[OB] Um... Is she actually dead?

[TheDoomsday]

I know Brandon doesn't mind using dead characters as flashbacks, but... I was expecting a grand reveal later in the book.

Bit disappointed honestly. At least Venli is cool.

[RShara]

Yes she is dead and gone. Brandon isn’t allowed to bring her back.

[Guest]

Yup. She is.

Though I really began to like Venli. She's no Eshonai, but I am more than happy with her as a 'replacement'. Wow, that sounds much worse than it was meant.

Edited January 2, 2018 by SLNC

[TheDoomsday]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Yup. She is.

Though I really began to like Venli. She's no Eshonai, but I am more than happy with her as a 'replacement'. Wow, that sounds much worse than it was meant.

Look, I'm not saying Eshonai's death is a problem. Characters need to die. It advances the story.

I just found it unexpected and surprising.

I'm preparing a long post that details everything that I thought of Oathbringer. I literally finished it 10 minutes ago, and I'm bursting to discuss with the forums about what I though of the book as a whole.

(Best book in the series BTW)

[RShara]

To be fair, Brandon’s been hinting that a flashback character would die for quite some time. There’re a couple of threads that have some good thoughts as to why eshonai died

[el_warko]

I thought she was Venli's spren.

Edited January 2, 2018 by el_warko
superfluous words

[RShara]

5 minutes ago, el_warko said:

I thought she was Venli's spren.

Nope. Timbre says her grandfather died in the Recreance

[Toaster Retribution]

R.I.P

[TheDoomsday]

47 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

R.I.P

Let's have a moment of silence.

On a side note, the main characters have always been flashback characters. Since Eshonai is dead, I think the star character for book 4 will be Venli, with Eshonai as the flashbacks.

[Isilel]

10 hours ago, RShara said:

To be fair, Brandon’s been hinting that a flashback character would die for quite some time.

True, but according to this:

http://faq.brandonsanderson.com/node/467

it was originally supposed to be Szeth. I.e.:

" Szeth originally died permanently in the end of Words of Radiance.".

Sanderson's decision to bring him back to life caused a chain of consequences that strongly influenced certain aspects of OB, IMHO. Eshonai's death was likely one of them, as somebody who seemingly fell to their death needed to actually die; Nale's expanded powers (as he had to somehow foresee exactly when and where Szeth would fall in order to revive him), was probably another. Etc.

Personally, I think that Sanderson should have gone with his original intention as Szeth's re-integration into the plot often felt awkward and contrived, despite his undeniable chemistry with Nightblood and Lift, but IMHO, YMMV.

Edited January 2, 2018 by Isilel

[Govir]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

True, but according to this:

http://faq.brandonsanderson.com/node/467

it was originally supposed to be Szeth. I.e.:

" Szeth originally died permanently in the end of Words of Radiance.".

Sanderson's decision to bring him back to life caused a chain of consequences that strongly influenced certain aspects of OB, IMHO. Eshonai's death was likely one of them, as somebody who seemingly fell to their death needed to actually die; Nale's expanded powers (as he had to somehow to foresee exactly when and where Szeth would fall in order to revive him), probably another. Etc.

Personally, I think that Sanderson should have gone with his original intention as Szeth's re-integration into the plot often felt awkward and contrived, despite his undeniable chemistry with Nightblood and Lift, but IMHO, YMMV.

While the re-introduction of Szeth to the other main cast was a bit awkward, I think having him be alive is the best way to tell us about the Skybreakers and what they're up to.

Also, I just did a reread and Szeth's meeting with the main cast wasn't as bad as the first read. He first approaches Lift, who he's already interacted with on "friendly" (read not deadly murder intent) terms. He flies around helping to retrieve the Ruby (King's Drop, I think?), but is still only interacting with Lift. After that is delivered, he's at the meeting with the other Knight Radiants, but is not outwardly hostile. Jasnah comments that the "storming Assassin in White" is here, and Szeth responds that Dalinar is now his master.

[maxal]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

True, but according to this:

http://faq.brandonsanderson.com/node/467

it was originally supposed to be Szeth. I.e.:

" Szeth originally died permanently in the end of Words of Radiance.".

Sanderson's decision to bring him back to life caused a chain of consequences that strongly influenced certain aspects of OB, IMHO. Eshonai's death was likely one of them, as somebody who seemingly fell to their death needed to actually die; Nale's expanded powers (as he had to somehow to foresee exactly when and where Szeth would fall in order to revive him), probably another. Etc.

Personally, I think that Sanderson should have gone with his original intention as Szeth's re-integration into the plot often felt awkward and contrived, despite his undeniable chemistry with Nightblood and Lift, but IMHO, YMMV.

I did not know this...

I was personally disappointed at how easily Szeth was accepted within the group of Radiant as if "being a Radiant" automatically made you "superior", "better", "trustworthy" and "it erases your past crimes".

Also, I never thought I would say this... but there are too many Radiant viewpoints within those books  Every single character of importance or importance to come is...  Radiant. 

[Jace]

am i the only one who doesn´t like Venli?

 

[Yata]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I did not know this...

I was personally disappointed at how easily Szeth was accepted within the group of Radiant as if "being a Radiant" automatically made you "superior", "better", "trustworthy" and "it erases your past crimes".

Also, I never thought I would say this... but there are too many Radiant viewpoints within those books  Every single character of importance or importance to come is...  Radiant. 

Because they assume be' a Radiant made you trustworthy...the Truth will became clear Soon but for now they have a false opinion of he Radiant's status.

I am not disappointed by the Radiants's numbers... It's clear that different from others magic there is a "free access" to the Orders and in the context they are...many Spren would join to the Battle, It would be unlikely to not have a great Number of Radiants to me

[maxal]

15 minutes ago, Yata said:

Because they assume be' a Radiant made you trustworthy...the Truth will became clear Soon but for now they have a false opinion of he Radiant's status.

I am not disappointed by the Radiants's numbers... It's clear that different from others magic there is a "free access" to the Orders and in the context they are...many Spren would join to the Battle, It would be unlikely to not have a great Number of Radiants to me

But Szeth killed Gavilar and half of Jah Keved. I would think his return wouldn't be so readily accepted. It made no sense to me.

It isn't the fact we see a lot of Radiants which disappoints me, it is the fact we have too many viewpoints which are Radiants. In fact, every single viewpoint of importance is a Radiant. All characters allowed to be one of the three main in any given books are Radiants. I also feel having the second arc main characters being active now just prolonged the focus onto the Radiants.

I don't know. Being a Radiant suddenly got less interesting to me in OB than it was before. It no longer feels special, especially with Lopen and Teft being ones. And Szeth everyone gladly welcomes back. I liked when Skar couldn't become a squire. I guess I would have liked if not every single minor character wasn't on his/her way towards being a Radiant. Sure, we still have Adolin and Navani, but they both are pretty much into the background, not really on the forefront nor getting any development.

[TheDoomsday]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

But Szeth killed Gavilar and half of Jah Keved. I would think his return wouldn't be so readily accepted. It made no sense to me.

It isn't the fact we see a lot of Radiants which disappoints me, it is the fact we have too many viewpoints which are Radiants. In fact, every single viewpoint of importance is a Radiant. All characters allowed to be one of the three main in any given books are Radiants. I also feel having the second arc main characters being active now just prolonged the focus onto the Radiants.

I don't know. Being a Radiant suddenly got less interesting to me in OB than it was before. It no longer feels special, especially with Lopen and Teft being ones. And Szeth everyone gladly welcomes back. I liked when Skar couldn't become a squire. I guess I would have liked if not every single minor character wasn't on his/her way towards being a Radiant. Sure, we still have Adolin and Navani, but they both are pretty much into the background, not really on the forefront nor getting any development.

Teft and Lopen personally annoyed me. Lopen especially felt like a slap in the face to people like Kaladin and Shallan, people who lived horrifying lives in order to redeem themselves as radiants.

I think it would have been better to just leave them as squires, honestly. And for Skar to not even be one, like you said. We need more main viewpoints about people that are out of their league with all this Radiant stuff. Adolin was so fun to read in OB because of this.

I could spend days talking about Oathbringer lol.

[Bort]

@maxal I think we're going to see the fallout from Szeth joining the Radiants in book 4. I can see why Brandon didn't want to weigh down the ending with everyone's reactions (which will be complicated) right at the end of the book.

[Storms!]

Was I the only one that was pumped that she died? I thought she was the most boring character in WoR. Venli is significantly more interesting, and to be honest, I was very nervous that they would find her still alive down in the chasms. Such a relief

[RShara]

4 hours ago, maxal said:

I did not know this...

I was personally disappointed at how easily Szeth was accepted within the group of Radiant as if "being a Radiant" automatically made you "superior", "better", "trustworthy" and "it erases your past crimes".

Also, I never thought I would say this... but there are too many Radiant viewpoints within those books  Every single character of importance or importance to come is...  Radiant. 

As I mentioned in another thread, it's Vader syndrome.  As Harry Dresden said,

Quote

"There's no ally so impressive, encouraging, and well loved as an ally who was an enemy that made you shake in your boots a couple of minutes ago."

 

[digitalbusker]

43 minutes ago, TheDoomsday said:

Teft and Lopen personally annoyed me. Lopen especially felt like a slap in the face to people like Kaladin and Shallan, people who lived horrifying lives in order to redeem themselves as radiants.

Being a handicapped member of a low-status minority group relegated to a horrible violent death for reasons we still don't know is exactly the kind of easy "blossoms and cake" life that should preclude you being able to bond a spren, sure.

But seriously: there's no Radiant Lopen without Kaladin. Rua never would have found the Lopen on his own (if he even decided to go looking for somebody to bond, without Syl's example). The first crop of Radiants are exceptional (in good and bad ways), not because you have to be exceptional to be a Radiant, but because that made them easy to find.

[Isilel]

5 hours ago, Govir said:

While the re-introduction of Szeth to the other main cast was a bit awkward, I think having him be alive is the best way to tell us about the Skybreakers and what they're up to.

I am sure that Sanderson planned to do so through another PoV while he still intended to kill Szeth. A new character, or maybe even Nale himself.

My main problem with Szeth's survival are all the reprecussions - like, how it required Nale to have a Hoid-like ability to be in the right place at the right time to ressurect him, how it necessitated Eshonai's death instead to maintain at least some sense of danger to the PoV characters, how we now ended up with _3_ mass murderers among the founding 10 new Radiants (which is a bit over the top, if you ask me, even if redemption is great), how it currently feels very contrived that Szeth joining Dalinar didn't explode the alliance and/or that Dalinar is still somehow unaware of the full extent of the damning stuff that Szeth knows about Taravangian. Etc., etc.

P.S. Oh, and I have forgotten the re-writing of the published ending of Kaladin - Szeth fight, which has been replaced with something really awkward and illogical. Of course, Nale being able to heal a shardblade death with a fabrial was also over the top.

All in all change of Szeth's fate comes with a very high price tag, narrative-wise. YMMV. 

Edited January 2, 2018 by Isilel

[teknopathetic]

Keep in mind that the Listeners don't really die in the same way. Estonia was a hero, and likely her Spren is on Braize right now. Thats a perspective we need to see. 

[RShara]

19 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Keep in mind that the Listeners don't really die in the same way. Estonia was a hero, and likely her Spren is on Braize right now. Thats a perspective we need to see. 

/pedantry

Her Cognitive Shadow *might* be on Braize, not her spren

Though I don't think so, because the Fused don't return to Braize on death any more.  And she isn't nearly as invested as the Fused are, so she's probably happy in the Beyond.

[teknopathetic]

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

/pedantry

Her Cognitive Shadow *might* be on Braize, not her spren

Though I don't think so, because the Fused don't return to Braize on death any more.  And she isn't nearly as invested as the Fused are, so she's probably happy in the Beyond.

Those who distinguish themselves in battle get to fight again in the afterlife according to the major religion on Roshar. It would make sense that Eshonai distinguished herself enough to remain a cognitive shadow. Odium doesn't trust her, so she sent allowed to remain on Roshar.

Just my idea, but spren Eshnoai gives us a lot of narrative avenues. 

Also, Roshar refers to all Cognitive shadow like things as Spren. Its also unclear to what extent VoidSpren are spren, or something else.

Edited January 2, 2018 by teknopathetic

[RShara]

Just now, teknopathetic said:

Those who distinguish themselves in battle get to fight again in the afterlife according to the major religion on Roshar. It would make sense that Eshonai distinguished herself enough to remain a cognitive shadow. Odium doesn't trust her, so she sent allowed to remain on Roshar.

Just my idea, but spren Eshnoai gives us a lot of narrative avenues. 

But Eshonai fought against Odium deep down.  Ulim criticizes her for this, and didn't show a bit of notice to Eshonai's body.  I don't see why Odium would Invest in Eshonai enough to let her stick around as a Cognitive Shadow.  You said Odium doesn't trust her, so it's even less likely that he would Invest in her enough to let her remain.  Cognitive Shadows aren't normally just created because someone is brave.  They must have an infusion of Investiture in order to remain, rather than going Beyond.

Far better to let her move Beyond and not have to worry about her at all.

 

Also, Brandon has said that Eshonai is dead and gone.  And for various reasons, he is not allowed to bring her back in any way, on pain of lectures and stern looks.