[OB] [Warbreaker] Painting in Shadesmar

[AC12]

So reading through Oathbringer I noticed more connections to the Cosmere as a whole than any other book, particularly in regards to Warbreaker. Most of these have already been discussed and maybe this one has too, but one that jumped out at me was when Kaladin was looking at the painting in the market that came from the Court of the Gods. In it Kaladin saw the Odium's champion with nine shadows. The description of the painting reminded me of the painting that Lightsong saw of the Red Panther in Warbreaker. If I remember correctly Scoot described the painting as being abstract and showing something unique to whomever was looking at it. In both cases the painting was described as swirls of red and black. It also wasn't destroyed because Lightsong liked it. Could this same painting have somehow made its way to Shadesmar? At the very least it has to have been done by the same artist right? Could the artist be working with some sort of Investiture to make these paintings? Your thoughts please. 

[Vortaan]

Pretty sure it's the same painting myself. Lightsong didn't have it destroyed, and after his death who knows what would have happened to it.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

@AC12 and @Vortaan, I looked into this and posted about this on a different thread, and I don't think it's the same painting.

The post includes descriptions of both paintings from both Oathbringer and Warbreaker, the one in WB doesn't have any white paint. They sound very similar in execution, so they are quite probably by the same painter.

 

Edited January 9, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[StormingTexan]

Man I thought for sure it was the same painting except the "white" it is pretty much a perfect description. 

One thought though could the "white" Kaladin sees actually just be a really really light shade of red that Lightsong was able to distinguish as red because of his heightening? I know this is a stretch and I am grasping at straws here. It seemed like it was very rare for a painting to not be burned though and we know this one was. I'd say it at least has to be the same artist. 

I also think it is weird that if it wasn't why would Brandon RAFO it in the WoB? We know from OB that it was from the Court of Gods why keep it a secret? 

 

Quote

 

neithan

Does the painting from Nalthis seen by Kaladin appear elsewhere? Will it?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO!

 

 

#rafo

[Govir]

First off, I don't think it's the same painting. My mental image of the Warbreaker painting is basically a canvas covered in red paint, with a stroke of black in the top third. My mental image of the Oathbringer painting is a canvas that is mostly white (or unpainted) with a stroke of red and nine strokes of black. @hoiditthroughthegrapevine, since you seem to have investigated this, do you know if we get a size description of the Warbreaker painting? The Oathbringer one is described as small, which I take to mean something like 11"x14", where as the paintings in Warbreaker I've always pictured as much larger (like arm span wide),

Just now, StormingTexan said:

I also think it is weird that if it wasn't why would Brandon RAFO it in the WoB? We know from OB that it was from the Court of Gods why keep it a secret?

It could also mean that this is the first time we've seen the painting, but it will reappear later in the Stormlight Archives and have a higher significance. Or, it might show up in Warbreaker II (Nightblood?), and lead people to Roshar because of what they see in it.

[StormingTexan]

7 minutes ago, Govir said:

It could also mean that this is the first time we've seen the painting, but it will reappear later in the Stormlight Archives and have a higher significance. Or, it might show up in Warbreaker II (Nightblood?), and lead people to Roshar because of what they see in it.

Very possible. I'd suspect Nightblood of the two. I've read the scene like 8 times since OB and Lightsong does not reference the size of the painting. 

[AC12]

16 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Man I thought for sure it was the same painting except the "white" it is pretty much a perfect description. 

One thought though could the "white" Kaladin sees actually just be a really really light shade of red that Lightsong was able to distinguish as red because of his heightening? I know this is a stretch and I am grasping at straws here. It seemed like it was very rare for a painting to not be burned though and we know this one was. I'd say it at least has to be the same artist. #

I really like the idea of the white being a shade of red Kaladin can't distinguish. Its been awhile since I last read WB, maybe its time for a reread but I am seeing some good arguments that it is not the same painting. Definitely the same artist though I would think.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

@Govir and @StormingTexan I think Kaladin seeing this painting is to reinforce that he got a true glimpse from his vision with the sphere at Riino's lighthouse. These abstract paintings are conduits to Fortune, or a limited prescience about an upcoming momentous event. Here is the bit about the Painting that Lightsong sees in WB from the annotations for that chapter (spoilered because of length):

Spoiler

Lightsong Sees the Painting of the Red Battle

This is our first major clue (though a subtle one at the same time) that there might be something to the religion of the Iridescent Tones. Lightsong does see something in this painting that an ordinary person wouldn’t be able to. A well-crafted piece of art, made by a person channeling the Tones and connected to them via Breath, can speak to a Returned. Now, in this case, it doesn’t work quite like Llarimar says it does—Lightsong doesn’t actually prophesy about the black sword in the way the priest thinks. In other words, Lightsong isn’t prophesying that he’ll see the Black Sword (Nightblood) in the day’s activities.

Instead, Lightsong is seeing an image of a previous war, which is prophetic in that another Manywar is brewing—and in both cases, Nightblood will be important to the outcome of the battle.

So the painting has vague echoes of the possible future because the artist was "channeling the Tones and connected to them via Breath", so this imparts to the painting an innate predictive quality that someone who is suitably primed can percieve. This is probably drawing on Kaladin's Spiritual Connection to Dalinar to recieve this glimpse of Dalinar's possible future.

That hard RAFO that you quoted StorminTexan does make it seem like the painting that Kaladin sees is more important, and I do think it would be interesting if it cropped up in the book Nightblood as a reason for NB and so many Nalthians to suddenly end up on Roshar.

[Merlin Milvus]

It was mentioned that the painter was quite famous, which would suggest that it was probably a different panting. Also, the vendor appeared to know a bit about the painter, which would indicate that a brand new painting/an obviously stolen one would garner quite a bit of attention. However, I do like the idea that Vasher or someone stole/were given it and then sold it in Shadesmar.

[Palindrome]

So, as I stated in another thread, I am starting to read non-sa books. I'm starting with warbreaker and then moving to mistborn now that I have time and I have already purchased warbreaker. Anyone have suggestions on what I should pay attention to when reading warbreaker?

[RShara]

In Brandon's books, you kind of have to pay attention to everything lol. Vivenna's storyline is probably the trickiest, with Siri's interactions being second.  Vasher's importance will become clear pretty quickly.

 

For comparison, here are descriptions of the two paintings.

Lightsong

Quote

He gave this last painting the time it deserved. The canvas was thick with paint, every inch colored with large, fat strokes of the brush. The predominant hue was a deep red, almost a crimson, that Lightsong immediately knew was a red-blue mixture with a hint of black in it.

The lines of color overlapped, one atop another, almost in a progression. Kind of like . . . waves. Lightsong frowned. If he looked at it right, it looked like a sea. And could that be a ship in the center?

Kaladin

Quote

This one was sloppy by comparison. It looked like the painter had simply taken a knife covered in paint and slopped it onto the canvas, making general shapes.

Haunting, beautiful shapes. Mostly reds and whites, but with a figure at the center, throwing out nine shadows …

“This is a piece by Nenefra. It is said that each person who sees one of his masterworks sees something different. And to think, I charge such a minuscule price. Only three hundred broams’ worth of Stormlight! Truly, times are difficult in the art market.”

“I…”

Haunting images from Kaladin’s vision overlapped the stark wedges of paint on the canvas. He needed to reach Thaylen City. He had to be there on time—

 

So yeah, they're definitely different paintings, I think.  Even with Kaladin not having perfect color detection, I don't think he'd be able to see white/light red instsead of red-blue with a hint of black.

[Xhavez]

I just got to this part in OB with only having finished WB just last month.

I think the evidence does definitely hint more being different paintings. Red and black vs red and white.

I was really hoping it was the same painting - though it does sound at least it could certainly be the same artist right? I think the reference about being from the court of gods is just an odd thing to throw in there though — maybe just to certify it is something from Warbreaker?

[Pzychotixx]

we are seeing the picture from a persons perspective who has uncanny color perception in lightsong versus kal who definitely is untrained at the least. 

So it could stand that the white that kal sees is indeed a tone of crimson that is so dilited hed never notice the difference and that the crimson mixed with blue and black could very much qppear at best an extremely dark reddish purple color so it could qlso be that if he cant distinguish the white from red how would he be able to distinguish the dark red of the canvas from black.

My opinion on the sloppiness of the painting can be written off as simply kaladin being used to portraits while in warbreaker the art style is definitely way more of an abstract nature so to him itd look paint was just thrown around

[RShara]

But red and white, and red and black, are hard to get mixed up with each other, unless one is red/green colorblind

[teknopathetic]

On 2/9/2018 at 3:42 PM, Merlin Milvus said:

It was mentioned that the painter was quite famous, which would suggest that it was probably a different panting. Also, the vendor appeared to know a bit about the painter, which would indicate that a brand new painting/an obviously stolen one would garner quite a bit of attention. However, I do like the idea that Vasher or someone stole/were given it and then sold it in Shadesmar.

I wonder if any of the famous painters in Stormlight were invested with breath. 

Edited August 22, 2018 by teknopathetic

[autopilot_off]

Who is to say that if each person does see something different, why can they not see different colors? I remember a couple of years ago there was that debate over the color of a dress. Some people saw white/gold and some blue/black. Pretty opposite colors. In a fantasy world with investiture who knows what a painting could do.

Nice catch by they way. I am reading Oathbringer again and almost to that part. 

[Rainier]

I swear I asked Brandon this at ECCC in March, but I can't remember specifically and I'm pretty sure if I did he evaded an answer.

Here's the description of the most important painting in Warbreaker.

Quote

Red upon red, shades so subtle that the painter must have been of the Third Heightening at least. Violent, terrible reds, clashing against one another like waves—waves that only vaguely resembled men, yet that somehow managed to convey the idea of armies fighting much better than any detailed realistic depiction could have.

Chaos. Bloody wounds upon bloody uniforms upon bloody skin. There was so much violence in red. His own color. He almost felt as if he were in the painting—felt its turmoil shaking him, disorienting him, pulling on him.

The waves of men pointed toward one figure at the center. A woman, vaguely depicted by a couple of curved brushstrokes. And yet it was obvious. She stood high, as if atop a cresting wave of crashing soldiers, caught in mid-motion, head flung back, her arm upraised.

Holding a deep black sword that darkened the red sky around it.

And then the annotations from Brandon's site (spoilers for Warbreaker, but that's in the tag already)

Quote

The person Lightsong sees in the abstract painting is Shashara, Denth’s sister, one of the Five Scholars and a Returned also known as Glorysinger by the Cult of the Returned. She is seen here in Lightsong’s vision as she’s drawing Nightblood at the battle of Twilight Falls. It’s the only time the sword was drawn in battle, and Vasher was horrified by the result.

It’s because of her insistence on using the sword in battle, and on giving away the secret to creating more, that Vasher and she fought. He ended up killing her with Nightblood, which they’d created together during the days they were in love—he married her a short time before their falling out. That marriage ended with him slaying his own wife to keep her from creating more abominations like Nightblood and loosing them upon the world.

Nightblood is part of a much larger story in this world. He’s dropped casually into this particular book, more as a side note than a real focus of what’s going on, but his own role in the world is much, much larger than his supporting part here would indicate.

The key is the bit about a much larger story in this world. Of course Warbreaker is relatively old, and we're knee deep in exactly that story. And, I'll remind you, we've seen Nightblood unleashed in battle for the second time at Thaylen City. Nightblood is the Manhattan Project of the Cosmere, and Vasher/Warbreaker is Oppenheimer.

So the painting is Shadesmar is supposed to be from Nalthis, but not necessarily any one painting. I don't think that The Battle of Twilight Falls is the painting Kaladin sees, due to the descriptions of colors, but there's something nagging about how Shashara is Odium's champion that I can't shake...

Reading the annotations, this was a painting of a previous battle that foretold a new Manywar. Similarly, whatever Kaladin is seeing has already happened, and yet is also predicting what is ab out to happen. The fact that Lightsong sees the last time Nightblood was used in battle, and then Kaladin sees a painting that compells him to show up just in time to see it used again makes me think this is very important.

[Pagerunner]

5 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I swear I asked Brandon this at ECCC in March, but I can't remember specifically and I'm pretty sure if I did he evaded an answer.

Was this you:

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Was the painting the same painting in Warbreaker?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

*laughs gleefully*

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Because apparently it matters that it is or isn't

source

 

[Rainier]

6 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Was this you:

I think so, but I'm not certain. There are a few of my questions there, and they're all about Nightblood. But that was definitely the question I was thinking of.

[Baamice]

At the risk of beating a dead horse, it seems to me they could very well be the same painting. Lightsong's version has "fat strokes of the brush" while Kaladin's looks as though someone slopped the paint on with a knife. Though a knife may not leave brush strokes, kaladin is a soldier, not a painter, and could just be describing large strokes. Either way, small brushes weren't used in either painting.

 More importantly is the color description. I havent seen anyone mention that the red-blue with a hint of black color described in Lightsong's painting is said to be the predominant hue, meaning there are other colors not mentioned. I would imagine white to have less of an impact on someone from Lightsong's society, who with heightening would see colors so vibrantly. White is boring compared to a whole spectrum of colors. If you add a hint of anything to it, blue for instance, it's not white anymore. You would have a very faint, light blue...not a blueish white. Pointless to describe next to complex hues of color. Regardless, the use of the word "predominant" means that without a doubt, there is something unsaid on the canvas that is not the red/blue/black (being 1 single color) he describes for us.

Kaladin sees mostly reds and whites in his. We could say that the use of the word "mostly" is the same as the use of "predominantly". The red/blue with a hint of black that Lightsong calls "a deep red, almost crimson" would just be red to kaladin's eye. If we can venture that lightsong's painting had white that he didnt care to describe due to the overshadowing of the predominant hue, we can at least say the the paintings might have the same colors.

In Oathbringer, the proprietor points out how exceptionally rare it is that a painting makes it out of the Court of Gods without being burned. What are the odds that 2 paintings with the same color scheme escaped such a nearly certain ending? What are the odds that 2 paintings with even similar colors survived? Personally, it seems quite unlikely to me. Let me go a step even further and ask what are the odds that such an extremely rare fate would befall 2 paintings of similar(if not the very same) colors by the same artist? I find that this strongly supports the same painting theory, but we of course have no way of actually knowing how often a painting lives on.

Lastly, both men are drawn to an object at the center. Its established that nenefra's paintings are famous for being interpreted as different things by different people. Kaladin and Lightsong both see a different actual shape in a sea of abstractness, but it's important that they both see it in the same location on the canvas. Right in the center.

I submit that this is evidence that these are in fact one and the same painting. I'm sure this theory has holes so poke away! First time posting so I'm expecting it.

Here are the descriptions for reference.

Kaladin:

This one was sloppy by comparison. It looked like the painter had simply taken a knife covered in paint and slopped it onto the canvas, making general shapes.

Haunting, beautiful shapes. Mostly reds and whites, but with a figure at the center, throwing out nine shadows …

Lightsong:

The canvas was thick with paint, every inch colored with large, fat strokes of the brush. The predominant hue was a deep red, almost a crimson, that Lightsong immediately knew was a red-blue mixture with a hint of black in it.

The lines of color overlapped, one atop another, almost in a progression. Kind of like . . . waves. Lightsong frowned. If he looked at it right, it looked like a sea. And could that be a ship in the center?

Edited November 21, 2018 by Baamice

[RShara]

When Lharimar looked at the painting, he said he just saw random strokes of red. Not red and white or red and black. I really don't think they're the same painting. I tried to explain above

[Baamice]

I believe what you're referring to Is when llarimar says "...it's all just wild strokes of paint, to me."

Edited November 21, 2018 by Baamice

[RShara]

He said

Quote

“Don’t you see? You look at a painting and an entire image appears to your eyes. All I see is random strokes of red. The scene you describe—the things you see—are prophetic. You are a god.”

 

[Quantus]

Personally, I believe the Returned are able to augment their Fortune Aspect the same general way the can alter their physical attributes.  Given that the prophetic ability of Atium is a Fortune effect per WOB, it would make logical sense for an augmented Fortune aspect in the Returned to manifest with them able to subconsciously select the Right Painting that will be at the Right Place at the Right Time to serve prophetic functions.  I even would not be surprised to find out that Endowment is manipulating things intentionally to make that possible.