the ending of WoR, where Kaladin doesn't kill Szeth during their last battle.

I've never read this version and choose to believe it never happened. First edition book sitting in my room says Szeth died from a Shardblade and by god that's how he died.

I would be disappointed if Elhokar survived. It was clearly meant to be a death, and a brutal one at that. Let it be what it was meant to be.

[VladJunior]

A more interesting question might be, is there enough investiture attached to Moash's spear from Elhokar's blood to constitute a decent hemalurgic spike and who did Moash stab next? Did the spear tip break off? What happens if you stab Kaladin through the heart with a spike and then place it appropriately on someone else in a rather quick fashion? Would they become a Windrunner? Would part of Kaladin's bond with Syl be broken? I want to see more Hemalurgy enter the Stormlight Archive from travelling Scadrial characters, i.e. Ghostbloods. I know there is speculation that the knife Moash used on Jezrien was a spike that was made specifically to trap Rosharan investiture. Maybe the type of spike required varies per order?

[MonsterMetroid]

18 minutes ago, Yata said:

By the way, you have right to the need to remember the continuity change....Often I forget the change for example. Because I read it in the old way

Yeah it is pretty freaking hard to read it the new way I feel like when both  my hard cover and my audiobook both read it the old way... I mean you think they could at least release an update for the audiobook. I dont care too much honestly cause the old way still felt really windrunner to me because he couldnt let szeth go unless he promised under oath to not attack dalinar or the others.

[Furry-And-Lovable-Grover he/him]

4 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Yeah it is pretty freaking hard to read it the new way I feel like when both  my hard cover and my audiobook both read it the old way... I mean you think they could at least release an update for the audiobook. I dont care too much honestly cause the old way still felt really windrunner to me because he couldnt let szeth go unless he promised under oath to not attack dalinar or the others.

Absolutely. I was totally okay with Kaladin killing Szeth. He's a soldier, it's not the first time he's had a body on the pointy end of his spear because of a mission. More than an okay ending to that conflict.

[Elerubard]

Considering Dalinar sees him in the perpendicularity? He's probably dead.

[MonsterMetroid]

1 minute ago, Crazy1993 said:

Considering Dalinar sees him in the perpendicularity? He's probably dead.

Wait really? Does someone have a quote for this part? Is he possibly a cognitive shadow that dalinar sees?

[Elerubard]

1 minute ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Wait really? Does someone have a quote for this part? Is he possibly a cognitive shadow that dalinar sees?

It's been a few weeks since I looked, but I want to say it's withina few paragraphs of the bit with Evi.

[Weltall]

34 minutes ago, VladJunior said:

A more interesting question might be, is there enough investiture attached to Moash's spear from Elhokar's blood to constitute a decent hemalurgic spike and who did Moash stab next?

You have to intend to create a spike, you can't do it by accident. And you have to hit just the right point in the victim's body. And then you have to get it into a recipient before too much of the charge decays. And surgebinding has been noted to be a system that's hard to capture with hemalurgy due to it being bond-based (much the same's said of spiking for an Aviar talent) and since he hadn't even finished swearing the First Ideal, Elhokar wouldn't have much to offer there, aside from the 'human powers'. Literally the only way that could work would be if Odium knows enough of hemalurgy to provide Moash the necessary intent and he was directly controlling him at the moment he struck.

So yeah, it's extremely unlikely that Moash created a hemalurgic spike there. Even the dagger he kills Jezrien with is only mentioned to use a similar fundamental and even there, we don't have any evidence that he was being guided like he'd need to create a 'proper' spike.

[RShara she/her]

24 minutes ago, Crazy1993 said:

It's been a few weeks since I looked, but I want to say it's withina few paragraphs of the bit with Evi.

Sorry, I looked over this part and don't see it.  There's a part where Dalinar *hopes* to see Elhokar, but doesn't, is about it.

Quote

Elhokar? Dalinar thought. But no one else came through the column of light. And he knew. Knew, somehow, that the king was not coming.

He closed his eyes, and accepted that grief. He had failed the king in many ways.

Stand up, he thought. And do better.

 

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

By the way, you have right to the need to remember the continuity change....Often I forget the change for example. Because I read it in the old way

I intentionally forget the continuity change because is crap. 

[Cosmé he/him]

I like it.

This could make for surreal interactions between the heros and the Odium cast, particularly if the Odium avatar no longer deals directly with the main characters.

I’m sorry, but my inner Star Trek fan can’t help but post this.

Imagine Elokhar, decked out in spikes and a Shardplate, demanding surrender from his own uncle and the Radiants. it probably won’t happen, since Brandon has an ~80% track record of letting deaths stick, but it would still be so awesome. 

[StormingTexan he/him]

1 hour ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Yeah it is pretty freaking hard to read it the new way I feel like when both  my hard cover and my audiobook both read it the old way... I mean you think they could at least release an update for the audiobook. I dont care too much honestly cause the old way still felt really windrunner to me because he couldnt let szeth go unless he promised under oath to not attack dalinar or the others.

Also last time I checked (which was fairly recently) the kindle version is also the original scene. 

I also choose to ignore the new scene. I never understood what was so wrong with Kaladin killing Szeth. He was protecting Dalinar from an assassin. 

[Elerubard]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

Sorry, I looked over this part and don't see it.  There's a part where Dalinar *hopes* to see Elhokar, but doesn't, is about it.

 

Oh, so it's refering to Shallan and Co. getting out of Shadesmar and not the part where the dead are talking to him?

[RShara she/her]

That part is, yeah.  He didn't even know Elhokar was dead (for sure) up till that point.  I'm not seeing any other reference, sorry. 

[Leyrann]

I don't think the problem with the WoR ending is wheter or not Kaladin killing Szeth is okay, but rather that Szeth suicides upon realizing he was never Truthless. Basically, it's about Szeth's character arc, not Kaladin's character arc.