[OB] Do you think Jasnah likes Kaladin?

[Razrback16]

You know, I've been wondering about this myself as I've been reading Oathbringer for the first time. While Jasnah & Kal don't have a lot of interaction up to this point, there are things that just got me wondering. I was originally a fan of the obvious Kal / Shallan shipping that Sanderson has going on with Adolin as sort of a 3rd wheel, but it almost seems too "set up" and "obvious" and the more I read the two of them, the less I am into them eventually getting together, which kinda got me thinking about Kaladin + Jasnah.

A few things that just sort of stood out to me while reading Oathbringer -

* Early in the book, while all of the interactions weren't shown between the Radiants, I found it noteworthy that Jasnah asks Shallan what she thinks of "The Windrunner". Just kinda strange...Jasnah is the type who generally doesn't care a lot of about other people's opinions about other people. It's just beneath her - she's a scholar, and incredibly intelligent. She forms her own opinions and doesn't generally have much interest in other people's views on a simple subject such as other people in town even if they are a Radaint. Just a little out of place and it stood out to me.

* Shallan openly wonders what Jasnah's deal is with regard to sexuality as she's basically confused by Jasnah's behavior. She notes that Jasnah has rejected a number of suitors over the years, some of which were very attractive men. She also notes that it's strange that if Jasnah is simply not interested in romance, then why in the world does she seem to care so much about her appearance - always wearing expensive / pretty clothing, adopting the latest hair styles, makeup, etc. [Generally when you have characters that are truly asexual, they simply do not care about their appearance]

* Couple the above bullet point with Jasnah's interaction with Amaram where he is physically aggressive with her and from her POV she thinks about family not always protecting their kids from everything - I certainly could be wrong, but it seemed to me she had something somewhat traumatic occur years back that may have messed her up a little bit when it came to men, making her afraid of relationships, or getting close on an emotional level. She notes this herself at a point during OB where she thinks to herself how she feels that at times she herself is too emotional, and it's implied that she just doesn't show it. So, while she maintains an outwardly scholaresque appearance for those she interacts with, she's quite emotional on the inside, just tries to focus on logic instead of emotion.

* About midway through the book where the group is going to Kholinar together, Shallan uses Lightweaving to make Elhokar look like a high born lady who looks very similar to Jasnah, and we're reading from Kaladin's POV, and he notes that he's certainly a fan of that appearance, there. So while Kaladin may have disagreements / idealistic conflict at times with Jasnah, he's certainly physically attracted to her.

The more I've thought about some of these items, I've been able to see it more as a possibility down the road, and quite honestly I like the pairing. They would need to have something happen that forced them to interact closely for a while. Jasnah doesn't like getting close to people much as we've noticed and I do think it has to do with whatever happened to her years back that's made her a little strange with regard to these types of things. Of all the books I've read, one thing that I think is fairly standard is that as you start reading a book / series, the characters of that book are presented to you in a certain way at the beginning, but as the story unfolds and the characters interact, they have a profound effect on each other and will change as the story goes on, sometimes for good and sometimes for worse. Kaladin's had issues with trust of lighteyes for good reason, and as a result he's built up some pretty significant prejudices against them. It's clear Jasnah's had some issues of her own as well that's caused her some emotional guardedness and hesitation at allowing men near her - I don't think it's unreasonable to think that with the right circumstances that would be obviously up to the author, those two characters could potentially get close to each other and may or may not lead to a romantic relationship.

I certainly won't hold my breath for it, but I do like the idea as I've come to find the Kaladin / Shallan pairing just a little too "predictable" and somewhat boring as a result. As far as the age difference between Jasnah & Kaladin, I really don't find that to be an issue, personally. He's an incredibly mature, and charismatic dude, and I think his intelligence paired with how direct he can be when emotionally triggered, might go a long way under the right circumstances with Jasnah as he's certainly not the type of guy who would ever be aggressive with her in a physical way as it sounds like she may have dealt with in the past.

Either way, it'll be interesting to see what does or doesn't happen moving forward. Sorry for the length.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Razrback16
Sp.

[Gray to he/him]

I think they don't like each other because they're Ideals clash. We know Kaladins Ideals are all about protection and saving as many people as possible. We don't know what Jasnahs Ideals are but based off her POVs, I think its something like doing whatever is necessary in order to do what's right. I mean she was ready to kill Renarin at the end. And she suggested killing all the parshmen which was totally against Kaladins Ideals.

[The Harlem Worldhoppers he/him]

16 minutes ago, Gray to said:

I think they don't like each other because they're Ideals clash. We know Kaladins Ideals are all about protection and saving as many people as possible. We don't know what Jasnahs Ideals are but based off her POVs, I think its something like doing whatever is necessary in order to do what's right. I mean she was ready to kill Renarin at the end. And she suggested killing all the parshmen which was totally against Kaladins Ideals.

Yeah,  I think Kaladin's oath progression will be kind of like a triage process. "Protect those you can" sort of thing. I think he and Jasnah will develop a mutual respect as two individuals who have to make difficult choices for the greater good. Jasnah and Kaladin's ideals are quite similar when you boil things down. I think Jasnah as queen will make Kaladin the highprince of Sadeas' princedom next book. The values of the windrunners are protection and leadership so what better position could Kaladin protect his people from than as their leader. This would also fit into Dalinar and Kaladin's prison conversation where Dalinar tells Kaladin to set an example and show that Darkeyes can lead.

So basically I don't think things will be romantic between them but I could see them becoming close in other ways. Kaladin and Shallan on the other hand...

[goody153]

I'd like Jasnah/Kaladin to happen if possible simple because of that "Hesina being secretly a sister to the queen" theory but if i'm being honest. 

As of the moment i doubt that Jasnah likes Kaladin romantically but Jasnah is possibly fond or she does admire Kaladin(not in a level of crush) considering that Jasnah is fond with people who are genuinely well-intentioned. Dalinar is a big example of this she doesn't just respect Dalinar because she's his uncle or they share similar views but because she thinks his uncle is genuinely well-intentioned. Even Renarin was the same(think she's more fond of renarin than her own brother Elhokar)

So at the very least Jasnah respects Kaladin but i doubt that angle could go somewhere

[vikorr]

Kaladin and Jasnah are worlds apart in relation to how best to deal with the world. This disagreement isn't just be about their personalities, but their spren also.

- Can anyone really see Kaladin and Jasnah agreeing to have someone assassinated just because they are a threat to Jasnah's family?

- Can anyone really see Kaladin and Jasnah agreeing to summary execution of thieves?

- Can anyone really see Kaladin and Jasnah agreeing to collateral damage in order to win?

How can you get past that and have a romantic relationship?

[Vissy]

I don't necessarily see them ending up together. If they do, both would have to change as people, which isn't impossible of course - character development is a thing - but it would take some steps before a romance. Insofar as what OP said, I'm of two minds. I think that Jasnah is clearly interested in Kaladin, though that interest could mean many things. It could mean that she is interested in him because she wants to be sure that he isn't a threat to her family with his brash attitude, or because his attitude and bearing is very different from how she imagines darkeyes to be. It could be anything. However, Jasnah never smiles without genuine emotion. This was confirmed by Dalinar in the chapter that was directly before the one where Kaladin and Jasnah had their little (I have to say, strangely cuddling-centered) word spar. 

In short, I think Jasnah does like Kaladin, based on what little she knows about him. He's saved her family more times than one after all. 

[goody153]

Yeah i think she at least respects/likes(none-romantic sense) Kaladin simply because his protective streak to his family, his general innocent kindness towards others and well Kaladin is the freaking Stormblessed he has the magnetism where he just looks like the herald of the old.

He is basically the living windrunner ideals.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Can Kaladin and Jasnah have the type of platonic friendship that was postulated at the start of this thread and still be married for Politics sake? Is it possible for those two states to not be mutually exclusive? Just spitballing on that. 

Anyway, some thoughts. One, I doubt that Jasnah is asexual. I think she's driven and focused. I believe that she determined the life she wanted to lead from an early age; that life wasn't compatible with the role a princess typically occupies in a patriarchal monarchy. I assume that the men she was pressured to marry would not have allowed her to persue her passion if Amaram is anything to judge by. I have to note that Alethi nobility expects much more from their females than broodmares and homekeepers, yet I don't see any Alethi male of rank high enough to court Jasnah being in any way able to see her intelligence and focus as anything but a threat. They would seek to lessen her. Even if this is not strictly true I can imagine her coming to believe this. She may have felt it far better to avoid the issue altogether. And at 35, she is well set in her ways.

As far as Jasnah and Kaladin together I can see possibilities from romance to outright hostility and everything in between. But I believe the most likely result is friendship and bff status. Looking at it from Jasnah's POV, look at what she values in people. Intelligence is obvious, probably due to what she believes to be her strongest attribute. It defines her and allows her to defy convention. She could not live in the manner she chooses to without being smart. So she looks for intelligence in those she chooses to associate with and does not suffer foolishness. Another thing she values is honesty and sincerity. I think we can attribute this to her unknown childhood trauma and growing up at court. Deception everywhere and on every side, she fervently wished and wishes for something in her life to be true. Her life mission became to persue truth. She rejected religion because she saw little truth in what the ardents taught. Finally, that's why she likes Dalinar despite him not being a genius, he's the most sincere person she knows. It's a large part of why she hates Amaram; she saw through his golden reputation and despised his deceptive nature.

It's clear to me why Kaladin comes up in shipping conversations regarding Jasnah. He is the only character we've seen on-screen that possesses the traits Jasnah would value in a mate, currently unattached and not family. The May-December aspect trips up some readers; for others that doesn't raise an eyebrow. However, friendship or more is entirely plausible given that Kaladin is as intelligent as Shallan albeit with a different specialty and as sincere and honest as Dalinar.

[Angsos]

Until Kaladin can get over the fact he let her brother die, I think he'll be hiding from Jasnah.

[goody153]

11 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

. Finally, that's why she likes Dalinar despite him not being a genius, he's the most sincere person she knows. It's a large part of why she hates Amaram; she saw through his golden reputation and despised his deceptive nature.

It's clear to me why Kaladin comes up in shipping conversations regarding Jasnah. He is the only character we've seen on-screen that possesses the traits Jasnah would value in a mate, currently unattached and not family. The May-December aspect trips up some readers; for others that doesn't raise an eyebrow. However, friendship or more is entirely plausible given that Kaladin is as intelligent as Shallan albeit with a different specialty and as sincere and honest as Dalinar.

Yeah 

[Magpro]

On ‎17‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 0:18 PM, Vissy said:

I don't necessarily see them ending up together. If they do, both would have to change as people, which isn't impossible of course - character development is a thing - but it would take some steps before a romance. Insofar as what OP said, I'm of two minds. I think that Jasnah is clearly interested in Kaladin, though that interest could mean many things. It could mean that she is interested in him because she wants to be sure that he isn't a threat to her family with his brash attitude, or because his attitude and bearing is very different from how she imagines darkeyes to be. It could be anything. However, Jasnah never smiles without genuine emotion. This was confirmed by Dalinar in the chapter that was directly before the one where Kaladin and Jasnah had their little (I have to say, strangely cuddling-centered) word spar. 

In short, I think Jasnah does like Kaladin, based on what little she knows about him. He's saved her family more times than one after all. 

I agree. They will be working together now that she is the Queen and he will be responsible for the King/Queesn's Guard. I believe they will develop a friendship/respect (next book), and maybe relationship over a long time (era 2) although i won't bet on it. There could very easily be new character introduced which will become the romantic interest for Kaladin.

[Angsos]

In addition to the whole Elokhar debacle I cited above, we also need to know more about this Tarah person and the situation before making Kaladin prince-consort or something

[Calderis he/him]

I'm still curious why either of these characters need a romantic relationship at all. 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I'm still curious why either of these characters need a romantic relationship at all. 

I don't think either character necessarily needs a romantic relationship. However, both characters are described as quite attractive. At one point Shallan describes Jasnah as an Ideal Alethi female. She describes Kaladin as a work of art. Both are healthy, strong, and seem like good people. They have many admirers and it seems like a stretch that neither will come across someone that attracts their interest in turn. Neither seems the type to engage in casual relationships, Jasnah because the price is too high, Kaladin because he is an absolutist. Do they need a love interest? No. But it's unrealistic to say that neither one will fall into one at some point.

[Calderis he/him]

7 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I don't think either character necessarily needs a romantic relationship. However, both characters are described as quite attractive. At one point Shallan describes Jasnah as an Ideal Alethi female. She describes Kaladin as a work of art. Both are healthy, strong, and seem like good people. They have many admirers and it seems like a stretch that neither will come across someone that attracts their interest in turn. Neither seems the type to engage in casual relationships, Jasnah because the price is too high, Kaladin because he is an absolutist. Do they need a love interest? No. But it's unrealistic to say that neither one will fall into one at some point.

I disagree. They are both the type to put their goals/duties above their own emotional desires. 

As both characters stand right now, I don't see either of them being interested in a relationship. Jasnah, just from sheer lack of desire. Kaladin from inability to commit time to anything outside his duties. 

Hell, Kaladin can't set his duties aside well enough to maintain his friendships, let alone a romantic one. 

[ZenBossanova]

I am not (yet) convinced about their compatibility, but a little while back, I looked at the simple political necessity of a political marriage between them, from a purely political/historical perspective, and for the stability of the kingdom, it is going to be important, and Jasnah knows this. 

Kaladin is (unwittingly) accumulating too much power, and historically, the best way to contain that, is marriage. 

I explained this is more detail in my post 

Romance aside, there are some political reasons it will be important. 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

As matters stand at the end of OB, neither Jasnah or Kaladin have the time or inclination to pursue a romantic relationship with anyone, that's absolutely true. But the next book has a year break in between. Who knows what type of breaks book 5 will have. Then we have the break between the front half SA and the back half. It needs not happen immediately. 

Then we must look at the pressures each of them will face. Jasnah is enough a student of history to know she needs to produce an heir to solidify her position. Otherwise baby Gavinor could become a real wedge for a kingdom that's only 2 generations old. Ialai is still out there and she has the motivation and the means to wreck Alethkar and watch the world burn. For Kaladin his pressures are two-fold. One is securing his newfound power both as the head of a prominent Radient Order and as a political force in order to help Dalinar in the fight versus Odium. The second is more human. With war, especially total war, typically comes a biological imperative to reproduce. Look to post WW2 for examples of rapid population growth both during and after war. As much as Kaladin acts as though he's above it all he is still human and thus subject to that biological imperative. 

Now that isn't to say they end up a couple, only that someone will get a love interest eventually.

[Calderis he/him]

@Bigmikey357 or Jasnah can continue on exactly as it is, with Gavinor as the Heir, with literally no change in the line of succession. 

[ZenBossanova]

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Bigmikey357 or Jasnah can continue on exactly as it is, with Gavinor as the Heir, with literally no change in the line of succession. 

Assuming there are no problems that come up. Better to be prepared. Historically, that works better than hoping for the best. 

[goody153]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

I'm still curious why either of these characters need a romantic relationship at all. 

Do they need romantic relationship ? So far both are incredible characters without the need for romance. So far Kaladin only truly needed Syl as his emotional support in his darkest moments inwhich no doubt she'll continue to act as his psychiatrist/best-friend/adviser. Jasnah is incredibly self-sufficient in all aspects almost to a mary-sue level(just almost not quite since he has glaring flaws).

Can they grow more as character ? Definitely both of them can still do so. Kaladin can still grow as a person in terms of leadership as the new leader of the Windrunners and his personal demons. We know Jasnah also has her own problems to deal as well. 

Will romance benefit them ? Yes, if Sanderson writes it well which he has shown that his main character benefitting from romantic relationship with Dalinar/Navani being an example without hurting their personal grown.

Now the romance doesn't have to be specifically both of them. Kaladin can simply get another character for him and Jasnah as well or maybe she doesn't it's fine either way. But so far Sanderson has given enough grounds for then to possibly start(it doesn't have to be spontaneous it can be within a long length of time).

And just like @ZenBossanova says 

Quote

I am not (yet) convinced about their compatibility, but a little while back, I looked at the simple political necessity of a political marriage between them, from a purely political/historical perspective, and for the stability of the kingdom, it is going to be important, and Jasnah knows this. 

Kaladin is (unwittingly) accumulating too much power, and historically, the best way to contain that, is marriage. 

this can be a reasonable justification for it. Granted with enough personal development and actual time for them to develop. We have 7 more books after all, it can happen. It might not but it certainly can.

Not all romantic progress has to be spontaneous fiery passionate one. It can be satisfying slow-burn

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, goody153 said:

Do they need romantic relationship ? So far both are incredible characters without the need for romance. So far Kaladin only truly needed Syl as his emotional support in his darkest moments inwhich no doubt she'll continue to act as his psychiatrist/best-friend/adviser. Jasnah is incredibly self-sufficient in all aspects almost to a mary-sue level(just almost not quite since he has glaring flaws).

Can they grow more as character ? Definitely both of them can still do so. Kaladin can still grow as a person in terms of leadership as the new leader of the Windrunners and his personal demons. We know Jasnah also has her own problems to deal as well. 

Will romance benefit them ? Yes, if Sanderson writes it well which he has shown that his main character benefitting from romantic relationship with Dalinar/Navani being an example without hurting their personal grown.

Now the romance doesn't have to be specifically both of them. Kaladin can simply get another character for him and Jasnah as well or maybe she doesn't it's fine either way. But so far Sanderson has given enough grounds for then to possibly start(it doesn't have to be spontaneous it can be within a long length of time).

And just like @ZenBossanova says 

this can be a reasonable justification for it. Granted with enough personal development and actual time for them to develop. We have 7 more books after all, it can happen. It might not but it certainly can.

Not all romantic progress has to be spontaneous fiery passionate one. It can be satisfying slow-burn

My issue, much more in Jasnah's case than Kaladin's, is why remaining unattached isn't a valid option. 

[goody153]

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

My issue, much more in Jasnah's case than Kaladin's, is why remaining unattached isn't a valid option. 

I'm on both sides in this. I think she is fine remaining solo but she can also be fine with one eventually(as i said not all romance has to be spontaneous passionate ones in a short span of time) it can develop overtime and if Dalinar/Navani took more than half their lifetime and after 4 childrens later to happen so can anybody(granted Sanderson cheated on this one by skipping the basic steps with them having an established relationship lol)

I think Jasnah can still grow from her isolation. She's shown hints of stigma with the opposite sex it seems but if she really has the stigma(assuming the hints i picked up seems right) we know how Sanderson has been approaching the characters personal demons so far. They ended up facing their dilemma upfront and solving it through acceptance not through denial and ignorance.

Kaladin will indeed benefit more with a romantic relationship than Jasnah but we could be wrong since we don't know enough about her. We need more information maybe in her flashback book we'll know

Edited June 19, 2018 by goody153

[ZenBossanova]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

My issue, much more in Jasnah's case than Kaladin's, is why remaining unattached isn't a valid option. 

Personally and emotionally, this is debateably true, but from a political/historical perspective, she will not have that luxury. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by ZenBossanova

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Bigmikey357 or Jasnah can continue on exactly as it is, with Gavinor as the Heir, with literally no change in the line of succession. 

So do you discount Ialai as a potential threat to Jasnah's rule? What about the other Highprinces? They have shown that they aren't a particularly unified lot, at least without someone like the Blackthorn to keep them in line. And with Dalinar having his attention set on Odium and the continued refounding of the Knights Radient, one thing that's certain is that someone will try Jasnah. Gavinor is such an obvious lever to use against her. Having her own heir would somewhat mitigate that problem and decrease the kid's threat. That way she won't have to do something terribly pragmatic and act against her natural instincts as protector of family. Having a respected male consort would help her just as much; female rulers aren't exactly common in Alethi history.

Maybe you are in the camp that doesn't want Jasnah to form a romantic attachment and that's fine. She could be written that way and Jasnah finds another way to mitigate what I see is an obvious problem. She's smart enough to realize that there are issues and how she chooses to solve them may not be typical. I guess we'll see.

[Argel he/him]

On 6/17/2018 at 5:02 AM, vikorr said:

- Can anyone really see Kaladin and Jasnah agreeing to summary execution of thieves?

No, but Jasnah is smart enough to know that power can get to her, and having someone as a check against that could be a good thing. We've seen that the smarter Mr T  gets the less empathy he has. While that's likely in large part due to the Nightwatcher's curse, it does stand out as an example of the dangers of taking logic too far. WOuld the Jasnah at the end of OB killed those thieves? Would the Jasnah that killed those thieves killed Renarin? I think we've seen a small shift in Jasnah. There are definitely potential problems for the two, but I don't think they are insurmountable. 

Regarding if either of them needs a romantic relationship, Sly tells Kal he does. Ivory's comments to Jasnah may get her thinking about it. 

Regarding the OP's premise, Kaladin has a lot going for him in that he has overall been a good protector of her family. Not just in saving lives -- he also took Renarin into Bridge Four (which she might put on equal footing with saving family member lives).  Also, in that same "Notes" meeting Kaladin talks to Dalinar in a way few ever would/could (and survive), but more importantly actually sways Dalinar to considering negotiating an end to the war. Dalinar is arguably the man she admires most (at least that's still alive), so that whole interactive likely raises her overall opinion of him.  Kaladin is smart, is not intimidated by her, is accepting of others for who they are (even lighteyes), and has earned the trust of maybe everyone in her family. And now he has Land as well. That does seem to make him ideal (also, being a KR doesn't hurt). 

With that said, I'm not sure Kaladin would enter into a "just friends" relationship. And I don't see how Jasnah goes into a "just friends" relationship with someone she is friends with that she respects and trusts that does not evolve into a romantic relationship (assuming she's heterosexual). 

Also, maybe she feels she can get all of the benefits of Kaladin's friendship and trust just the way things are. Though if pressed to marry, Kaladin seems like an obvious choice.